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Missile assistance modules

Author
Nakovi Kitsune
No Pressure.
#1 - 2015-01-27 23:24:20 UTC
Guns have tracking computers and tracking modules to help them out. Have the devs ever given thought to modules that would help with missile velocity and explosion radius? As it stands, you are limited to rigs for this.

Or did they decide that missiles are already too easy and we should live with it, which would be totally reasonable.
Tsukino Stareine
Garoun Investment Bank
Gallente Federation
#2 - 2015-01-27 23:28:58 UTC
nice idea but then the base stats would have to be nerfed significantly.
Antillie Sa'Kan
Imperial Shipment
Amarr Empire
#3 - 2015-01-27 23:42:14 UTC
The only thing missiles really need is a general buff to flight speed and a cosponsoring nerf to flight time.
Patri Andari
Thukker Tribe Antiquities Importer
#4 - 2015-01-28 00:43:56 UTC  |  Edited by: Patri Andari
Seems they thought about having tracking disrupters affect them first and then people pointed out the concern you raised. Soon after they left the issue for lower hanging fruit.

I expect they will revisit missiles (esp heavy missiles) and missile application mods in the next ten years

Be careful what you think, for your thoughts become your words. Be careful what you say, for your words become your actions. Be careful what you do, for your actions become your character. And character is everything. - author unknown

RavenPaine
RaVeN Alliance
#5 - 2015-01-28 00:59:34 UTC
There is an implant that helps negate the targets speed, as it affects explosion radius.
Target Painters also help to bloom the target.

Missiles are very good at hitting 'like sized' targets.
And selectable damage is a plus.

I do think that Heavies are a bit under-whelming at this time. No matter what size your target is, they do less DPS than most other weapon systems.
Nalia White
Tencus
#6 - 2015-01-28 14:34:45 UTC
they do indeed have boosting modules (to be fair they work for other weapon platforms too).

Target painters and webs.

Syndicate - K5-JRD

Home to few, graveyard for many

My biggest achievement

Zarnak Wulf
Amarrian Vengeance
#7 - 2015-01-28 14:55:30 UTC  |  Edited by: Zarnak Wulf
Target painters.
Rigor rigs.
Flare rigs.
Fuel cache rigs.
Hydraulic bay thruster rigs.
Missile implants.
Crash Boosters.
Tsukino Stareine
Garoun Investment Bank
Gallente Federation
#8 - 2015-01-28 19:39:03 UTC
Zarnak Wulf wrote:
Target painters.
Rigor rigs.
Flare rigs.
Fuel cache rigs.
Hydraulic bay thruster rigs.
Missile implants.
Crash Boosters.


while this is all true, turrets benefit from all those as well AND direct module upgrades.
Ion Kirst
KIRSTONE ALLIANCE
#9 - 2015-01-28 21:23:35 UTC
Tsukino Stareine wrote:
Zarnak Wulf wrote:
Target painters.
Rigor rigs.
Flare rigs.
Fuel cache rigs.
Hydraulic bay thruster rigs.
Missile implants.
Crash Boosters.


while this is all true, turrets benefit from all those as well AND direct module upgrades.



All the items in that list help missiles, the only one in that list that helps turrets is the target painter.

I know you know, I think you misspoke.


-Kirst

Always remember Tovil-Toba, and what was done there.

Caleidascope
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#10 - 2015-01-28 22:24:15 UTC
Nakovi Kitsune wrote:
Guns have tracking computers and tracking modules to help them out. Have the devs ever given thought to modules that would help with missile velocity and explosion radius? As it stands, you are limited to rigs for this.

Or did they decide that missiles are already too easy and we should live with it, which would be totally reasonable.

Rigs and implants. Did you forget the implants?

Life is short and dinner time is chancy

Eat dessert first!

Nakovi Kitsune
No Pressure.
#11 - 2015-01-28 22:55:28 UTC
Forgot to mention implants. My point is that every gun system has implants and rigs as well, in addition to specific modules.

Long story short, I'm disappointed with the tengu and nighthawk's ability to apply damage to fast cruisers outside web range. Heavy missiles suffer badly from explosion velocity.

And yes, I'm aware that the answer i'll generally get here is "well just use another ship." I can, and have, but wondered about the lack of missile modules in the process.
Bullet Therapist
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#12 - 2015-01-29 01:42:46 UTC
Nakovi Kitsune wrote:
Forgot to mention implants. My point is that every gun system has implants and rigs as well, in addition to specific modules.

Long story short, I'm disappointed with the tengu and nighthawk's ability to apply damage to fast cruisers outside web range. Heavy missiles suffer badly from explosion velocity.

And yes, I'm aware that the answer i'll generally get here is "well just use another ship." I can, and have, but wondered about the lack of missile modules in the process.


I wouldn't worry too much, it's probably on the (distant) horizon. I made a thread on the F&I forum about a year ago that got a dev response that essentially said it's something they're looking at. Even with the faster dev cycle, things are slow to happen and we've just got to be patient.
Chainsaw Plankton
FaDoyToy
#13 - 2015-01-29 05:42:21 UTC
heavy missiles got "hyperdunked" and then everything else got boosted. tbh I don't really ever remember heavies being all that good, it was just something people could fly and not need to think so it got used quite a bit.

@ChainsawPlankto on twitter

Soldarius
Dreddit
Test Alliance Please Ignore
#14 - 2015-01-29 16:00:44 UTC
Tsukino Stareine wrote:
nice idea but then the base stats would have to be nerfed significantly.


Completely untrue. You cannot get more than the paper dps out of missiles. Ever. The damage formula hard-limits it to 100% of potential damage. If, on the other hand, you were to say missiles would have to be rebalanced again, that I would agree with.

The closest CCP has ever come to OP's idea was to try turning Tracking Disruptors into Weapon Disruptors by adding missile application penalties to the items on sisi. For some reason the effects did not apply. It flat out didn't work. I'd be very curious to know what about the attempt failed. I honestly don't know why. But if I had to guess, I would imagine it has to do with the way the turret modifiers are applied versus how the missile modifiers are applied. Missiles are physical objects in space with their own stats. But they get those stats from base stats * skill modifiers * hull modifiers just like turrets. So... idk.

http://youtu.be/YVkUvmDQ3HY

Agent Unknown
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#15 - 2015-01-29 16:04:27 UTC
Soldarius wrote:
Tsukino Stareine wrote:
nice idea but then the base stats would have to be nerfed significantly.


Completely untrue. You cannot get more than the paper dps out of missiles. Ever. The damage formula hard-limits it to 100% of potential damage. If, on the other hand, you were to say missiles would have to be rebalanced again, that I would agree with.

The closest CCP has ever come to OP's idea was to try turning Tracking Disruptors into Weapon Disruptors by adding missile application penalties to the items on sisi. For some reason the effects did not apply. It flat out didn't work. I'd be very curious to know what about the attempt failed. I honestly don't know why. But if I had to guess, I would imagine it has to do with the way the turret modifiers are applied versus how the missile modifiers are applied. Missiles are physical objects in space with their own stats. But they get those stats from base stats * skill modifiers * hull modifiers just like turrets. So... idk.


This is likely because of a bug that currently affects Marauders (the Golem, specifically) with Bastion. Bastion improves missile stats, but if it stops/starts while missiles are on grid they disappear. I'd imagine this would be rampantly abused if Weapon Disruptors were around.
Kitty Bear
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#16 - 2015-01-29 16:43:49 UTC
Ion Kirst wrote:
Tsukino Stareine wrote:
Zarnak Wulf wrote:
Target painters.
Rigor rigs.
Flare rigs.
Fuel cache rigs.
Hydraulic bay thruster rigs.
Missile implants.
Crash Boosters.


while this is all true, turrets benefit from all those as well AND direct module upgrades.



All the items in that list help missiles, the only one in that list that helps turrets is the target painter.

I know you know, I think you misspoke.


-Kirst


All items in that list have a direct counterpart in the TURRETRIG section
All the missile affecting implants have a direct counterpart in the TURRETIMPLANT section

The Target Painter is an e-war module


part of the problem is that whilst weapon base properties can be loosely correlated
turrets and missiles are similar in the same way cheese and granite are
those differences have been gone over ad nauseum until most people are tired of rereading them


al I want for my missile boat is a module that affects either explosion velocity or explosion radius
1 of each would be sweet
a module that modifies the attributes of MY ship, not the target ship

why does everyone and his dog make this sound like too big of an ask
Zarnak Wulf
Amarrian Vengeance
#17 - 2015-01-29 17:50:24 UTC
Target painters quite simply trump the need for any kind of missile tracking computers. Unheated they boost damage application by 38%. They help everyone in the fleet. They only cost 16 CPU to fit. A tracking computer with tracking script only boosts by 30% and costs 35 CPU to fit.

Missile formula:

Speed a target must exceed to begin to mitigate missile damage = (explosion velocity * target signature radius) / explosion radius.

A Caracal with perfect skills and armed with Heavies - 122 m/s explosion velocity and 105m explosion radius. Shooting at a normal sized cruiser (125m) using a MWD (*6)

750 * 122 / 105 = 871m/s. A joke.

Add two overheated TP and you essentially double the targets signature. 750 * 1.45 * 1.3825= 1503.

Punch that into the formula and the target cruiser now needs to exceed 1746 m/s.
Add two rigor and one flare rig - 2763 m/s.
Add standard crash booster - 3442 m/s.

Target painters are the best thing since sliced bread for missile boats.
Kitty Bear
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#18 - 2015-01-29 19:16:52 UTC
Zarnak Wulf wrote:
Target painters quite simply trump the need for any kind of missile tracking computers. Unheated they boost damage application by 38%. They help everyone in the fleet. They only cost 16 CPU to fit. A tracking computer with tracking script only boosts by 30% and costs 35 CPU to fit.

Missile formula:

Speed a target must exceed to begin to mitigate missile damage = (explosion velocity * target signature radius) / explosion radius.

A Caracal with perfect skills and armed with Heavies - 122 m/s explosion velocity and 105m explosion radius. Shooting at a normal sized cruiser (125m) using a MWD (*6)

750 * 122 / 105 = 871m/s. A joke.

Add two overheated TP and you essentially double the targets signature. 750 * 1.45 * 1.3825= 1503.

Punch that into the formula and the target cruiser now needs to exceed 1746 m/s.
Add two rigor and one flare rig - 2763 m/s.
Add standard crash booster - 3442 m/s.

Target painters are the best thing since sliced bread for missile boats.


So because TP's CCP can safely remove targeting computers and tracking enhancers.
I'm glad you suggested this brilliant idea.

Zarnak Wulf
Amarrian Vengeance
#19 - 2015-01-29 19:41:17 UTC
Missile formula and turret tracking formula are not the same thing.
Bronson Hughes
The Knights of the Blessed Mother of Acceleration
#20 - 2015-01-29 20:05:18 UTC
Kitty Bear wrote:
So because TP's CCP can safely remove targeting computers and tracking enhancers.
I'm glad you suggested this brilliant idea.

Tracking Computers and Tracking Enhancers also have the benefit of increasing the range of the ship's turrets, something that target painters cannot do. There is some overlap in utility, but neither one makes the other obsolete.

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