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[Tiamat] Corp Friendly Fire Option

First post
Author
Tarpedo
Incursionista
#21 - 2015-01-28 19:03:28 UTC
Unexpected and interesting. Couple more changes like that (some type of wardec shield in so called "high security" space) and I can actually start recruiting people instead of being forever alone.
Bobmon
Macabre Votum
Northern Coalition.
#22 - 2015-01-28 19:08:07 UTC
Vincent Athena wrote:
Bobmon wrote:
More protection will mean that concord has to hire new Officers. This will hurt them financially. In my eyes it would be very understandable that a corporation pays more ISK to concord in order to get more protection for their corp members.



An yet wars, conflict that does not require a concord response and hence reduces their personnel requirements, cost money.

The way I see it is CONCORD's systems are automatic, and respond to conflict the same way, always. But if the conflict involves a war, extra checks cut in the stop the automatic response. Thus it takes more effort to not respond, and hence costs more money.

So any corp with FF disabled should pay a fee to CONCORD, just as if they did a war dec.

But wait! A mutual war is free. Turning on FF is sort of like having a mutual war with yourself, so it should be free.


#BobmonTurnsRolePlayerModeON

You pay for a war to go active so In a way you do pay for it. Also concord knows that people are in war with each other so they don't have to interfere, they are there to protect people, not war soldiers. Concord responds to the notification of fighting but if they know that these groups are fighting then this notification can simply be filtered out.

FF is a way to get more protection for your corp so you will have to pay to get that. Think about it, If I go to dinner (corp) and I eat my whole plate (protection) and I still want more food (protection, FF), then I have to order more, therefor paying more.

@BobmonEVE - BOBMON FOR CSM 12

Callic Veratar
#23 - 2015-01-28 19:09:09 UTC
Awoxing is great and all, but the far more entertaining stories will come from the corps where they have FF disabled and ships get concorded for webbing alts or engaging with drones instead of assisting.
Callic Veratar
#24 - 2015-01-28 19:15:22 UTC
Bobmon wrote:
Vincent Athena wrote:
Bobmon wrote:
More protection will mean that concord has to hire new Officers. This will hurt them financially. In my eyes it would be very understandable that a corporation pays more ISK to concord in order to get more protection for their corp members.



An yet wars, conflict that does not require a concord response and hence reduces their personnel requirements, cost money.

The way I see it is CONCORD's systems are automatic, and respond to conflict the same way, always. But if the conflict involves a war, extra checks cut in the stop the automatic response. Thus it takes more effort to not respond, and hence costs more money.

So any corp with FF disabled should pay a fee to CONCORD, just as if they did a war dec.

But wait! A mutual war is free. Turning on FF is sort of like having a mutual war with yourself, so it should be free.


#BobmonTurnsRolePlayerModeON

You pay for a war to go active so In a way you do pay for it. Also concord knows that people are in war with each other so they don't have to interfere, they are there to protect people, not war soldiers. Concord responds to the notification of fighting but if they know that these groups are fighting then this notification can simply be filtered out.

FF is a way to get more protection for your corp so you will have to pay to get that. Think about it, If I go to dinner (corp) and I eat my whole plate (protection) and I still want more food (protection, FF), then I have to order more, therefor paying more.



Protection is not a commodity, it's a service. If I want concord to protect me, I stay in high sec. Wardecs, FF, and NPC corps are ancillary because they're still protecting you with the same level of protection. You just have the option of saying when you don't want protection (by leaving high sec, being in a war, or being in a FF corp).
Gilbaron
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#25 - 2015-01-28 19:46:12 UTC
Omnathious Deninard wrote:
Gilbaron wrote:
sooo, can we please get a 10% NPC ratting tax for every corp that has coward mode enabled ?

Do you realize how much isk null sec renters will lose because of a coward tax?



why would a nullsec corp enable this ? the change does absolutely nothing for nullsec people. they can keep shooting corpmates without having to fear anything but the wrath that other players can bring upon them.
Greygal
Redemption Road
Affirmative.
#26 - 2015-01-28 19:59:03 UTC
The thought occurs to me that now all the highsec wardec corporations will be able to search corporations by FF on and off, and instantly spot all the carebear corps Bear

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Marlona Sky
State War Academy
Caldari State
#27 - 2015-01-28 20:05:14 UTC
Adding a tax to have this turned on will just encourage players to stay in the NPC to have the same effect. It has been proven time and time again that the players who enjoy and stay with the game are those who branched out into player corporations. This player interaction leads them towards other parts of the game that does not involve leveling up their Raven. Thus equating to new blood in parts of the game everyone is wanting.

Do you not see this?
Dersen Lowery
The Scope
#28 - 2015-01-28 20:07:06 UTC
Gilbaron wrote:
Omnathious Deninard wrote:
Gilbaron wrote:
sooo, can we please get a 10% NPC ratting tax for every corp that has coward mode enabled ?

Do you realize how much isk null sec renters will lose because of a coward tax?



why would a nullsec corp enable this ? the change does absolutely nothing for nullsec people. they can keep shooting corpmates without having to fear anything but the wrath that other players can bring upon them.


Per Greygal's observation, it might be a funny way to troll some wardec corp that doesn't do their homework...

Proud founder and member of the Belligerent Desirables.

I voted in CSM X!

Elenahina
No.Mercy
Triumvirate.
#29 - 2015-01-28 20:20:12 UTC
CCP Lebowski wrote:
Existing corps will find that FF is enabled by default on patch day (Nothing will change in other words). New corps will have it set to disabled unless they specify otherwise (There's a check box in the Create Corporation window).

I may have missed this as I was reading, but will NPC corps allow green on green fire following this change?

Eve is like an addiction; you can't quit it until it quits you. Also, iderno

Ralph King-Griffin
New Eden Tech Support
#30 - 2015-01-28 20:22:48 UTC  |  Edited by: Ralph King-Griffin
Gilbaron wrote:
coward mode

brilliant, this is what im calling it from now on.

incidentally,
if with coward mode Enabled i go suspect,
will my corpmates still be able to shoot my drones without creating a limited engagement ?

Edit: in highsec obviously
SeneschaI
Ordo Arcana
#31 - 2015-01-28 20:37:03 UTC
Callic Veratar wrote:
Awoxing is great and all, but the far more entertaining stories will come from the corps where they have FF disabled and ships get concorded for webbing alts or engaging with drones instead of assisting.

Did the 'duel pop up' fade from memory? Did the safety button just get forgotten in the rush to troll?

I wonder who would benefit from having FF enabled?
Black Pedro
Mine.
#32 - 2015-01-28 21:50:45 UTC
Marlona Sky wrote:
Adding a tax to have this turned on will just encourage players to stay in the NPC to have the same effect. It has been proven time and time again that the players who enjoy and stay with the game are those who branched out into player corporations. This player interaction leads them towards other parts of the game that does not involve leveling up their Raven. Thus equating to new blood in parts of the game everyone is wanting.

Do you not see this?

Except this is not what is going to happen. There is no guarantee that new players will end up in good corps that want to support and train them. They are just as likely, or more likely to end up in a terrible corp run by other newbies, or a straight out exploitive scam corp run by a nefarious CEO with a massive tax rate. In either case they are are going to have a bad initial experience to the game and may quit the all the same.

But the die is cast, and this thread is about feedback so all I would suggest is that if you have a option to filter ads based on whether FF is enabled, you should have a option to filter based on whether it is disabled too.
CCP Masterplan
C C P
C C P Alliance
#33 - 2015-01-28 21:55:33 UTC
Elenahina wrote:
CCP Lebowski wrote:
Existing corps will find that FF is enabled by default on patch day (Nothing will change in other words). New corps will have it set to disabled unless they specify otherwise (There's a check box in the Create Corporation window).

I may have missed this as I was reading, but will NPC corps allow green on green fire following this change?

NPC corps will be unchanged - attacking corpmates here will still be a crime.

"This one time, on patch day..."

@ccp_masterplan  |  Team Five-0: Rewriting the law

Vincent Athena
Photosynth
#34 - 2015-01-28 22:27:42 UTC
Black Pedro wrote:
Marlona Sky wrote:
Adding a tax to have this turned on will just encourage players to stay in the NPC to have the same effect. It has been proven time and time again that the players who enjoy and stay with the game are those who branched out into player corporations. This player interaction leads them towards other parts of the game that does not involve leveling up their Raven. Thus equating to new blood in parts of the game everyone is wanting.

Do you not see this?

Except this is not what is going to happen. There is no guarantee that new players will end up in good corps that want to support and train them. ........

But if they stay in an NPC corp, it's absolutely guaranteed that they will not get into a good corp.

For limited PvP training, there are still duels. Duels can also be used for web slinging freighters.

CCP, (or anyone else), with FF off, is there any easy way to have a corp free for all?

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Omnathious Deninard
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#35 - 2015-01-28 22:34:39 UTC
If isk for CONCORD paperwork is something that is desired then I think I could agree to corps having to pay the equivalent of a war dec fee to enable/disable FF.

If you don't follow the rules, neither will I.

Sabriz Adoudel
Move along there is nothing here
#36 - 2015-01-28 22:36:31 UTC  |  Edited by: Sabriz Adoudel
This is an outright poor decision. Tiamat will be the first release in a while that will leave EVE worse off than it was beforehand. First one since Incarna perhaps?

Obviously this is aimed at increasing the safety of career highsec players (or decreasing taxes for those currently in NPC corps), as it will have no other impact. Blue-on-blue violence almost never hits new players as they have nothing worth burning an AWOX alt to hit.

What this will do is:

- by acting as an increased reward for highsec mission grinding, encourage people who currently perform ISK generating activities outside highsec to transfer those activities to highsec. Many will not, but some will, and this will be a major indirect blow to lowsec and low-class wormholes which are already not offering much more than highsec.
- result in more 'tax scam' corps - those corps that mass recruit newbies, do nothing for them and then leech tax from them. Currently AWOXing results in most of those corps dying, and the game is better every time one of them does.
- remove the single best opportunity for new players to win solo PVP engagements (with advice).


On the plus side, lower opsec in recruiting (which will NOT last) will provide a brief opportunity for corp thieves. Until this corrects over time, disloyal corp members will be able to do more damage to corps than they can now - instead of killing one veteran's mission battleship or orca, a disloyal member will be able to steal entire ship replacement funds, skillbook assistance packages, or the like.



The change wouldn't be so bad if the 11% NPC corp tax applied to corps with this mode on. Then at least the impetus to leave dangerous space for high would be removed.

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Ned Thomas
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#37 - 2015-01-29 00:15:55 UTC
Vincent Athena wrote:
Black Pedro wrote:
Marlona Sky wrote:
Adding a tax to have this turned on will just encourage players to stay in the NPC to have the same effect. It has been proven time and time again that the players who enjoy and stay with the game are those who branched out into player corporations. This player interaction leads them towards other parts of the game that does not involve leveling up their Raven. Thus equating to new blood in parts of the game everyone is wanting.

Do you not see this?

Except this is not what is going to happen. There is no guarantee that new players will end up in good corps that want to support and train them. ........

But if they stay in an NPC corp, it's absolutely guaranteed that they will not get into a good corp.

For limited PvP training, there are still duels. Duels can also be used for web slinging freighters.

CCP, (or anyone else), with FF off, is there any easy way to have a corp free for all?


You'd either have to plan the FFA at least a day in advance, or for a "hey guys, grab a frigate and meet at the sun" the easiest would be a wormhole probably.
Alvatore DiMarco
Capricious Endeavours Ltd
#38 - 2015-01-29 00:26:57 UTC
Vincent Athena wrote:
What happens if I am shooting a corp mate at the exact time the 24 hour cool down expires? Assume I am in high sec with my safety green, and while my gun is cycling, the 24 hours runs out and the corp goes from allowing FF to not allowing it.


If this exact use case comes to pass, I believe it will open a spatio-temporal rift from which will pour an infinite number of winged monkeys.
Alvatore DiMarco
Capricious Endeavours Ltd
#39 - 2015-01-29 00:30:46 UTC
Sabriz Adoudel wrote:
This is an outright poor decision. Tiamat will be the first release in a while that will leave EVE worse off than it was beforehand. First one since Incarna perhaps?

Obviously this is aimed at increasing the safety of career highsec players (or decreasing taxes for those currently in NPC corps), as it will have no other impact. Blue-on-blue violence almost never hits new players as they have nothing worth burning an AWOX alt to hit.

What this will do is:

- by acting as an increased reward for highsec mission grinding, encourage people who currently perform ISK generating activities outside highsec to transfer those activities to highsec. Many will not, but some will, and this will be a major indirect blow to lowsec and low-class wormholes which are already not offering much more than highsec.
- result in more 'tax scam' corps - those corps that mass recruit newbies, do nothing for them and then leech tax from them. Currently AWOXing results in most of those corps dying, and the game is better every time one of them does.
- remove the single best opportunity for new players to win solo PVP engagements (with advice).


On the plus side, lower opsec in recruiting (which will NOT last) will provide a brief opportunity for corp thieves. Until this corrects over time, disloyal corp members will be able to do more damage to corps than they can now - instead of killing one veteran's mission battleship or orca, a disloyal member will be able to steal entire ship replacement funds, skillbook assistance packages, or the like.



The change wouldn't be so bad if the 11% NPC corp tax applied to corps with this mode on. Then at least the impetus to leave dangerous space for high would be removed.


First and foremost, please stop trotting out the Incarna pony. It's old, it's dead, its hair is falling out and it smells terrible.

With that out of the way, how does disabling friendly fire act as an increased reward for anything? How do you figure that corps currently operating outside of highsec will suddenly decide they have to turn this setting on and move to highsec?

What exactly makes you believe that the sky is falling down?
CCP Habakuk
C C P
C C P Alliance
#40 - 2015-01-29 00:37:34 UTC
Alvatore DiMarco wrote:
Vincent Athena wrote:
What happens if I am shooting a corp mate at the exact time the 24 hour cool down expires? Assume I am in high sec with my safety green, and while my gun is cycling, the 24 hours runs out and the corp goes from allowing FF to not allowing it.


If this exact use case comes to pass, I believe it will open a spatio-temporal rift from which will pour an infinite number of winged monkeys.


EVE would be full of spatio-temporal rifts given the amount of bugs and exploits which we fixed based on cases of exact timing like this - some by accident and many more by ingenious players who like to find edge cases and use them for their advantage. Cool

CCP Habakuk | EVE Quality Assurance | Team Five 0 | (Team Gridlock)

Bug reporting | Mass Testing