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Battleship PVP Viability

Author
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#101 - 2015-01-30 01:08:27 UTC
Richard Stallmanu Stallmania wrote:

Have you seen this thread? It's like 50% Baltec1 arguing that because his Battleship is able to have similar stats to a Cruiser that they are fine and balanced.

Cool story, then why should I fly a battleship just to intentionally gimp every minor advantage it affords?


How about you look past the mods needed for the cap stability when flying with a harpy fleet?

[Megathron, Nano cruiser gang]

Magnetic Field Stabilizer II
Magnetic Field Stabilizer II
Magnetic Field Stabilizer II
Damage Control II
Nanofiber Internal Structure II
Nanofiber Internal Structure II
Tracking Enhancer II
Tracking Enhancer II

Prototype 100MN Microwarpdrive I
Large Shield Extender II
Adaptive Invulnerability Field II
Heavy Capacitor Booster II, Navy Cap Booster 400

Neutron Blaster Cannon II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge L
Neutron Blaster Cannon II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge L
Neutron Blaster Cannon II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge L
Neutron Blaster Cannon II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge L
Neutron Blaster Cannon II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge L
Neutron Blaster Cannon II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge L
Neutron Blaster Cannon II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge L

Large Hyperspatial Velocity Optimizer I
Large Anti-EM Screen Reinforcer II
Large Core Defense Field Extender I

With a set of mid grades and a ws-615 you get .45au faster than a cruiser. Its a shield rax on steroids. The same can be done for every other BS out there if you want them to warp like a cruiser.
Ines Tegator
Serious Business Inc. Ltd. LLC. etc.
#102 - 2015-01-30 01:53:49 UTC  |  Edited by: Ines Tegator
Foxicity wrote:
Ines, thank you for your in-depth analysis. The things you highlighted clearly show that a battleship can bring a totally different flavor to a fight than 'comparable' cruisers. You did forget to share the scan resolution/lock time. Personally I would consider at least one tracking computer, since extra range will help with your inability to dictate, and a little more tracking makes you that much more mean. But the heat sink is suitable.

Richard wrote:
Vexor Navy Issue out performs that Apoc.
Faster, same DPS to better ranges, same buffer, half the sig, half the cost, only thing it loses is 40 sensor strength. Which really doesnt matter all that much.


Why'd you have to ruin it.

Aren't they like, characteristically different or something? I WANT TO FEEL GOOD ABOUT BATTLESHIPS.


Sorry. Lock time is 10.9 secs vs a cruiser. 6.8 secs with a single sebo. Not great, but acceptable within the fit's intended role. Tracking is good enough to function while fleet mates are providing the tackle. It would obviously not be able to apply it's dps and die a fiery death if solo.

Lets look at the VNI. Turns out Mr Party Pooper is pretty damn close to being right. There are some important limitations though.

Quote:
[Vexor Navy Issue, Vexor Navy Issue fit]

Damage Control II
1600mm Reinforced Rolled Tungsten Plates I
Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane II
Reactive Armor Hardener
Drone Damage Amplifier II
Drone Damage Amplifier II

Experimental 10MN Microwarpdrive I
Omnidirectional Tracking Link II, Tracking Speed Script
Omnidirectional Tracking Link II, Tracking Speed Script
Warp Disruptor II

[Empty High slot]
[Empty High slot]
[Empty High slot]
[Empty High slot]

Medium Trimark Armor Pump I
Medium Trimark Armor Pump I
Medium Trimark Armor Pump I

Garde II x5


I honestly couldn't figure out what to put in those high slots. CPU is too limited for medium guns. I don't fly VNI's, I was simply trying to match the numbers to my Apoc example as Richard said was possible. So take with a grain of salt.

621 DPS at 30km+18
5.51s Align
1482 m/s
Sensor Strength 24
3.6s lock time vs a cruiser
54.9k EHP
.0738 Tracking
101m Isk

Compared to the Apoc, EHP is moderately lower (at almost 1k effective reps/sec with the overheated Ancillary burst tanking, surviving for 30 secs means another 30k EHP. Buffer Apoc without the repper was another 15k EHP, for 65k total). Align is notably faster, lock time is Lots faster. Range is half and resistance to ewar is fully 1/4. It doesn't have the range flexibility - it's drone bay only has room for a single set of sentries. It also can't move during battle without leaving it's sentries behind - viable, but risky. For the same reason, it can't replace sentries that are destoryed unless it goes without light drones, making itself vulnerable to frigates and cruisers. Lastly, it can't "up fit." Remember that this is in comparison to a BS that was specifically fit to be compatible with cruiser gangs. BS are capable of much more DPS or Tank in fits that are specced to those purposes.

With those limitations, flying one or the other is obviously not going to be the same. But the raw stats are, in fact, pretty comparable. BS still has more sustain, and more flexibility. It's also much more expensive. Based on those tradeoffs, I'd say there's a meaningful choice in picking one or the other, without one being clearly dominant. This is a good place to be.
Remember also that this is compared to *specialized* small gang BS fit, and BS as ship class have additional roles they can fill beyond small roams.

Overall, I think BS are really in a good place. The balance problem, if there is one, is with sentry drones. I think putting a BS size weapon system (heavy drones) on cruisers is the mistake, and they should probably be gently nerfed. Probably by taking the drone tracking bonuses off the Hulls, which would leave cruisers with their raw stats but leave BS with their distinct advantage in application and flexibility.
Ronny Hugo
KarmaFleet
Goonswarm Federation
#103 - 2015-01-30 04:01:05 UTC
How big EHP would battlesips need at their current price range before they would be worth their slow pace?
elitatwo
Zansha Expansion
#104 - 2015-01-30 08:25:03 UTC
Ronny Hugo wrote:
How big EHP would battlesips need at their current price range before they would be worth their slow pace?

Nonononono, you are going this the wrong way.

Your question should be, how should the pricetag ona battleship look like to be worth while gimp- errm using and the answer is:

Tier 1: 89.000.000m
Tier 2: 108.000.000m
Tier 3: 140.000.000m isk

and the base ehp be brought up to tier 3. There we go. Then a few tweaks that fit the lore not the band(aid) of developers..

Battleships fixed.

Eve Minions is recruiting.

This is the law of ship progression!

Aura sound-clips: Aura forever

Richard Stallmanu Stallmania
Voidlings
V0IDLINGS
#105 - 2015-01-30 09:39:09 UTC
baltec1 wrote:
Richard Stallmanu Stallmania wrote:

Have you seen this thread? It's like 50% Baltec1 arguing that because his Battleship is able to have similar stats to a Cruiser that they are fine and balanced.

Cool story, then why should I fly a battleship just to intentionally gimp every minor advantage it affords?


How about you look past the mods needed for the cap stability when flying with a harpy fleet?

[Megathron, Nano cruiser gang]

Magnetic Field Stabilizer II
Magnetic Field Stabilizer II
Magnetic Field Stabilizer II
Damage Control II
Nanofiber Internal Structure II
Nanofiber Internal Structure II
Tracking Enhancer II
Tracking Enhancer II

Prototype 100MN Microwarpdrive I
Large Shield Extender II
Adaptive Invulnerability Field II
Heavy Capacitor Booster II, Navy Cap Booster 400

Neutron Blaster Cannon II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge L
Neutron Blaster Cannon II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge L
Neutron Blaster Cannon II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge L
Neutron Blaster Cannon II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge L
Neutron Blaster Cannon II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge L
Neutron Blaster Cannon II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge L
Neutron Blaster Cannon II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge L

Large Hyperspatial Velocity Optimizer I
Large Anti-EM Screen Reinforcer II
Large Core Defense Field Extender I

With a set of mid grades and a ws-615 you get .45au faster than a cruiser. Its a shield rax on steroids. The same can be done for every other BS out there if you want them to warp like a cruiser.

I think at this point I give up on trying to explain simple game mechanics to you. You have no idea what on earth you are talking about.
So let's try once more. If you need to gimp the tank of BS down to that of a cruiser yet still get out performed by a HAC at half the SP/ISK cost and you need billions of isk worth of implants, you have proven yourself wrong and everyone else right. Thank you for proving to Eve that BS are not viable.
Richard Stallmanu Stallmania
Voidlings
V0IDLINGS
#106 - 2015-01-30 09:44:33 UTC  |  Edited by: Richard Stallmanu Stallmania
Ronny Hugo wrote:
How big EHP would battlesips need at their current price range before they would be worth their slow pace?

200k EHP should be easily achievable IMO.

Now before people freak out about the insane tank numbers, anti-BS dreads will be a counter.
HiddenPorpoise
Jarlhettur's Drop
United Federation of Conifers
#107 - 2015-01-30 09:51:34 UTC
Richard Stallmanu Stallmania wrote:

I think at this point I give up on trying to explain simple game mechanics to you. You have no idea what on earth you are talking about.
So let's try once more. If you need to gimp the tank of BS down to that of a cruiser yet still get out performed by a HAC at half the SP/ISK cost and you need billions of isk worth of implants, you have proven yourself wrong and everyone else right. Thank you for proving to Eve that BS are not viable.
Actually pull that fit up. Don't even put implants on, just look. Not even saying it's good.



I still just say extra large buffer choices and slight base hp increase.
Anthar Thebess
#108 - 2015-01-30 10:32:09 UTC  |  Edited by: Anthar Thebess
Battleships need love.
Every one know this.

From the start battleship Vs hac/ T3

What is working:
- battleship is slow , cruizer sized ships are fast
- mass of a battleship, and his size blocks big relocation of fleets - while fast moving cruisers can travel easily by gates and wormholes

What is not working :
- battleships should out match T3 Cruisers and hacs on battlefield
- battleship survivability should be grater than T3 Cruisers and hacs


What is partially working
- battleship alpha doctrines , you can still get more alpha strike if shooting big target.

How this can be fixed.
It cannot be without big nerf or big buff to one of the ship classes.

For example one of the most annoying ships in eve :

ISTHAR

Possible fix that i see :
- reduce Heavy drone bandwidth to 20mb/s
- reduce Ishtar and Vexor navy drone bandwidth to 100mb

So they still can deploy 5 hvy drones, but only 4 sentry drone - so 5 sentry drones will be only viable on the battleship class.

Tech 3 cruisers.
Probably the hardest to re-balance - you can easily store ammo , depot and extra subsystem and mods in cargo bay.
So you can travel few regions in a nullified ship, and refit it to combat 1j from destination.
But this is not only the issue, next is resistance profile, so you can get on Tech 3 cruiser EHP bigger from most of the battleships, while still having very small signature. What is more important - this high resistances allow for much bigger survivability as your logistics needs to fix much less shied or armor.

People use this ships not only for PVP , so lets try something very nasty.


Due to wormhole nature , tech 3 cruisers outside wormhole space are penalized and receive -40% less remote aid.

So remote armor repairs, remote shield transporters, energy one give you 40% less.
This don't impact local repair systems.

Why this?
Because those ships are used all around eve not only on big fleet engagements.
But also, for hunting, exploration, ratting, taxi, hauling etc.

The issue is in abusing them for fleet pvp, so lets only hit this aspect , and at the same time mess with other broken mechanic.
Logistic ships.
Serendipity Lost
Repo Industries
#109 - 2015-01-30 12:30:36 UTC
You guys just need to let go of the hole bandwith shinanigans w/ the ishtar. The problem is that it drops sentries AND runs. That whole 'only 4 sentries' just reduces the problem by 20% It doesn't fix the problem.

It's the whole treat the symptoms or cure the disease thing. Their high dps is a symptom. Other HACs have high dps, but they are not OP. Ishtar has high dps and kites away. Other (not OP HACs) have high dps (deimos for example) but are not OP. It's the drop and run combo that is OP.

Taking sentries away from cruiser hulls gets rid of the drop and run issue. They would still be able to drop heavy drones, but would need to hang around and web/scram their prey to apply the big damage.

I think this would help BS pvp viability. Making sentries BS only and making them un assignable would create a unique operation mode for BS. If an FC wants instant sentry damage - he needs to bring a BS fleet. It preserves the sentry drone and creates a niche for the BS to get them out there on the field.

Keep in mind what makes the sentry so attractive. It has zero travel time to get in range of it's target. That does a couple of things. You can't just turn on some smart bombs and get rid of the - you have to boat over to them and then smartbomb them, which isn't a small thing to do. You don't get 10 seconds (this varies down in a short range brawl and can get silly when heavies chase a fast target) or more from engagement time until your drones get into damage dealing range of their target. These features make assigning sentries attractive to FC and somewhat problematic on the game balance end.

I think making them BS only would be sweet. It would instantly fix the whole cruiser sentry imbalance. It would bring the ishtar in line w/ other HACs by forcing it to actually tackle opponents if it wants to properly apply heavy drone dps. (The vexor and navey vexor would take a good lumping, but they would still be T1 cruisers doing BS damage if a pilot were willing to actually engage via scram/web - kiting vexors would no longer be as attractive).

Taking sentries away from capital ships would also get rid of some balance issues (ok, server crushing archons issues), but I'm not sure CCP could justify 'no sentries' on carriers just based on what carriers are, but taking the assign function away from the drone itself would do wonders also. Then there is the whole large null block influence on CCP decisions that has worked to make/keep some aspects of the game quite silly and unintersting.

So - Sentries as BS only weapons would be great for BS (and other stuff). Sentries as BS and above with no ability to assign them out ot others would be a lesser option, but would still have a lot of good impact on the game.

afkalt
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#110 - 2015-01-30 13:58:53 UTC
baltec1 wrote:
[Megathron, Nano cruiser gang]

Magnetic Field Stabilizer II
Magnetic Field Stabilizer II
Magnetic Field Stabilizer II
Damage Control II
Nanofiber Internal Structure II
Nanofiber Internal Structure II
Tracking Enhancer II
Tracking Enhancer II

Prototype 100MN Microwarpdrive I
Large Shield Extender II
Adaptive Invulnerability Field II
Heavy Capacitor Booster II, Navy Cap Booster 400

Neutron Blaster Cannon II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge L
Neutron Blaster Cannon II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge L
Neutron Blaster Cannon II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge L
Neutron Blaster Cannon II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge L
Neutron Blaster Cannon II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge L
Neutron Blaster Cannon II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge L
Neutron Blaster Cannon II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge L

Large Hyperspatial Velocity Optimizer I
Large Anti-EM Screen Reinforcer II
Large Core Defense Field Extender I

With a set of mid grades and a ws-615 you get .45au faster than a cruiser. Its a shield rax on steroids. The same can be done for every other BS out there if you want them to warp like a cruiser.



Talos does it better, btw.
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#111 - 2015-01-30 14:04:51 UTC
Richard Stallmanu Stallmania wrote:
I think at this point I give up on trying to explain simple game mechanics to you. You have no idea what on earth you are talking about.
So let's try once more. If you need to gimp the tank of BS down to that of a cruiser yet still get out performed by a HAC at half the SP/ISK cost and you need billions of isk worth of implants, you have proven yourself wrong and everyone else right. Thank you for proving to Eve that BS are not viable.


Do please tell us how the above is no good.

If you dont want to fit implants and a warp speed rig then dont, you dont have to go 3au to be effective. We have ships such as the pest that can fit like the old cane only bigger everything. We have the RHML phoon and raven, The geddon and its powerful neuts, The scorpion and its ECM, The duel rep hyperion the can and does wipe out entire gangs. We then have the likes of the geddon with can solo small fleets of cruisers and the panther which a lot of people love. Moving up we have the rattle which can be fitted to destroy just about anything and the likes of the vindi and mach.

The vast bulk of complaints are around T3 and the ishtar, all of which are horribly overpowered. Battleships are fine, its these ships that are broken.

baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#112 - 2015-01-30 14:20:43 UTC
afkalt wrote:



Talos does it better, btw.


It doesn't have the CPU. It also has less than half the buffer and has less tracking (mega can fit up to two more TE than the talos) .

afkalt
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#113 - 2015-01-30 14:24:17 UTC
The ones I run with have 34k EHP, plenty. Tracking of 0.07 with void is plenty because we roll it in fleets with hard tackle.

It also has the massive advantage of looking more engagable, which appears to be 85% of eve roaming pvp these days.
Jenn aSide
Worthless Carebears
The Initiative.
#114 - 2015-01-30 14:33:04 UTC
Richard Stallmanu Stallmania wrote:

I think at this point I give up on trying to explain simple game mechanics to you.


If the choice is listening to a fairly famous EVE pilot (Baltec) who has proven (by actually playing the game) that he knows what he's doing or some F&I theory crafters of....lets call it "less notoriety" (lol)....well, all i can say is "Hail Baltec" Twisted
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#115 - 2015-01-30 14:40:15 UTC
afkalt wrote:
The ones I run with have 34k EHP, plenty. Tracking of 0.07 with void is plenty because we roll it in fleets with hard tackle.

It also has the massive advantage of looking more engagable, which appears to be 85% of eve roaming pvp these days.


You underestimate the drive most have to tackle that battleship. Grab yourself a solo rhml raven, people will tackle themselves for youTwisted
Antillie Sa'Kan
Imperial Shipment
Amarr Empire
#116 - 2015-01-30 15:24:01 UTC  |  Edited by: Antillie Sa'Kan
Jenn aSide wrote:
If the choice is listening to a fairly famous EVE pilot (Baltec) who has proven (by actually playing the game) that he knows what he's doing or some F&I theory crafters of....lets call it "less notoriety" (lol)....well, all i can say is "Hail Baltec" Twisted


I am not personally qualified to debate the finer points of PVP with BS hulls but what Baltec is saying does make sense on several levels. I am going to have to go with Jenn aSide on this one.
Serendipity Lost
Repo Industries
#117 - 2015-01-30 16:40:20 UTC
Antillie Sa'Kan wrote:
Jenn aSide wrote:
If the choice is listening to a fairly famous EVE pilot (Baltec) who has proven (by actually playing the game) that he knows what he's doing or some F&I theory crafters of....lets call it "less notoriety" (lol)....well, all i can say is "Hail Baltec" Twisted


I am not personally qualified to debate the finer points of PVP with BS hulls but what Baltec is saying does make sense on several levels. I am going to have to go with Jenn aSide on this one.



I dunno, when the FC says harpy fleet and the guy shows up in a mega.... Do we really want to encourage that sort of behavior from everyone? I think the guy should be used as an example and handled accordingly. We have to stick the the doctrine or chaos will run rampant.

Baltec1 reminds me of the cat in that video I saw. The one where the little toy boy dog gets some extra extra strange. I don't think this kind of behavior should be encouraged. (I didn't actually see the video - one of the F&I experts described it to me)
Frostys Virpio
State War Academy
Caldari State
#118 - 2015-01-30 16:50:20 UTC
Serendipity Lost wrote:
Antillie Sa'Kan wrote:
Jenn aSide wrote:
If the choice is listening to a fairly famous EVE pilot (Baltec) who has proven (by actually playing the game) that he knows what he's doing or some F&I theory crafters of....lets call it "less notoriety" (lol)....well, all i can say is "Hail Baltec" Twisted


I am not personally qualified to debate the finer points of PVP with BS hulls but what Baltec is saying does make sense on several levels. I am going to have to go with Jenn aSide on this one.



I dunno, when the FC says harpy fleet and the guy shows up in a mega.... Do we really want to encourage that sort of behavior from everyone? I think the guy should be used as an example and handled accordingly. We have to stick the the doctrine or chaos will run rampant.


If the ship follows the guideline of the fleet and it's approved by the FC, there is no chaos. If other fleet emmber ask question, the FC can always call special snowflake rule and if someone says he want to be one, tell him the implant/fits requirement and see if he's willing to stand within the guideline. The funnyest situation will be if everyone want and can do it and you end up with a fleet of megathron.
Aiyshimin
Mea Culpa.
Shadow Cartel
#119 - 2015-01-30 17:32:09 UTC
Frostys Virpio wrote:
Serendipity Lost wrote:
Antillie Sa'Kan wrote:
Jenn aSide wrote:
If the choice is listening to a fairly famous EVE pilot (Baltec) who has proven (by actually playing the game) that he knows what he's doing or some F&I theory crafters of....lets call it "less notoriety" (lol)....well, all i can say is "Hail Baltec" Twisted


I am not personally qualified to debate the finer points of PVP with BS hulls but what Baltec is saying does make sense on several levels. I am going to have to go with Jenn aSide on this one.



I dunno, when the FC says harpy fleet and the guy shows up in a mega.... Do we really want to encourage that sort of behavior from everyone? I think the guy should be used as an example and handled accordingly. We have to stick the the doctrine or chaos will run rampant.


If the ship follows the guideline of the fleet and it's approved by the FC, there is no chaos. If other fleet emmber ask question, the FC can always call special snowflake rule and if someone says he want to be one, tell him the implant/fits requirement and see if he's willing to stand within the guideline. The funnyest situation will be if everyone want and can do it and you end up with a fleet of megathron.


If a ship doesn't contribute anything to the fleet, it is accepted on some other reasons. Like in baltec's case.

I think it's cool that he always flies a Mega, and it's certainly fun for him and his group. However it doesn't have much to do with the discussion about viability of battleships in PVP.



baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#120 - 2015-01-30 17:42:36 UTC
Serendipity Lost wrote:
Antillie Sa'Kan wrote:
Jenn aSide wrote:
If the choice is listening to a fairly famous EVE pilot (Baltec) who has proven (by actually playing the game) that he knows what he's doing or some F&I theory crafters of....lets call it "less notoriety" (lol)....well, all i can say is "Hail Baltec" Twisted


I am not personally qualified to debate the finer points of PVP with BS hulls but what Baltec is saying does make sense on several levels. I am going to have to go with Jenn aSide on this one.



I dunno, when the FC says harpy fleet and the guy shows up in a mega.... Do we really want to encourage that sort of behavior from everyone? I think the guy should be used as an example and handled accordingly. We have to stick the the doctrine or chaos will run rampant.


We dont, It is something that has evolved over the last five years. It started out with just going on roaming gangs but when an attempt was made to headshot VFK after the NC fell an all hands on **** call was made. In the fighting we were running short on drakes so I was forced to adapt my Megathron for drake fleet. I honed the fit and when we went on the offensive it just came along for the ride. Fast forwards a few years to the fountain wars and my most well known mega (diplomatic incident) carved out a reputation for being unkillable with it often being the last man standing and managing to get back home. After that everyone just expects to see me in one and a good few see it as a luck charm. It also makes a difference in moral when a fleet that has suffered heavy losses finds out the Mega has survived. There has been a few times when the mega did die that the fleet I was with all donated isk to get a new one including the time when they paid for a navy mega.