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Do experimental fits have any real value for pvp?
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Schmata Bastanold
In Boobiez We Trust
#1 - 2011-12-20 13:29:14 UTC
Hi all,

Common rifter fit consists of guns, point, web, ab, plate, dc and gyro. That is what is recommended to newbies and oldies and any differences from this template are generally frown upon (at least that's my impression after reading discussions on fits submitted on battleclinic).

I like to experiment with my rifters, sometimes put MSE instead of web, sometimes I go with full gank like 3 x gyro and rigs for more gank / boosting my resists/shield regen. Reasoning for lack of web is: I am fast enough to catch'em as long as they are not able to warp out, for ganking fit: put max dmg on them and hope regen/resist will hold long enough to kill them.

Everybody knows rifters are plated and usually active repped so they load ammo and neut accordingly to exploit resists holes and make repping impossible.

Isn't it good to have a fit with a little "WTF?" factor? I find it really enjoyable to play with different fits and I am newbie enough to be surprised by some fits and I like to take my "weird" fits for a test drive and I wonder is it just a phase and sooner or later I will end up with the same fits as everobody else and only my skills can make a difference or experimenting on your own is a way to go?

Just to make it clear, I don't ask for your permission or approval (my money, my game - that's my motto). I just wanted to know what more experienced people think.

Second clarification: I am talking about rifters but I think question applies to any ship in Eve so don't grasp on name of ship.

Invalid signature format
Kulmid
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#2 - 2011-12-20 13:36:19 UTC
You want to think outside the box, but you want to use the most commonly flown frigate in all of eve?

How about start with not a rifter... your already making progress.
General Paul
Ronin Cartel
#3 - 2011-12-20 13:38:48 UTC
Yes, experiment, see what dies or lives, see what you enjoy or don't.

Then base your next ship on your experience.
vorneus
Hub2
#4 - 2011-12-20 13:40:07 UTC
I am also a fan of unexpected setups, together with unexpected ships (read: max gank and huge shield buffer Celestis :D) but the success you'll have with this kind of stuff is limited.

That doesn't make it any less fun though if it's the kind of thing you enjoy, and if it is then go for it!

As previously mentioned, I've surprised a few people with a Celestis before, together with fitting frigs for max gank and two webs instead of a point (incursus works particularly well for this, against unsuspecting rifters that rely on range dictation). You'll be surprised how many people don't try to warp off, particularly in frig fights that are over so quickly.

I generally keep my experimentation to cheap ships, for obvious reasons :) The test server is a fantastic place to get practice using unconventional setups.

Just remember, things are very different on TQ! Your "experimental" fit will likely get killed by a gang and the killmail laughed at. So long as you can deal with that eventuality, go nuts and have fun.

-Ed

This one time, I like, totally did some stuff.
Schmata Bastanold
In Boobiez We Trust
#5 - 2011-12-20 13:42:24 UTC
Kulmid wrote:
You want to think outside the box, but you want to use the most commonly flown frigate in all of eve?

How about start with not a rifter... your already making progress.


Part of my roleplaying side of Eve is being pure minnie and tried all t1 frigs from my race and surprise, surprise, I like rifter the most so I fly them. Besides, the fact rifter is most common frig is no reason to fit it just as everybody does. I would argue that not common fit on most common ship can be advantage you have.

Invalid signature format
Sven Hammerstorm
Royal Amarr Institute
Amarr Empire
#6 - 2011-12-20 13:48:48 UTC
Schmata Bastanold wrote:
fits submitted on battleclinic.



this is where you went wrong, there are many viable rifter fits. bc usually has the worst of the worst you could imagine
Schmata Bastanold
In Boobiez We Trust
#7 - 2011-12-20 13:52:29 UTC  |  Edited by: Schmata Bastanold
vorneus wrote:
I generally keep my experimentation to cheap ships, for obvious reasons :) The test server is a fantastic place to get practice using unconventional setups.

Just remember, things are very different on TQ! Your "experimental" fit will likely get killed by a gang and the killmail laughed at. So long as you can deal with that eventuality, go nuts and have fun.

-Ed


I do all my tests on TQ, things have real value there and people are more crazy over stuff so possible mistakes like not warping out are more probable.

Experimental fits are of course limited but in right situation can be better than just jack of all trades cookie cutter. I fly solo and I am aware that fitting MSE instead of web is a tradeof I have to live with and there is nobody who will provide me with web.

But so far I enjoy it so once again, I don't seek approval, I just ask out of curiosity.

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Schmata Bastanold
In Boobiez We Trust
#8 - 2011-12-20 13:58:07 UTC
Sven Hammerstorm wrote:
Schmata Bastanold wrote:
fits submitted on battleclinic.


this is where you went wrong, there are many viable rifter fits. bc usually has the worst of the worst you could imagine


I don't think I went wrong because I made my decision to go my way with fits as soon I realized fits posted there and recommended in discussions are not what I want to fly. Which in fact is equal to what you said about bc fits being flawed (to say at least).

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Lunkwill Khashour
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#9 - 2011-12-20 14:40:13 UTC
Experimental fits are sometimes viable in pvp. Surprise can be a powerful weapon. If you're just starting out however, stick to the standard fits as they're standard for a reason.

When talking about a rifter, the next fits are not what I would call 'out there', experimental, out of the box or whatever. They're still common fits:
- sar, classic tackle (aka cookie cutter)
- buffer, classic tackle (200 or 400 plate)
- med shield/full gank
- med shield/neut
- cap booster/double sar
- no web but td
- arty/mwd

The cookie cutter is the most general one but others have their advantages and disadvantages. Some require more manual piloting aswell. Experiment and practice flying with those. If you want to innovate further, go ahead, but this will get you started.
Captain Nares
O3 Corporation
#10 - 2011-12-20 16:35:43 UTC
What is "experimental fit" in a game with "adapt or die" concept What?
Zodiac TheMarketRat
Misanthropic Anthropomorphic Anthropologists
#11 - 2011-12-20 17:18:49 UTC
Schmata Bastanold wrote:
I like to experiment with my rifters, sometimes put MSE instead of web [...] Everybody knows rifters are plated and usually active repped so they load ammo and neut accordingly to exploit resists holes and make repping impossible.
The shield Rifter with AB/Scram/MSE is not an unheard of it and some people do indeed prefer it. It's not as unusual as you think it is.
Liang Nuren
No Salvation
Divine Damnation
#12 - 2011-12-20 17:24:12 UTC
vorneus wrote:
I am also a fan of unexpected setups, together with unexpected ships (read: max gank and huge shield buffer Celestis :D) but the success you'll have with this kind of stuff is limited.


You can also go mass ECCM Celestis for really ******* up a Falcon's day. I've got one with 144 sensor strength...

-Liang

I'm an idiot, don't mind me.
HachToom
Cool4Cats
#13 - 2011-12-20 17:31:39 UTC  |  Edited by: HachToom
I've always preferred my own experimentation over "cookie cutter" BC fits. sometimes they work sometimes they don't. I wonder what would happen if I fit smaller guns and a 400 plate etc , some just come from victims killmails arfter thinking "bloody hell that was tough" or by checking out the losses for someone that just beat my fit.
I get the most fun out of ships that are considered less capable, vigil , maulus , imicus etc , easier to get a fight with, but harder to win with....

every now and then you'll go "wow that was good" and another time you'll say "what was I thinking, of course that wasn't going to work"

Edit for Wrong Toon post, YesI'mWatching
Izziee
University of Izziee
#14 - 2011-12-20 17:54:05 UTC
Schmata Bastanold wrote:
Hi all,

Common rifter fit consists of guns, point, web, ab, plate, dc and gyro. That is what is recommended to newbies and oldies and any differences from this template are generally frown upon (at least that's my impression after reading discussions on fits submitted on battleclinic).

I like to experiment with my rifters, sometimes put MSE instead of web, sometimes I go with full gank like 3 x gyro and rigs for more gank / boosting my resists/shield regen. Reasoning for lack of web is: I am fast enough to catch'em as long as they are not able to warp out, for ganking fit: put max dmg on them and hope regen/resist will hold long enough to kill them.

Everybody knows rifters are plated and usually active repped so they load ammo and neut accordingly to exploit resists holes and make repping impossible.

Isn't it good to have a fit with a little "WTF?" factor? I find it really enjoyable to play with different fits and I am newbie enough to be surprised by some fits and I like to take my "weird" fits for a test drive and I wonder is it just a phase and sooner or later I will end up with the same fits as everobody else and only my skills can make a difference or experimenting on your own is a way to go?

Just to make it clear, I don't ask for your permission or approval (my money, my game - that's my motto). I just wanted to know what more experienced people think.

Second clarification: I am talking about rifters but I think question applies to any ship in Eve so don't grasp on name of ship.


Basically, I don't think there is much point at all. I'm not an experienced pilot, but I think along the same lines as you do, I'd love to try different stuff out and see what works, BUT...

Eve is an old game and you won't be finding out something that hasn't already been tried and tested. Eve isn't a game like WoW either where different tactics or arena set ups is going to shock someone, because think about it, unlike wow, how often do you change your gear out? Then compare that to Eve and how many times does your ship die? A player in wow or any other MMO might change a thing here or there but they primarily stick with the same character, in eve, how many ships does a pvper go through?

It's all been done before, and while there is NOTHING wrong with trying to play differently, the most optimal thing is usually the most common, for that reason.

Nothing stops you from changing and playing around, but there isn't any point to it other than to be different...which you already stated, you don't need permission for, so kinda pointless thread :p
Suleiman Shouaa
The Tuskers
The Tuskers Co.
#15 - 2011-12-20 18:22:44 UTC
The best way to come up with new (or "experimental") fits is by going out there and finding real needs.

For example, earlier today I found 2 Armegeddons, an Oracle and a Maelstrom bashing a Customs Office in lowsec. Now, I had to come up with a ship that would be able to deal with them (with links on my side). The result was fairly successful - they managed to run due to ECM but I would have been able to kill at least the Oracle and one of the Armageddons if that hadn't happened.
vorneus
Hub2
#16 - 2011-12-20 21:19:24 UTC
Suleiman Shouaa wrote:
The best way to come up with new (or "experimental") fits is by going out there and finding real needs.

For example, earlier today I found 2 Armegeddons, an Oracle and a Maelstrom bashing a Customs Office in lowsec. Now, I had to come up with a ship that would be able to deal with them (with links on my side). The result was fairly successful - they managed to run due to ECM but I would have been able to kill at least the Oracle and one of the Armageddons if that hadn't happened.


This is a really good point.

Innovating new ship fittings around a specific problem like this is not only a great way of coming up with experimental fits that work, it's also extremely satisfying when it comes off - particularly if you're fighting outnumbered.

-Ed

This one time, I like, totally did some stuff.
Rellik B00n
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#17 - 2011-12-20 21:55:56 UTC
consider the meta-game.

tough with rifters but you can use the cookie cutter to your advantage by fitting anti-cookie!


to give an example:

buffer cane, acs, neut, plate, resist, tackle.

this is(was?) a really common fit.


now if 2 of these run into each other (highly likely) what is the point of the neut/s? they accomplish very little.

throw the same ship in with 2 HAM/HM launchers fitted and it has a distinct advantage over the cookie.


this is all hypothetical since once you starting shooting the rest of his gang will log-in trap/jump in/uncloak.


that said, its fun to think "what is everyone else flying", then come up with a counter.
[Of a request for change ask: Who Benefits?](https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&find=unread&t=199765)
Cambarus
The Baros Syndicate
#18 - 2011-12-21 01:29:03 UTC
A quick glance at battleclinic shows that the OP is losing a fair number of rifters, so odds are he's doing something wrong, and that something is this:

OP, fly cookie cutter ships for a while. It's not a question of what works and what doesn't, it's an issue with you, and your lack of understanding how to properly PVP. The issue here isn't so much that cookie cutter fits are the best way to fly a ship (often they're not), but without a solid understanding of the various aspects of pvp, you'll never do well with oddly fit ships, even if the idea behind the fit is valid. Fly with some people who know how to pvp, learn from them, and THEN go off and try odd ship fits.
Schmata Bastanold
In Boobiez We Trust
#19 - 2011-12-21 07:23:55 UTC
Cambarus wrote:
A quick glance at battleclinic shows that the OP is losing a fair number of rifters, so odds are he's doing something wrong, and that something is this:

OP, fly cookie cutter ships for a while. It's not a question of what works and what doesn't, it's an issue with you, and your lack of understanding how to properly PVP. The issue here isn't so much that cookie cutter fits are the best way to fly a ship (often they're not), but without a solid understanding of the various aspects of pvp, you'll never do well with oddly fit ships, even if the idea behind the fit is valid. Fly with some people who know how to pvp, learn from them, and THEN go off and try odd ship fits.



Well, I am losing a lot of ships mostly because I did not follow mine/mission/be-afraid-of-lowsec newbie routine. For example I played hide and seek for a week or two with Tuskers in Hevrice and oops, here you have my win/lose ratio. If you check fits on lost ships you will see that most of them was pretty standard (at least I think they were).

But whatever, I have 4 kills and 30 loses so yes I am losing ships. And of course I make mistakes and of course I don't know every aspect of a pvp. This is my first toon and it is 3 months old, what would you expect? Yes I know: two days old toons are killing titans with their bare hands in null and make lemon juice by squeezing suns, blah blah blah...

My point is that fit everybody uses and everybody expects when seeing rifter at their d-scan or overview is a disadvantage for somebody like me who lack in skills and experience. That is why I dedicated "weird" fits as my ISK sink, just to see what is possible and what can work and in what situations. Like few days ago I made Vengeance pilot go "wtf?" when my rifter with two MSEs just would not die instantly. Of course I lost a ship in that fight but I had my share of fun and gained some experience.

From responses to this thread I can see that along the lines "common fit is good because it's common" there are people like me who just try things out for pure lolz or just out of curiosity so I think I have my answer.

Thanks to everybody who wrote their thoughts or at least read my post.

Cheers :)

Invalid signature format
Liang Nuren
No Salvation
Divine Damnation
#20 - 2011-12-21 08:50:17 UTC
Schmata Bastanold wrote:
Cambarus wrote:
A quick glance at battleclinic shows that the OP is losing a fair number of rifters, so odds are he's doing something wrong, and that something is this:

OP, fly cookie cutter ships for a while. It's not a question of what works and what doesn't, it's an issue with you, and your lack of understanding how to properly PVP. The issue here isn't so much that cookie cutter fits are the best way to fly a ship (often they're not), but without a solid understanding of the various aspects of pvp, you'll never do well with oddly fit ships, even if the idea behind the fit is valid. Fly with some people who know how to pvp, learn from them, and THEN go off and try odd ship fits.



Well, I am losing a lot of ships mostly because I did not follow mine/mission/be-afraid-of-lowsec newbie routine. For example I played hide and seek for a week or two with Tuskers in Hevrice and oops, here you have my win/lose ratio. If you check fits on lost ships you will see that most of them was pretty standard (at least I think they were).

But whatever, I have 4 kills and 30 loses so yes I am losing ships. And of course I make mistakes and of course I don't know every aspect of a pvp. This is my first toon and it is 3 months old, what would you expect? Yes I know: two days old toons are killing titans with their bare hands in null and make lemon juice by squeezing suns, blah blah blah...

My point is that fit everybody uses and everybody expects when seeing rifter at their d-scan or overview is a disadvantage for somebody like me who lack in skills and experience. That is why I dedicated "weird" fits as my ISK sink, just to see what is possible and what can work and in what situations. Like few days ago I made Vengeance pilot go "wtf?" when my rifter with two MSEs just would not die instantly. Of course I lost a ship in that fight but I had my share of fun and gained some experience.

From responses to this thread I can see that along the lines "common fit is good because it's common" there are people like me who just try things out for pure lolz or just out of curiosity so I think I have my answer.

Thanks to everybody who wrote their thoughts or at least read my post.

Cheers :)


Generally speaking, the only thing "unexpected" is when the experimental fit epic fails.. and the only "WTF" is on the killboard comments. I don't hate experimental fits - but you really need a solid PVP foundation in order to recognize when its appropriate to use one.

-Liang

I'm an idiot, don't mind me.
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