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I joined EVE for Incarna - a random bucket of ideas

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Ivy Sunkiller
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#21 - 2011-12-20 00:47:41 UTC  |  Edited by: Ivy Sunkiller
Ladie Harlot wrote:
This silly person is trying to say that because Farmville has a lot of players that CCP should make Eve more like Farmville.


Straw man.

Edit: and not just that, but also ad hominem at once. Bad troll, better luck next time :).
Crumplecorn
Eve Cluster Explorations
#22 - 2011-12-20 01:54:43 UTC
Ivy Sunkiller wrote:
This doesn't have anything to do with being a sandbox or a themepark, I'm playing a multiplayer game, I want to encounter other people while I fly around and mind my own business. Even if they are just assholes that want to shoot me down.
Sure it does. EVE doesn't try to bring people together. It just offers things to do, most of which happen to require working together to some degree, and/or blowing some other guys up. Missions are, typically, not one of those things.

Ivy Sunkiller wrote:
And any actual source on "WiS isn't going to happen"?
Yeah, this is CCP we're talking about. They spent, what, 2 years putting all their time into it, and we got 1 room per race. So if you want entire stations modelled, with actual player interaction, and something worth doing in them, I suggest looking into cryostasis, maybe they can unfreeze you when the real Incarna is finished.

Ivy Sunkiller wrote:
Precisely that. Now give me one reason why EVE shouldn't do something new and get more popular? :)
Because it isn't new, it's selling point is what it already has. Case-in-point: they've had to abandon Incarna (for now) because it turned out to be a liability.

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Ivy Sunkiller
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#23 - 2011-12-20 03:21:04 UTC  |  Edited by: Ivy Sunkiller
Crumplecorn wrote:
Sure it does. EVE doesn't try to bring people together. It just offers things to do, most of which happen to require working together to some degree, and/or blowing some other guys up. Missions are, typically, not one of those things.


You could say the same about most themepark oriented MMOs, really, it has nothing to do about EVE being a sandbox.

Crumplecorn wrote:
Yeah, this is CCP we're talking about. They spent, what, 2 years putting all their time into it, and we got 1 room per race. So if you want entire stations modelled, with actual player interaction, and something worth doing in them, I suggest looking into cryostasis, maybe they can unfreeze you when the real Incarna is finished.


2 years for developing a platform, few months to go from one CQ to four at limited staff. Granted I don't expect it any time soon, but that doesn't mean it's not coming. Also cryostasis is so last century, look up Aubrey de Grey's TED talk on longevity and death escape velocity :).

Crumplecorn wrote:
Because it isn't new, it's selling point is what it already has. Case-in-point: they've had to abandon Incarna (for now) because it turned out to be a liability.


Moot point, even as a rather simplistic model that was discussed by CCP, with minigames and doing contraband, and most importantly - player interaction - stations would be much more than CQ are now. I do agree though that it is good that they have postponded it.
Ciar Meara
PIE Inc.
Khimi Harar
#24 - 2011-12-20 08:44:14 UTC  |  Edited by: Ciar Meara
Ivy Sunkiller wrote:
They already gauge you for the privilege to actually play the game. I would actually pay for fashion, given that it actually looked good, didn't cost $50 a piece (yanno micro in microtransactions) and I had where to show off. Now carry out your pitchforks.

edit: yes, I did overuse "actually", need more coffee.



They do not gauge us allready, they ask the standard fee you pay for an MMO, for this you should get acces to the entire game. Items (even fashion items) should be created by players with resources sold by players who created them with PI/industry or earned doing missions/FW/incursion/etc. So they can flow freely into any paying customers hold.

Even lord of the rings online, perhaps the best known example of a failed MMO that goes free to play does not skimp on having complete access to the the game if you pay a subscription, they even give a fairly large amout of their "Aurum" to subbed players.

Merely giving out Aurum on every sub isn't possible in eve though, it would destroy parts of the market and create inflation.

I loved what the plans where in Ambulation, I hated was severely disappointed/disillusioned by Incarna

- [img]http://go-dl1.eve-files.com/media/corp/janus/ceosig.jpg[/img] [yellow]English only please. Zymurgist[/yellow]
Ivy Sunkiller
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#25 - 2011-12-20 09:23:28 UTC  |  Edited by: Ivy Sunkiller
Ciar Meara wrote:
They do not gauge us allready, they ask the standard fee you pay for an MMO, for this you should get acces to the entire game. Items (even fashion items) should be created by players with resources sold by players who created them with PI/industry or earned doing missions/FW/incursion/etc. So they can flow freely into any paying customers hold.

Even lord of the rings online, perhaps the best known example of a failed MMO that goes free to play does not skimp on having complete access to the the game if you pay a subscription, they even give a fairly large amout of their "Aurum" to subbed players.

Merely giving out Aurum on every sub isn't possible in eve though, it would destroy parts of the market and create inflation.

Why compare to a free to play MMO, when there are pay to play MMOs that have microtransactions on top of the subscription? I know where you are coming from, and I'm not saying that player driven economy around clothing wouldn't add to the game - it most likely would, but business is business, and there is no universal rule what a subscription fee should or shouldn't buy you. Flat subscription fee business model is dated and flawed, developers know that, hence PLEX, hence microtransactions, hence Diablo 3 being a testing ground for real money auction house before Titan. Even Bioware charges you for extra outfits for companions in Mass Effect. Stephenson touches it nicely - from a bit different angle - in Reamde, if that sort of literature swings your way (you would be surprised how similar his fictional MMO - T'Rain - is to EVE).

There is still plenty of room for player driven economy within the context of WiS, and potentially more exciting than crafting a skirt that has no application to actual gameplay for 3 months only to sell it for 10 battleships. The sky hasn't fallen.

Ciar Meara wrote:
I loved what the plans where in Ambulation, I hated was severely disappointed/disillusioned by Incarna

Everybody is disappointed, even people who like CQ are disappointed.
Crumplecorn
Eve Cluster Explorations
#26 - 2011-12-20 09:40:00 UTC
Ivy Sunkiller wrote:
business is business, and there is no universal rule what a subscription fee should or shouldn't buy you. Flat subscription fee business model is dated and flawed, developers know that, hence PLEX, hence microtransactions
Hilmar alt detected.

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Ladie Harlot
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#27 - 2011-12-20 10:08:17 UTC  |  Edited by: Ladie Harlot
Ivy Sunkiller wrote:
Ladie Harlot wrote:
This silly person is trying to say that because Farmville has a lot of players that CCP should make Eve more like Farmville.


Straw man.

Edit: and not just that, but also ad hominem at once. Bad troll, better luck next time :).

Except I wasn't trolling. The point you were making was that "social" games like Farmville are growing faster than MMORPGs so games like Eve need to look at what they are doing. You mentioned minigames in a previous post...sounds a lot like Farmville in space.

The artist formerly known as Ladie Scarlet.
Ivy Sunkiller
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#28 - 2011-12-20 10:42:17 UTC
Ladie Harlot wrote:
Except I wasn't trolling. The point you were making was that "social" games like Farmville are growing faster than MMORPGs so games like Eve need to look at what they are doing.

I do think that MMOs in general need to step back and look at what they are doing with their player bases and how they tailor (or rather fail to do so) the mechanics for people to spontaneously meet and group, and I give social games as an example because they do something totally different in that regard and because they are making money. That does not mean that I want whole EVE to be like Farmville, nor do I mention Social Games purely because of their popularity or financial success. Hence straw man.

Ladie Harlot wrote:
You mentioned minigames in a previous post...sounds a lot like Farmville in space.

Here is what I said:

Ivy Sunkiller wrote:
Moot point, even as a rather simplistic model that was discussed by CCP, with minigames and doing contraband, and most importantly - player interaction - stations would be much more than CQ are now.

Yes, I mentioned minigames, but I don't advocate them, want them even, nor was it a part of my argument for what you mention above. I was merely stating the fact that CCP was planning to implement them to make a point in reply to another post.

If you want to nitpick, do so within context.
Ladie Harlot
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#29 - 2011-12-20 10:45:24 UTC
Ivy Sunkiller wrote:
straw man

You keep using this phrase. It doesn't mean what you think it means.

The artist formerly known as Ladie Scarlet.
Ivy Sunkiller
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#30 - 2011-12-20 11:05:27 UTC
Ladie Harlot wrote:
You keep using this phrase. It doesn't mean what you think it means.

Good thing I linked the definition then, so that everybody can see how wrong I am :).
Disdaine
#31 - 2011-12-20 11:17:40 UTC
Ivy Sunkiller wrote:
Ladie Harlot wrote:
You keep using this phrase. It doesn't mean what you think it means.

Good thing I linked the definition then, so that everybody can see how wrong I am :).


Keep fighting the good fight.
Drew Solaert
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#32 - 2011-12-20 11:20:29 UTC
We have Spacebook and PI for all our social game needs.

Serious note though, I love FiS, it's what brought me back to Eve time and time again. But WiS could be something special and a meaningful addition to the world, but only if it was done right, Player owned spaces in stations would be cool but at the same time every station would be full of penises.

Instead I would love to see corp owned not individual spaces, something like one space for 10 members, then an additional one 20, then 40, then 80 then 160 members. Limiting the number of areas (200k bars/penis lands would be entirely pointless draw on resources) Not sure what they could do with that space, but the whole bar/war meetings/downtime between missions or general interaction with people who wonder in for a look around.

I lied :o
Ravan Hekki
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#33 - 2011-12-20 11:46:56 UTC
WiS hsa the potential to do somthing amazing, somthing genre redefining. I think thats the point of it. I could be wrong, but CCP wants to create somthing different to your avarage MMORPG.
It's interesting that people saw WiS as the WOD beta and didn't think that thee development of WoD may have been a way of developing a bigger eve and recouping the costs through another game.

The vision of a world which had ships, ground warfare, people runnig bars or god forbid player run agents (thankyou TRIAD) in stations attracted me to EVE. The idea that when i dock at a statione there may be a firefight happening in some slum, i can negotiate prices with a real person or the guy fixing my ship i can argue him down on price, but i dint ralise he fitted second hand parts and my guns overheat faster or he stuck a tracking device on my industrial so pirates could follow it. A New eden where 0.0 can have an economey based around services offered in a station and encourages trade, ilegal back room deals etc...
Do you see what i see when i see WiS?

That is the vision of New Eden that CCP has for new eden and thats what i want from this game. Yes NeX was a poorly implemented idea, however you may need to get througfh the birthing pains to get to what would be the greatest game ever created, we have the tech to do it, just maybe not the will.
Taiwanistan
#34 - 2011-12-20 11:49:26 UTC
"I do think that MMOs in general need to step back and look at what they are doing with their player bases and how they tailor (or rather fail to do so) the mechanics for people to spontaneously meet and group, and I give social games as an example because they do something totally different in that regard and because they are making money. That does not mean that I want whole EVE to be like Farmville, nor do I mention Social Games purely because of their popularity or financial success. Hence straw man."

social games have shallow gameplay
there are more chatrooms than you can ever use
there is nothing stopping you from spontaneously meeting and grouping, just form a fleet, if you don't want to make 20 jumps to meet with your friends whose fault is that?
blame your corp, blame yourself

TA on wis: "when we have a feature that is its own functional ecosystem of gameplay then hooks into the greater ecosystem of EVE as a whole, and it provides good replayability."
Jenshae Chiroptera
#35 - 2011-12-20 11:51:36 UTC  |  Edited by: Jenshae Chiroptera
Ivy Sunkiller wrote:
Quick three points about WiS:

  1. It can't be prioritized over the FiS game that makes EVE what it is.
  2. It can't be just a gimmick/social hub but actually needs to serve a purpose.
  3. It needs to be completely optional for those players who never want to leave their capsules and couldn't care less about captain quarters, not to mention stations.

...


4. Running one avatar and one room was melting graphics cards. It needs to be fundamentally different to not melt the whole computer down when it has multiple characters.

5. You realise that we would probably just walk around like androids, look at each other and probably still talk in Local? I doubt there will be much interaction.

(We will just be little virtual run way models showing off the Nex items that will all be the same, lacking the user created diversity of Second Life.)

CCP - Building ant hills and magnifying glasses for fat kids

Not even once

EVE is becoming shallow and puerile; it will satisfy neither the veteran nor the "WoW" type crowd in the transition.
Arcathra
Technodyne Ltd.
#36 - 2011-12-20 11:54:10 UTC
Quote:
I think station promenades can fill a very important role here, that's letting players meet each other and maybe, just maybe, do something together (no, not that) since they are docked in the same station anyway. But the stations themselves need to have some game mechanics to make people want to walk around them (optional, obviously). Stations could be the one place in EVE where you actually can feel safe about walking in another player's path.

I would like that.

EVE is a big and sometimes lonely place. To have a place where you can meet with other players and do something completely unralted to fly serious spaceships is just missing. The social aspect of seeing a human(like) avatar of someone else and interacting with it should not be underestimated. For a lot of people in a game like EVE it is much easier to get into contact with other people through a simulation like this than talking to some chat with some portraits. Furthermore it adds to the immersion and simply to the overall picture of the game. And we should not forget the roleplaying community that most likely would appreciate it, too.
WiS can add a very interesting layer of gameplay to the game, even if it is only social gameplay.

I know that a lot of people don't share that opinion but no one wants to force them to use it that way. But I think WiS can be a very crucial expansion to EVE, when done right.
Ivy Sunkiller
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#37 - 2011-12-20 12:04:45 UTC
Taiwanistan wrote:
there is nothing stopping you from spontaneously meeting and grouping, just form a fleet

Forming a fleet with corp members is not spontaneously meeting new people. Spilling a drink over a girl in a pub, then going to your place to dry her clothes is spontaneously meeting new people.

Jenshae Chiroptera wrote:
5. You realise that we would probably just walk around like androids, look at each other and probably still talk in Local? I doubt there will be much interaction.

(We will just be little virtual run way models showing off the Nex items that will all be the same, lacking the user created diversity of Second Life.)

That's why it needs game mechanics, point nr 2.
Taiwanistan
#38 - 2011-12-20 14:18:23 UTC
what like a bunch of avatars /emoting in a bar?
explain to me this spontaneity, hell even in cod you have to wait 3 minutes while matches load up, what game are you talking about
god damn how i would love to spontaneously appear at optimal on untanked mackinaws with no scanning, no warp-in alts no set up at all

TA on wis: "when we have a feature that is its own functional ecosystem of gameplay then hooks into the greater ecosystem of EVE as a whole, and it provides good replayability."
Ladie Harlot
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#39 - 2011-12-20 14:22:13 UTC
Ivy Sunkiller wrote:
Ladie Harlot wrote:
You keep using this phrase. It doesn't mean what you think it means.

Good thing I linked the definition then, so that everybody can see how wrong I am :).

Yeah you saved me from having to do it. Now please tell us more about how Eve should be like Facebook.

The artist formerly known as Ladie Scarlet.
Lexmana
#40 - 2011-12-20 14:29:40 UTC
LEAVE EVE ALONE!!!!

You obviously made a mistake if you joined because of incarna before it was even released. But now you know that incarna failed so maybe you should now ... unjoin?

And you should really listen more to Lady Harlot. She speaks the truth and there was no straw man.