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Player Features and Ideas Discussion

 
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Rationalising the skill training & implants sytem

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Malcanis
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
#281 - 2015-01-25 18:41:51 UTC
Rivr Luzade wrote:
Malcanis wrote:
Who's going to pay real money for temporary accelerators when permanent in game implants do the same job?

Did you miss the part where I specified that only the highest agent would act?

And how does your objection

"Simply depending how you distribute the materials you either have a new tech cartel or everyone has start producing their own boosters"

Not equally apply to learning implants right now?

Do you remember the ship skins? Roll Or RMT, or people who buy anything from the NES to begin with? Roll


What about them?

Boosters already exist as in game, player-produced, market sold items. I absolutely do not intend any part of this proposal to be items sold through the NEX.

"Just remember later that I warned against any change to jump ranges or fatigue. You earned whats coming."

Grath Telkin, 11.10.2016
Rivr Luzade
Coreli Corporation
Pandemic Legion
#282 - 2015-01-25 19:12:01 UTC
Malcanis wrote:
Rivr Luzade wrote:
Malcanis wrote:
Who's going to pay real money for temporary accelerators when permanent in game implants do the same job?

Did you miss the part where I specified that only the highest agent would act?

And how does your objection

"Simply depending how you distribute the materials you either have a new tech cartel or everyone has start producing their own boosters"

Not equally apply to learning implants right now?

Do you remember the ship skins? Roll Or RMT, or people who buy anything from the NES to begin with? Roll


What about them?

Boosters already exist as in game, player-produced, market sold items. I absolutely do not intend any part of this proposal to be items sold through the NEX.

I was more focusing on the part "Who's going to pay real money for temporary...", people do that already, would most certainly also do it for this and CCP is out to grab more money from us anyways.

UI Improvement Collective

My ridicule, heavy criticism and general pale outlook about your or CCP's ideas is nothing but an encouragement to prove me wrong. Give it a try.
Kaldi Tsukaya
Deveron Shipyards and Technology
Citizen's Star Republic
#283 - 2015-01-25 19:46:19 UTC
I can agree with doing away with attribute enhancer implants. Everyone gets the same base SP/hr.

I disagree with doing away with remaps and attributes, as this allows choice of specialization that rewards a player who reads and researches the game. Knowledge is, and should be, an advantage. Plus you get 2 free remaps, so you can f*up and still be ok. Reduce the following remaps to 6 months, to allow for more manageable training plans.

Every new toon should be given a 30-day, non-revocable training booster. Make it part of the NPE, and give the newbro a good start.

Disagree strongly with any training-speed boosters beyond 30 days. No PTW please.

Last point. It is not always risk vs/ reward. There is also time vs/ reward. People who plan long-term seem to sacrifice short-term, but ultimately wind up better off in the long run. As it should be.
Malcanis
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
#284 - 2015-01-25 21:22:29 UTC
Rivr Luzade wrote:
Malcanis wrote:
Rivr Luzade wrote:
Malcanis wrote:
Who's going to pay real money for temporary accelerators when permanent in game implants do the same job?

Did you miss the part where I specified that only the highest agent would act?

And how does your objection

"Simply depending how you distribute the materials you either have a new tech cartel or everyone has start producing their own boosters"

Not equally apply to learning implants right now?

Do you remember the ship skins? Roll Or RMT, or people who buy anything from the NES to begin with? Roll


What about them?

Boosters already exist as in game, player-produced, market sold items. I absolutely do not intend any part of this proposal to be items sold through the NEX.

I was more focusing on the part "Who's going to pay real money for temporary...", people do that already, would most certainly also do it for this and CCP is out to grab more money from us anyways.


OK then well as long as that point has been clarified.

"Just remember later that I warned against any change to jump ranges or fatigue. You earned whats coming."

Grath Telkin, 11.10.2016
Tabyll Altol
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#285 - 2015-01-26 09:40:59 UTC
Malcanis wrote:
Character attributes are meaningless and stupid, and only serve to punish players who haven't trained up the basics already (primarily new players, but also older players who have previously focused on specific areas of gameplay). The cost of implants deters high risk PvP amongst those for whom training skills is still very important (again, primarily new players). The stat respec system rewards poor skill training habits and punishes good ones. The cost of implants incentivises and gives excuses for risk averse behaviour.

So:

1)Get rid of stats, or at least dissociate them from skill training and find some other use for them like giving people false hope that there will ever be any WiS gameplay or something, I dont even care.

2) Normalise skill training at 2500 SP/hr

3) Remove all learning boosts from pirate implants, CA-series, etc.

4) Change the current stat boosting implants into +100-+500 SP/hr and put them in slot slot 7, 8 or 9, with wide availability for all three of those slots, with only the highest value implant or booster taking effect.

5) Introduce boosters that give +100-500 SP/hr with, again, availability for all 3 booster slots, and again with only the highest value implant or booster taking effect. (so if you have a +4 learning implant but you take a +500 SP/hr booster, you get 3000 SP/hr for 72 hours, then drop back to 2900 SP/hr after 72 hours when the booster wears off. The Cerebral Enhancer booster will need to be rebalanced accordingly, but I'll leave the details of that for discussion..

Learning Boosters last 72 hours or until you get podded, and then you need to take another one or you drop down to 2500 SP/hr until you do. You can overlap them by just taking another one, with the new dose restarting the 72h clock. (If you don't want to log in every 3 days just to shoot up, then just buy implants.)

Transitioning: Characters who currently have learning implants in clones get them turned into whatever the highest stat value is (so if you have 3 +3s, a +4 and a +5, then they get merged into a +500SP/hr implant already in your head). If slot 7 is empty, it gets put into slot 7. Otherwise slot 8. Otherwise slot 9. If the clone has no empty implant slots, then it gets a free learning booster of equivalent strength applied immediately and the implant appears in the clone's hangar.

This system is simple, easy to understand, flexible, it covers all existing use cases (including being able to maintain skill training while unable to access the client for more than 72 hours, which supports the recent skillqueue change)); it facilitates players engaging in high pod-loss risk scenarios without paying excessive prices to continue training, while maintaining the principle of there being some cost for losing a pod.



The reason for having learning implants available across slots 7-9 is so that they don't have to interfere with pirate sets or mindlinks and to allow players to have a range of navigation, gunnery or missile implants and put the learning implant into the otherwise unused slot. If you want to use all 10 of your implant slots for hardwirings, then you still have the option of using boosters.


+1
Mornak
Exotic Dancers Union
Hatakani Trade Winds Combine
#286 - 2015-01-26 12:56:38 UTC  |  Edited by: Mornak
why not just give every new player a jump-clone? make it part of the New Player Experience. JC's are quite essential for EVE.

whatever npc-corp you are assigned to in the beginning fo your career will allow you to install a jump-clone (ONE, just one. that's a maximum of 2 clones). You want more JC's, start standing-grinding.
Malcanis
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
#287 - 2015-01-26 13:18:25 UTC
Mornak wrote:
why not just give every new player a jump-clone? make it part of the New Player Experience. JC's are quite essential for EVE.

whatever npc-corp you are assigned to in the beginning fo your career will allow you to install a jump-clone (ONE, just one. that's a maximum of 2 JC's). You want more JC's, start standing-grinding.


Good idea

"Just remember later that I warned against any change to jump ranges or fatigue. You earned whats coming."

Grath Telkin, 11.10.2016
Corraidhin Farsaidh
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#288 - 2015-01-26 13:34:19 UTC
Mornak wrote:
why not just give every new player a jump-clone? make it part of the New Player Experience. JC's are quite essential for EVE.

whatever npc-corp you are assigned to in the beginning fo your career will allow you to install a jump-clone (ONE, just one. that's a maximum of 2 JC's). You want more JC's, start standing-grinding.


I'm against changing the current system other than player built implants instead of them just dropping but I do like this idea.
Ronny Hugo
KarmaFleet
Goonswarm Federation
#289 - 2015-01-30 03:15:35 UTC  |  Edited by: Ronny Hugo
Corraidhin Farsaidh wrote:
A different implentation to the usual posts but I'd still say no. If implants make a player risk averse then they bought the wrong ones. The cost of the implants provide the risk balanced by the reward of higher SP/hr.


if implant cost makes players risk averse then they are POOR. The cost of the implants are measured in hours of tedious grinding before they have been exposed to the real excitement and sense of mastery that the game can bring, and so they just quit.
Also, what gameplay value does it add when you shoot at someone with +5 implants? Surely the value should be put into the ships, because shooting at a 500M isk ship is more exciting than shooting at a 300M isk ship, whereas the implants are unknown and add ZERO gameplay value until you happen to pod someone and see some isk number on the KM after the fact.

I think implants should no longer give training attribute bonuses, because implants should give other bonuses as their primary function. Then two options remain: (1) Adding remaps to like 6 times a year so that people can train efficiently without training one set of attributes for 6 months and then another set for another 6 months. (2) Putting attributes at a flat 28 or 30 or whatever and then removing the remapping and hiding the attribute values since they no longer are changed by implants. No point showing different attribute uses in skills so just hide that info as well.

PS: I have Fighter Bombers V... I have no idea why I have that since I will never have a supercarrier on this character. I just think this info ought to stop some of the comments that would have been written in response to my comment, considering my corp and alliance tag.
Corraidhin Farsaidh
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#290 - 2015-01-30 12:26:24 UTC
Ronny Hugo wrote:
Corraidhin Farsaidh wrote:
A different implentation to the usual posts but I'd still say no. If implants make a player risk averse then they bought the wrong ones. The cost of the implants provide the risk balanced by the reward of higher SP/hr.


if implant cost makes players risk averse then they are POOR....


I'll slightly amend my point here. Implants *do not* make players risk averse, they either are or aren't. Implants have nothing to do with that, if they were removed entirely the risk averse player would move on to complain about ganking, cost of ships, lack of CONCORD in losec etc etc etc.

Risk aversion is a player psychology not a game mechanic.
Ines Tegator
Serious Business Inc. Ltd. LLC. etc.
#291 - 2015-02-05 17:25:12 UTC
There comes a point when "discouraging risk averse" translates into "removing consequence from the game." The OP is starting to reach that point.

I don't know exactly where that point lies, since it's probably an opinion from person to person. I will say that in 4+ years EVE is currently the most newb friendly it's ever been. The barrier to PVP is not cost, but simply knowledge of game mechanics and UI. EVE is a hard game to learn. The OP's intent would be better filled by making the game more accessible on a plain usability level, NOT by removing choice and consequence from gameplay.

Overhaul Dscan!