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Social Corps

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UberFly
Metallurgy Incorporated
#121 - 2015-01-30 19:24:03 UTC
Yourmoney Mywallet wrote:
I'm gonna go out on a limb here and suggest that you're not going to find even one shred of official CCP documentation anywhere that presents pvp in EVE as an option.

and you would be wrong - main page, under "Game Features" presents everything as an option "you can...or ... or ...". PVP combat in Eve is an option, if you never undock you'll never get shot. Is this common? for market warriors it is, there are a lot of characters that never undock, or never do again after reaching Jita/Amarr/Hek/Rens. Yet they still interact...
Destiny Corrupted
Deadly Viper Kitten Mitten Sewing Company
Senpai's Afterschool Anime and Gaming Club
#122 - 2015-01-30 19:24:07 UTC
Then CCP really screwed up, because having game mechanics present that when removed would account for a good three quarters of the game's player base disappearing into the ether is pretty bad game design.

I wrote some true EVE stories! And no, they're not of the generic "my 0.0 alliance had lots of 0.0 fleets and took a lot of 0.0 space" sort. Check them out here:

https://truestories.eveonline.com/users/2074-destiny-corrupted
UberFly
Metallurgy Incorporated
#123 - 2015-01-30 19:30:37 UTC  |  Edited by: UberFly
Jenn aSide wrote:
You seem the exact sort of person advertisers like. So, did you come into the game like many who thought you could actually "fly" space ships? Twisted

With complete honesty, I will say "yes". I came for the spaceships, and the cool space background, I knew I didn't like PVP. I'm crap at it, but I've gotten used to doing it. I have 3 accounts now, though I'm not sure why anymore. I still love the space, but one would do it. If I hadn't just bought a year on all 3 I'd probably just keep one and fly around null shooting ****.

Edit: and before anyone asks, I first tried Eve in 2006, because I really, really wanted to fly a megathron (yes, no one cares, but I've shared so there :) )
UberFly
Metallurgy Incorporated
#124 - 2015-01-30 19:32:27 UTC
Destiny Corrupted wrote:
Then CCP really screwed up, because having game mechanics present that when removed would account for a good three quarters of the game's player base disappearing into the ether is pretty bad game design.

Nobody is talking about removing mechanics though, where did that come from?
Destiny Corrupted
Deadly Viper Kitten Mitten Sewing Company
Senpai's Afterschool Anime and Gaming Club
#125 - 2015-01-30 19:56:44 UTC
UberFly wrote:
Destiny Corrupted wrote:
Then CCP really screwed up, because having game mechanics present that when removed would account for a good three quarters of the game's player base disappearing into the ether is pretty bad game design.

Nobody is talking about removing mechanics though, where did that come from?

Errr, I didn't quote you, so I ended up not wording that properly due to lack of reference, my bad.

UberFly wrote:
CCP can't force people out of high-sec, because people who are already unwilling to venture out will just leave if their play style gets nerf'd. CCP can't force people out of NPC corps for the same reason, those that are afraid of war-decs, or anything else that comes with PCs will simply give up.

Change "removed" to "nerfed."

I wrote some true EVE stories! And no, they're not of the generic "my 0.0 alliance had lots of 0.0 fleets and took a lot of 0.0 space" sort. Check them out here:

https://truestories.eveonline.com/users/2074-destiny-corrupted
Indahmawar Fazmarai
#126 - 2015-01-30 19:59:19 UTC
Leannor wrote:
Indahmawar Fazmarai wrote:
Tear Jar wrote:
The problem is there is no point in being in a real corp for the majority if highsec players. Make a one man corp. No wardecs and you can still use mail lists and player channels to organize groups. Joining a corp only hurts you if you don't want to pvp. And if you do want a real corp, just fill it with inactives and Alts. Then have the real players all drop corp when wardecced.

There needs to be a reason beyond "I have honor!" For players to be in a high sec corporation if they nd don't use corporate hangars(most don't in highsec).


The main reason for one-man corps is to avoid the silly NPC corp tax.

Corporations, as structures, are mostly useless features to hisec players. Which reflects the CCP attitude about hisec, PvE and carebears in general; hand them useless features, braindead mechanics and shipsploding-only content, and then blame them to leave a game that treats them so good and gives them so many chances to play it in CCP's way...



lol, you're talking out of your proverbial. Just cos maybe you don't see a need for them in your play style, be assured there are many many others who at the very least find it useful, if not essential.


The only reason to owe a POS it's industry, which is only a little part of hisec (and even more little since Somalia and warlords' Afghanistan became the world's most industrialized nations according to CCP).
Lucas Kell
Solitude Trading
S.N.O.T.
#127 - 2015-01-30 20:11:49 UTC
Destiny Corrupted wrote:
Then CCP really screwed up, because having game mechanics present that when removed would account for a good three quarters of the game's player base disappearing into the ether is pretty bad game design.
Most games have mechanics that if removed would lose most of the playerbase. Like for example if you removed guns from most FPS games, they'd probably lose appeal.

The Indecisive Noob - EVE fan blog.

Wholesale Trading - The new bulk trading mailing list.
Indahmawar Fazmarai
#128 - 2015-01-30 20:15:05 UTC
Yourmoney Mywallet wrote:
UberFly wrote:
Jenn aSide wrote:
So you're saying that you didn't know what EVE was (launched in 2003, EVE is a pvp sandbox set in space.....) .... other stuff not relevant to my point......

Ummm, that isn't what this says. The main page points out many things that you can do in Eve that aren't "PVP". Even the "info" tag for the main Eve page doesn't say "PVP" (what shows up when I put my mouse over the tab). A Google search of "EVE is a pvp sandbox" returned no hits with that exact phrase (this thread apparently hasn't been crawled yet).

Eve is as much a game of cooperative player interaction as it is player versus player interaction.


  • A cooperative 5-man mining fleet warping into a belt and targetting specifically that one precious veld roid the poor nublet in his Venture is also shooting - that's pvp.
  • A cooperative incursion fleet popping motherships all week long because "hey - why not?" and thereby pissing off every other incursion runner - that's pvp.
  • A cooperative mission runner fleet farming missions for a weekend and then dumping all their LP on the market for next to no profit - that's pvp.
  • A cooperative indy cabal producing item X and then dumping it for a loss in some regional market until dat utha dood says "Screw it, I'm back to Jita" - that's pvp.


EVE is a pvp game. Everything else is rubbish.


Yet for some reason, we can't interact to NPC to do out dirty job, we get no meaningful reward for assisting them, and there are zero ways in which a player can force another player to PvE or suffer the consequences of his poor decission making.

PvE don't have tools to generate emergent content and influence other players. They have no tools to PvP their way, and the reason is CCP. CCP are either too bigoted about PvP or downright incompetent as to develop PvE and put it to the same standard as PvP. Can you figure if duels were the only PvP option whereas not having a NPC law firm behind your back meant your ships could be embargoed without notice? Would you think that it would be a "balanced" "sandbox"?
Jenn aSide
Soul Machines
The Initiative.
#129 - 2015-01-30 20:30:52 UTC
Indahmawar Fazmarai wrote:


Yet for some reason, we can't interact to NPC to do out dirty job, we get no meaningful reward for assisting them, and there are zero ways in which a player can force another player to PvE or suffer the consequences of his poor decission making.


This is a lie. knowing where an incursion is happening and getting someone to chase you there (getting him scramed on a gate by npcs while you fly away) is forcing someone to "pve". He better learn how to pve fast if he don't wanna die.

Knowing the right ships to not kill in the 1st 4 rooms of a Maze so that pvp'rs who scan you down get killed in them while you do the 5th room and scoop the loot is the same thing

Using the key to avoid the 1st 2 rooms of Blood Raider Naval Shipyard (meaning that if they want to kill you they either have to bring a key or clear the 1st too rooms....in pvp fit ships) is also it.

And "no meaningful reward"? My positive standings (on an alt) to ALL of the npc pirate factions (unlocking LP stores that contain pirate implants begs to differ.

The 'conflict' isn't "PVPrs vs PVErs" Its GOOD players (pve/pvp whatever.) vas bad.

Quote:

PvE don't have tools to generate emergent content and influence other players. They have no tools to PvP their way, and the reason is CCP. CCP are either too bigoted about PvP or downright incompetent as to develop PvE and put it to the same standard as PvP.


Ah, so we're all just imagining how Faction warfare teeters back and forth as PVErs manipulate the LP store rewards. I guess we all imagined the gerrymandering people have done in controlling the pirate (especially mordus but also Angel) LP stores. Have you seen the price of machariels lately?

Quote:

Can you figure if duels were the only PvP option whereas not having a NPC law firm behind your back meant your ships could be embargoed without notice? Would you think that it would be a "balanced" "sandbox"?


Yep, a PVE sandbox. Those exist too. But that's not what EVE is (and hopefully never will be, and it wasn't when you chose to download it. Why did you choose to D/L a game that fundamentally doesn't do what you want it to? Or do you just like to be frustrated?

Related to the above, if this is what you want why worry about EVE when Elite does this kind of thing better already?
ISD Ezwal
ISD Community Communications Liaisons
ISD Alliance
#130 - 2015-01-30 21:22:20 UTC
I have removed a rule breaking post and the one quoting it.

The Rules:
3. Ranting is prohibited.

A rant is a post that is often filled with angry and counter productive comments. A free exchange of ideas is essential to building a strong sense of community and is helpful in development of the game and community. Rants are disruptive, and incite flaming and trolling. Please post your thoughts in a concise and clear manner while avoiding going off on rambling tangents.

ISD Ezwal Community Communication Liaisons (CCLs)
Lucas Kell
Solitude Trading
S.N.O.T.
#131 - 2015-01-30 21:45:26 UTC
Jenn aSide wrote:
This is a lie. knowing where an incursion is happening and getting someone to chase you there (getting him scramed on a gate by npcs while you fly away) is forcing someone to "pve". He better learn how to pve fast if he don't wanna die.
Or he can crash the gate. Whatever way you look at it, that argument is weak.

Jenn aSide wrote:
Knowing the right ships to not kill in the 1st 4 rooms of a Maze so that pvp'rs who scan you down get killed in them while you do the 5th room and scoop the loot is the same thing
Nope, that doesn't force them to PvE, just means they can't get at that target, just like if I enter a frigate only anom while you're in a cruiser.

Jenn aSide wrote:
Using the key to avoid the 1st 2 rooms of Blood Raider Naval Shipyard (meaning that if they want to kill you they either have to bring a key or clear the 1st too rooms....in pvp fit ships) is also it.
Again, this isn't forcing them to PvE, they can go get a key.

Jenn aSide wrote:
Yep, a PVE sandbox. Those exist too. But that's not what EVE is (and hopefully never will be, and it wasn't when you chose to download it. Why did you choose to D/L a game that fundamentally doesn't do what you want it to? Or do you just like to be frustrated?
EVE is a sandbox. Just a sandbox.

The Indecisive Noob - EVE fan blog.

Wholesale Trading - The new bulk trading mailing list.
Tear Jar
New Order Logistics
CODE.
#132 - 2015-01-30 22:22:38 UTC
Unezka Turigahl wrote:
Being able to share bookmarks and a hanger between all my 1 man corps would be pretty sweet.


If you are in highsec and not at war or criminal, you don't need bookmarks for anything. Bookmarks are for pvp. Hangar is also mostly used for pvp. If your ship isn't exploding you don't have much use for handing out ships to your corpmates.
UberFly
Metallurgy Incorporated
#133 - 2015-01-31 01:17:41 UTC
Destiny Corrupted wrote:
UberFly wrote:
CCP can't force people out of high-sec, because people who are already unwilling to venture out will just leave if their play style gets nerf'd. CCP can't force people out of NPC corps for the same reason, those that are afraid of war-decs, or anything else that comes with PCs will simply give up.

Change "removed" to "nerfed."

If you look at my whole post on this one, Destiny, you'll see that I'm agreeing with you, nerfing stuff isn't the answer, as much as some people think it is. It takes balance, and it is a hard job. I believe the proposed change, as laid out in the CSM post waaay back there, is a good one. It allows people to get into groups that may keep them in-game long enough that they learn how to make isk and don't mind losing it (this is personal experience talking). It provides no in-game advantages or disadvantages, just communication.
The proposed change would also be handy for me, because I fly many a ganked roam, and new tools to share fittings and BS with folks would be great.
Destiny Corrupted
Deadly Viper Kitten Mitten Sewing Company
Senpai's Afterschool Anime and Gaming Club
#134 - 2015-01-31 03:49:27 UTC
Lucas Kell wrote:
Destiny Corrupted wrote:
Then CCP really screwed up, because having game mechanics present that when removed would account for a good three quarters of the game's player base disappearing into the ether is pretty bad game design.
Most games have mechanics that if removed would lose most of the playerbase. Like for example if you removed guns from most FPS games, they'd probably lose appeal.

That's a rather absurd comparison. If you remove guns from an fps game, the game will literally become nonfunctional. Meanwhile, removing, say, NPC corporations from EVE Online would not affect the game's functionality at all.

I wrote some true EVE stories! And no, they're not of the generic "my 0.0 alliance had lots of 0.0 fleets and took a lot of 0.0 space" sort. Check them out here:

https://truestories.eveonline.com/users/2074-destiny-corrupted
Kaelynne Rose
WTB Somalians
#135 - 2015-01-31 04:18:30 UTC
UberFly wrote:
Destiny Corrupted wrote:
UberFly wrote:
CCP can't force people out of high-sec, because people who are already unwilling to venture out will just leave if their play style gets nerf'd. CCP can't force people out of NPC corps for the same reason, those that are afraid of war-decs, or anything else that comes with PCs will simply give up.

Change "removed" to "nerfed."

If you look at my whole post on this one, Destiny, you'll see that I'm agreeing with you, nerfing stuff isn't the answer, as much as some people think it is. It takes balance, and it is a hard job. I believe the proposed change, as laid out in the CSM post waaay back there, is a good one. It allows people to get into groups that may keep them in-game long enough that they learn how to make isk and don't mind losing it (this is personal experience talking). It provides no in-game advantages or disadvantages, just communication.
The proposed change would also be handy for me, because I fly many a ganked roam, and new tools to share fittings and BS with folks would be great.


U dont think most highsec corps without POSes, players will just leave them for Lite Corps with WARDEC IMMUNITY? ?
Destiny Corrupted
Deadly Viper Kitten Mitten Sewing Company
Senpai's Afterschool Anime and Gaming Club
#136 - 2015-01-31 04:28:38 UTC
Kaelynne Rose wrote:
U dont think most highsec corps without POSes, players will just leave them for Lite Corps with WARDEC IMMUNITY? ?

I know the question wasn't directed at me, but...

Right now there are 4 principal benefits to player corporations:

1. No CONCORD tax.
2. POSes.
3. Hangars/wallet/organizational tools.
4. Being able to declare wars (double-edged sword).

There's also the ability to join alliances and set standings, but that's not necessarily a direct benefit.

If they extend even one benefit from the first three to these "lite" corps, they will screw up the balance so much that this might indeed be the case. This is why this idea is very dangerous, ominous even.

I wrote some true EVE stories! And no, they're not of the generic "my 0.0 alliance had lots of 0.0 fleets and took a lot of 0.0 space" sort. Check them out here:

https://truestories.eveonline.com/users/2074-destiny-corrupted
UberFly
Metallurgy Incorporated
#137 - 2015-01-31 04:31:29 UTC
Kaelynne Rose wrote:
[U dont think most highsec corps without POSes, players will just leave them for Lite Corps with WARDEC IMMUNITY? ?

Honestly? No, I don't. If they are non-POS corps right now, then they are only that for the lower tax, which would be the same reason they would be non-POS regular corps, instead of "corps-lite", after the change. If they are tax-dodging & wardec dodging corps now, then they will remain so after the addition of "corps-lite".

Corps-lite will maintain the same NPC tax rate. If that was not the case, even I would be against the addition.
Serene Repose
#138 - 2015-01-31 09:23:37 UTC
Look at what a fight you start putting "social" in your subject line.

We must accommodate the idiocracy.
Dave stark
#139 - 2015-01-31 09:25:04 UTC
Orlacc wrote:
Apparently there are talks to create un-war deccable corps in hi sec.


so, npc corps, but with an invite feature.
Dave stark
#140 - 2015-01-31 09:26:44 UTC
Destiny Corrupted wrote:
Kaelynne Rose wrote:
U dont think most highsec corps without POSes, players will just leave them for Lite Corps with WARDEC IMMUNITY? ?

I know the question wasn't directed at me, but...

Right now there are 4 principal benefits to player corporations:

1. No CONCORD tax.
2. POSes.
3. Hangars/wallet/organizational tools.
4. Being able to declare wars (double-edged sword).

There's also the ability to join alliances and set standings, but that's not necessarily a direct benefit.

If they extend even one benefit from the first three to these "lite" corps, they will screw up the balance so much that this might indeed be the case. This is why this idea is very dangerous, ominous even.


and pretty much none of those things are a reason for players to join another player's high sec corp.

just make a 1 man alt corp you can fold if wardecced for all the organisational goodness.

high sec in eve, simply doesn't encourage social interaction. in fact, the very design of high sec encourages players to shun it.