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Getting people out of NPC corporations

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nVus Antollare
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#41 - 2015-01-30 18:42:38 UTC
If it makes any of you feel better, CAS corps fleet has had AWOX in fleets and it made us feel very special Big smile y'all are invited to join any of the CAS special interest groups and share your perspective and experiences with us in any and all aspects of your own gaming style.

It doesn't have to be an Us or Them/Carrot or Stick. You'd be more than welcome to take groups of CAS or any NPC corps on tour of your sovereignty wormholes or gate camps, we'd love that. Some of us might stay.

Envy out o7
Hopelesshobo
Hoboland
#42 - 2015-01-30 20:05:56 UTC
The one thing I am curious about, is how many players in the NPC corporations are simply scouts/alts for other people and they don't bother leaving the NPC corporation because it's primary purpose is to just light up local, so who cares?

Lowering the average to make you look better since 2012.
Jenshae Chiroptera
#43 - 2015-01-30 20:16:31 UTC
The rage for asking a few questions was pretty surprising. Smile

Going to work on the OP to try steer this more into a discussion.

CCP - Building ant hills and magnifying glasses for fat kids

Not even once

EVE is becoming shallow and puerile; it will satisfy neither the veteran nor the "WoW" type crowd in the transition.
Mag's
Azn Empire
#44 - 2015-01-30 21:19:34 UTC
Jenshae Chiroptera wrote:
The rage for asking a few questions was pretty surprising.
Which just goes to show the ignorance you have, for the game and it's player base.

Destination SkillQueue:- It's like assuming the Lions will ignore you in the Savannah, if you're small, fat and look helpless.
admiral root
Red Galaxy
#45 - 2015-01-30 21:33:54 UTC
I don't like NPC corps. For the most part, they're just somewhere for people to hide because parts of the game scare them or something. Whatever. You can increase the tax rate, you can restrict x, y and z, but none of these things will make the majority of the chickens join real corps. What will happen is that as each individual reaches their maximum tolerance for increased penalties for their cowardice, they'll quit the game. Whether or not that's good for the health of Eve is another debate entirely and not relevant to this thread.

What you can do is entice *some* of the NPCs into becoming real people. Shooting them in the face is a good way to do that. Maybe CCP can do some things, too, but honestly I don't think it'd be worth them investing too much time in it because ultimately it comes down to us players to show NPCs the light.

No, your rights end in optimal+2*falloff
AeonOfTime
Syrkos Technologies
#46 - 2015-01-30 22:21:54 UTC
I don't see what the bloody fuss is about. EVE is a sandbox, you can do whatever you like - staying in an NPC corp for 10 years is a valid game mechanic, just like ganking. I know quite a few folks who are still having a blast playing after years in an NPC corp... Sounds to me like you feel threatened by these players somehow, to wish to force them out of there.

Play and let play.

Lone wolf and nomad extraordinaire. eve.aeonoftime.com
Jenshae Chiroptera
#47 - 2015-01-30 22:35:58 UTC  |  Edited by: Jenshae Chiroptera
AeonOfTime wrote:
I don't see what the bloody fuss is about.
Incursion alts and the impact they have on the economy is one example.

(I like how I have gone from "theme park carebear" to being "toxic", though. What will be the next label of the day do you guys think?) Lol

CCP - Building ant hills and magnifying glasses for fat kids

Not even once

EVE is becoming shallow and puerile; it will satisfy neither the veteran nor the "WoW" type crowd in the transition.
Mag's
Azn Empire
#48 - 2015-01-30 23:44:43 UTC
Jenshae Chiroptera wrote:
I like how I have gone from "theme park carebear" to being "toxic", though.
Gone from? It's one and the same.

Destination SkillQueue:- It's like assuming the Lions will ignore you in the Savannah, if you're small, fat and look helpless.
Hopelesshobo
Hoboland
#49 - 2015-01-31 00:32:21 UTC
Jenshae Chiroptera wrote:
Incursion alts and the impact they have on the economy is one example.


One of the first things that people get told when they start running incursions, is to get out of an NPC corp because of the 10% tax. Lol

1 man corporations do wonders.

Lowering the average to make you look better since 2012.
Jenshae Chiroptera
#50 - 2015-01-31 00:42:18 UTC
Hopelesshobo wrote:
1 man corporations do wonders.
Just as bad for the hassle of declaring war on them.
There should be a minimum number and activity requirement after the first two weeks.

CCP - Building ant hills and magnifying glasses for fat kids

Not even once

EVE is becoming shallow and puerile; it will satisfy neither the veteran nor the "WoW" type crowd in the transition.
Cadelanne Lennelluc
Doomheim
#51 - 2015-01-31 00:48:52 UTC
If you put the players out of the NPC corporation, where are you going to place them ? you can't put them in a random corporation.

If they just leave and have no corp, you can't wardec them either.
Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
#52 - 2015-01-31 00:49:19 UTC
Hopelesshobo wrote:
Jenshae Chiroptera wrote:
Incursion alts and the impact they have on the economy is one example.


One of the first things that people get told when they start running incursions, is to get out of an NPC corp because of the 10% tax. Lol

1 man corporations do wonders.


Clearly, the only appropriate response is to buff suicide ganking.

That, or make incursion sites functional lowsec. I mean, honestly, if CONCORD isn't going to bother responding to twenty thousand Sansha ships, they damn sure shouldn't show up if I try and scram somebody.

"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."

One of ours, ten of theirs.

Best Meltdown Ever.
Anhenka
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#53 - 2015-01-31 00:50:22 UTC
Jenshae Chiroptera wrote:
Hopelesshobo wrote:
1 man corporations do wonders.
Just as bad for the hassle of declaring war on them.
There should be a minimum number and activity requirement after the first two weeks.

So my alt corp for my miners/researchers/drug prodcucers/PI alts that might sit completely Idle for months at a time shouldn't be permitted because it's not "active" enough?

It's scary that someone like you actually has significant backing in the game.

Well as significant as Provi gets.
Jenshae Chiroptera
#54 - 2015-01-31 01:31:42 UTC  |  Edited by: Jenshae Chiroptera
Anhenka wrote:
Well as significant as Provi gets.
Provi is voting for Core as far as I know. I won't be beating on that drum.
You know, as well as I do, that a corp made as a tax dodge that is hollow is not how the corp system is intended to work.
Cadelanne Lennelluc wrote:
If you put the players out of the NPC corporation, where are you going to place them ? you can't put them in a random corporation.
If they just leave and have no corp, you can't wardec them either.
They won't be pushed out.
They will only be limited in what they can do.

NPC corps are too comfortable and too rewarding with too much protection.
As others have said though, the war declaration mechanics need an overhaul if this were implemented.

CCP - Building ant hills and magnifying glasses for fat kids

Not even once

EVE is becoming shallow and puerile; it will satisfy neither the veteran nor the "WoW" type crowd in the transition.
Eli Stan
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#55 - 2015-01-31 02:02:47 UTC
Jenshae Chiroptera wrote:
Edit:
The possible issues (consider this in the eyes of CCP and the concepts they have for their game):

- NPC corps are too comfortable, veterans remain there from day one to the day they quit, not exploring other ways of play the game.
- Gankers and scouts hide in NPC corps to not be war declared on them and to anonymise themselves.
- Null Sec alliances hide haulers in NPC corps.
- People use NPC corps to hide from wars.

There are some related problems:

- War dec mechanics
- Freedom of choice for current players.

Arrow The goal of this thread is to discuss ways of getting veterans to take the step out of NPC corps, get a group of other veterans friends with them, make new corps and nurture newbies into exploring more of the game.

/ Edit

Maybe the carrot approach with social corporations is not the best idea?

How about something that should make people scream and gnash their teeth at first but should settle down with time?

In order to fly Tech 2 & 3 ships, pirate, faction and capital ships you need to be in a private corporation.
If you quit a private corporation and go back to an NPC one, you have 24 hours to move your ships before your license to fly them is revoked.

This means the new players are free to stay there in T1 ships safely while there is a foot pushing veterans out the door.


NPC corp main here. o/ What playstyles are you suggesting I'm missing out on by being in CAS? Being a pawn subject to CTAs, paplinks and minimum logon times or face being kicked from corp? Sure. But other than that, I can't think of too much I'd need to be in a player corp to do that I can't in CAS. Bash or rep structures? Incredibly boring, but done that. Cap warfare? Been involved. Live in a wormhole, explore, mission, mine, manufacture? Done, or can do, those things. Shoot ships and be shot at? Every dang day. Okay, okay, I'm not subject to wardecs, but I use inties when I move small items and Red Frog when I move large. (Come to think of it, I could see Red Frog being the single entity most against the elimination or crippling of NPC corps.) Hung out and shot the bull on coms? Check.

(I might sound down on corps a bit, but I don't mean it in a mean way. I've had many positive interactions with players in corps. :-)
Anhenka
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#56 - 2015-01-31 02:03:16 UTC
Jenshae Chiroptera wrote:

You know, as well as I do, that a corp made as a tax dodge that is hollow is not how the corp system is intended to work.
Cadelanne Lennelluc wrote:
If you put the players out of the NPC corporation, where are you going to place them ? you can't put them in a random corporation.
If they just leave and have no corp, you can't wardec them either.
They won't be pushed out.
They will only be limited in what they can do.

NPC corps are too comfortable and too rewarding with too much protection.
As others have said though, the war declaration mechanics need an overhaul if this were implemented.

You do realize that not one of the things I mentioned would actually taxed while in an NPC corp, right?

Being in a PC corp simply allows all my alts to access the resources of a POS.

And considering the game is at least fairly sandboxy, declaring that tax shelter corps are "not how the system is intended to work" is rather silly. It is not what many would consider an optimal use of the system, but saying it's not an intended use is a bit silly when CCP does not regulate how a corp functions. It it were and CCP was opposed to tax shelters, they would implement an NPC tax even when in a player corp.
Jenshae Chiroptera
#57 - 2015-01-31 02:24:38 UTC
Anhenka wrote:
You do realize that ...
I have no interest in nit-picking this further. You know there is a huge benefit to hollow corps and NPC ones and why people use them.
You also know why if this changed people would scream for awhile but ultimately, the game would be better for it.

CCP - Building ant hills and magnifying glasses for fat kids

Not even once

EVE is becoming shallow and puerile; it will satisfy neither the veteran nor the "WoW" type crowd in the transition.
Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
#58 - 2015-01-31 02:30:32 UTC
Jenshae Chiroptera wrote:

You also know why if this changed people would scream for awhile but ultimately, the game would be better for it.


You are beyond delusional.

"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."

One of ours, ten of theirs.

Best Meltdown Ever.
Reaver Glitterstim
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#59 - 2015-01-31 06:13:10 UTC  |  Edited by: Reaver Glitterstim
I'm all for coaxing or coercing people out of NPC corps and all against forcing them out.

One of the ideas I have had was to let players join any NPC corp they want (if they meet the standings requirement), but have different tax rates in different corps, which would have wars on and off with each other. The basic four NPC corps would have no wars but a prohibitively high tax rate. Corps with only 1-2 wars against corps that are difficult to join, and who usually have the wars off, would have moderately high tax rates, while corps more frequently at war and in wars it's easy to get on the other side of would have much lower tax rates. There could be a few corps with very high standings requirements for entry which are constantly at war only with other corps that have very high standings requirements, and these may have a lowish tax rate. Others could have extremely low entry requirements, constant wars with large, easy to join corporations, and thus have very low tax rates perhaps even beating most player corps.

FT Diomedes: "Reaver, sometimes I wonder what you are thinking when you sit down to post."

Frostys Virpio: "We have to give it to him that he does put more effort than the vast majority in his idea but damn does it sometime come out of nowhere."
Anabella Rella
Gradient
Electus Matari
#60 - 2015-01-31 09:07:31 UTC
No, bad idea.

A ham-fisted approach like this would simply make players decide to quit the game. This is a video game, not a RL job. No one NEEDS Eve to put food on the table and therefore will not put up with a bunch of onerous restrictions or arbitrary rules that make the game less enjoyable. People are paying money to play and to play the way they want to (obviously within the bounds of theTOS and game mechanics). No amount of brute force coercion will ever make a player do something he/she does not want to do, They'll simply find other games in which to spend their time; games that offer them enjoyment and freedom of choice.

Also let's face it; there are a LOT of godawful player run corps out there. As a recruiter for my corp I see the often very long employment histories and hear the horror stories of people who've bounced from one bad group to the next. Maybe instead of attacking the (IMO non-) issue of players remaining in NPC corps you should be trying to do more to make player run corps better. You should also accept the fact that there are those who for whatever reason will never leave their NPC corp. Have enough respect for that person's decision and the principle of the "sandbox" to allow them to play as they wish even if you disagree.

When the world is running down, you make the best of what's still around.