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Battleship PVP Viability
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Harvey James
The Sengoku Legacy
#41 - 2015-01-28 19:12:00 UTC
i'd love too know when the T3 cruiser nerf is happening .. march, april, may?...
and if we get any input at all .. not much of that happening lately

T3's need to be versatile so no rigs are necessary ... they should not have OP dps and tank

ABC's should be T2, remove drone assist, separate HAM's and Torps range, -3 HS for droneboats

Nerf web strength, Make the blaster Eagle worth using
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#42 - 2015-01-28 19:33:53 UTC
Harvey James wrote:
i'd love too know when the T3 cruiser nerf is happening .. march, april, may?...
and if we get any input at all .. not much of that happening lately


Sometime in the next few months.
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#43 - 2015-01-28 19:36:24 UTC
Serendipity Lost wrote:
baltec1 wrote:
W0lf Crendraven wrote:
Scan ress and warp speed are the deciding factors, and agility is to bad.


I have a megathron that warps and aligns faster than cruisers.



I have an IQ of 163 and an 'average' peen of 10.328 inches.

Oh... sorry, I thought this was going in a different direction.


He's still right Baltec1. Of course you can make your mega do amazing things, but at a price.

I can put a higs rig on my mega and make it so slow that you wouldn't notice I was getting away.

Now all 3 of us have correct statements. I'm just not sure what you and I are trying to prove.


The drawbacks are not all that great anymore.
Bullet Therapist
FT Cold Corporation
#44 - 2015-01-28 20:05:01 UTC
baltec1 wrote:


Bullet Therapist wrote:


Would help a few battleships, but not all. If there weren't bombs apoc, napoc, mega, domis and baddons would probably be more common


It takes over 100 bombs to kill our megathron fleet.


Actually, under the best circumstances (with max boosts) it takes 165 bombs to kill a baltec megathron with it's micro warp off and about 103 with MWDs on. It drops to 69 bomb sans MWD and a few less with MWD off without boosts. Also, this assumes that you're using max boosts, which is not the case if you're using t3 boosters.

For the best case scenario you're looking at 28 waves of bombs of six bombs. For a medium size bomb group launching staggered 4 wave runs you'd need about 7 runs to completely wipe a mega fleet, if they keep their wing, squad, and fleet boosters alive the entire fight. Absolute worst case, a single large bombing run could wipe your entire fleet.

Compare that with say, a tengu under bast case circumstances, which takes 593 bombs to destroy with t2 gear, or an eagle which takes about 315 bombs. All of this also ignores what's happening to your megathrons when you get hit by a bomb run, too. One of the biggest advantages of bombing is that it augments the ability of a DPS wing to chew through primaries for two reasons. First, it lowers the EHP pool and critical mass of DPS required to alpha an opposing fleet and second bomb waves break discipline. Each successive bomb wave makes the problem worse, and under continuous pressure your fleet will fall apart.

We know this, everyone knows this. It doesn't fit your narrative about being a special snowflake though. Like your arguments centered on a megathron that tracks as well as electron blasters (it doesn't because of math) or your mega that aligns and warps as fast as cruisers (this one can happen, but it's not doing much else,) it's just a red herring. You never post any fits or anything else, just some quip about how you can do it and no one else can.
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#45 - 2015-01-28 20:19:41 UTC
Bullet Therapist wrote:
baltec1 wrote:


Bullet Therapist wrote:


Would help a few battleships, but not all. If there weren't bombs apoc, napoc, mega, domis and baddons would probably be more common


It takes over 100 bombs to kill our megathron fleet.


Actually, under the best circumstances (with max boosts) it takes 165 bombs to kill a baltec megathron with it's micro warp off and about 103 with MWDs on. It drops to 69 bomb sans MWD and a few less with MWD off without boosts. Also, this assumes that you're using max boosts, which is not the case if you're using t3 boosters.

For the best case scenario you're looking at 28 waves of bombs of six bombs. For a medium size bomb group launching staggered 4 wave runs you'd need about 7 runs to completely wipe a mega fleet, if they keep their wing, squad, and fleet boosters alive the entire fight. Absolute worst case, a single large bombing run could wipe your entire fleet.

Compare that with say, a tengu under bast case circumstances, which takes 593 bombs to destroy with t2 gear, or an eagle which takes about 315 bombs. All of this also ignores what's happening to your megathrons when you get hit by a bomb run, too. One of the biggest advantages of bombing is that it augments the ability of a DPS wing to chew through primaries for two reasons. First, it lowers the EHP pool and critical mass of DPS required to alpha an opposing fleet and second bomb waves break discipline. Each successive bomb wave makes the problem worse, and under continuous pressure your fleet will fall apart.

We know this, everyone knows this. It doesn't fit your narrative about being a special snowflake though. Like your arguments centered on a megathron that tracks as well as electron blasters (it doesn't because of math) or your mega that aligns and warps as fast as cruisers (this one can happen, but it's not doing much else,) it's just a red herring. You never post any fits or anything else, just some quip about how you can do it and no one else can.


We never lost a baltec fleet to bombs nor any other armour battleship fleet. If they are so vulnerable then why is it that we use Domi fleet as our sledgehammer?

Go find where I said nobody can do what I do with battleships.

Feel free to explain how exactly Using a single rig slot and two nano reduces a ship to being useless.
Frostys Virpio
State War Academy
Caldari State
#46 - 2015-01-28 20:34:12 UTC
baltec1 wrote:
Bullet Therapist wrote:
baltec1 wrote:


Bullet Therapist wrote:


Would help a few battleships, but not all. If there weren't bombs apoc, napoc, mega, domis and baddons would probably be more common


It takes over 100 bombs to kill our megathron fleet.


Actually, under the best circumstances (with max boosts) it takes 165 bombs to kill a baltec megathron with it's micro warp off and about 103 with MWDs on. It drops to 69 bomb sans MWD and a few less with MWD off without boosts. Also, this assumes that you're using max boosts, which is not the case if you're using t3 boosters.

For the best case scenario you're looking at 28 waves of bombs of six bombs. For a medium size bomb group launching staggered 4 wave runs you'd need about 7 runs to completely wipe a mega fleet, if they keep their wing, squad, and fleet boosters alive the entire fight. Absolute worst case, a single large bombing run could wipe your entire fleet.

Compare that with say, a tengu under bast case circumstances, which takes 593 bombs to destroy with t2 gear, or an eagle which takes about 315 bombs. All of this also ignores what's happening to your megathrons when you get hit by a bomb run, too. One of the biggest advantages of bombing is that it augments the ability of a DPS wing to chew through primaries for two reasons. First, it lowers the EHP pool and critical mass of DPS required to alpha an opposing fleet and second bomb waves break discipline. Each successive bomb wave makes the problem worse, and under continuous pressure your fleet will fall apart.

We know this, everyone knows this. It doesn't fit your narrative about being a special snowflake though. Like your arguments centered on a megathron that tracks as well as electron blasters (it doesn't because of math) or your mega that aligns and warps as fast as cruisers (this one can happen, but it's not doing much else,) it's just a red herring. You never post any fits or anything else, just some quip about how you can do it and no one else can.


We never lost a baltec fleet to bombs nor any other armour battleship fleet. If they are so vulnerable then why is it that we use Domi fleet as our sledgehammer?

Go find where I said nobody can do what I do with battleships.

Feel free to explain how exactly Using a single rig slot and two nano reduces a ship to being useless.


It kinda ends up being go armor or go home tho. It takes over a hundred bombs to destroy a baltec but can the same be said about any non-armor boat?
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#47 - 2015-01-28 20:38:58 UTC
Frostys Virpio wrote:

It kinda ends up being go armor or go home tho. It takes over a hundred bombs to destroy a baltec but can the same be said about any non-armor boat?


Thats not entirely a battleship only problem and more of an issue with bombs themselves. I would love to see heavy sheild doctrines return but at the same time we all know it would become Mealstroms or go home again.Ugh
Harvey James
The Sengoku Legacy
#48 - 2015-01-28 20:45:28 UTC
baltec1 wrote:
Frostys Virpio wrote:

It kinda ends up being go armor or go home tho. It takes over a hundred bombs to destroy a baltec but can the same be said about any non-armor boat?


Thats not entirely a battleship only problem and more of an issue with bombs themselves. I would love to see heavy sheild doctrines return but at the same time we all know it would become Mealstroms or go home again.Ugh


an arty problem then

T3's need to be versatile so no rigs are necessary ... they should not have OP dps and tank

ABC's should be T2, remove drone assist, separate HAM's and Torps range, -3 HS for droneboats

Nerf web strength, Make the blaster Eagle worth using
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#49 - 2015-01-28 20:51:35 UTC  |  Edited by: baltec1
Harvey James wrote:


an arty problem then


Nah, alpha will always be king and the maelstrom does it very well. As said, the biggest problem is the t3s and sentries. Deal with them and the entire ship lineup becomes healthier. Bombs could do with a tweek but it needs a great deal of care as they should still be viable.
Harvey James
The Sengoku Legacy
#50 - 2015-01-28 20:56:16 UTC
baltec1 wrote:
Harvey James wrote:


an arty problem then


Nah, alpha will always be king and the maelstrom does it very well. As said, the biggest problem is the t3s and sentries. Deal with them and the entire ship lineup becomes healthier. Bombs could do with a tweek but it needs a great deal of care as they should still be viable.


yeah so reduce the alpha for some RoF , maybe a few other tweaks with the ship and then other ships might get used more.

T3's need to be versatile so no rigs are necessary ... they should not have OP dps and tank

ABC's should be T2, remove drone assist, separate HAM's and Torps range, -3 HS for droneboats

Nerf web strength, Make the blaster Eagle worth using
Bullet Therapist
FT Cold Corporation
#51 - 2015-01-28 20:59:22 UTC
baltec1 wrote:
Bullet Therapist wrote:
baltec1 wrote:


Bullet Therapist wrote:


Would help a few battleships, but not all. If there weren't bombs apoc, napoc, mega, domis and baddons would probably be more common


It takes over 100 bombs to kill our megathron fleet.


Actually, under the best circumstances (with max boosts) it takes 165 bombs to kill a baltec megathron with it's micro warp off and about 103 with MWDs on. It drops to 69 bomb sans MWD and a few less with MWD off without boosts. Also, this assumes that you're using max boosts, which is not the case if you're using t3 boosters.

For the best case scenario you're looking at 28 waves of bombs of six bombs. For a medium size bomb group launching staggered 4 wave runs you'd need about 7 runs to completely wipe a mega fleet, if they keep their wing, squad, and fleet boosters alive the entire fight. Absolute worst case, a single large bombing run could wipe your entire fleet.

Compare that with say, a tengu under bast case circumstances, which takes 593 bombs to destroy with t2 gear, or an eagle which takes about 315 bombs. All of this also ignores what's happening to your megathrons when you get hit by a bomb run, too. One of the biggest advantages of bombing is that it augments the ability of a DPS wing to chew through primaries for two reasons. First, it lowers the EHP pool and critical mass of DPS required to alpha an opposing fleet and second bomb waves break discipline. Each successive bomb wave makes the problem worse, and under continuous pressure your fleet will fall apart.

We know this, everyone knows this. It doesn't fit your narrative about being a special snowflake though. Like your arguments centered on a megathron that tracks as well as electron blasters (it doesn't because of math) or your mega that aligns and warps as fast as cruisers (this one can happen, but it's not doing much else,) it's just a red herring. You never post any fits or anything else, just some quip about how you can do it and no one else can.


We never lost a baltec fleet to bombs nor any other armour battleship fleet. If they are so vulnerable then why is it that we use Domi fleet as our sledgehammer?

Go find where I said nobody can do what I do with battleships.

Feel free to explain how exactly Using a single rig slot and two nano reduces a ship to being useless.


No you havent, because you don't need bombers when you can simply use tengus to obliterate baltec megas, and for reasons stated above, if you had cared to read them, bombs don't need to obliterate your fleet to be the reason you've lost a fight. Also KBs are that -> way to see how much carnage bombers can unleash on domis (which are much more vulnerable to bombs than megas). See HED-GP and F4R2 for details.

Two nanos on a mega is a naked align time of 8 seconds, which is about 2-3 seconds longer than most naked t1 cruisers, and a single hyperspatial is a warp speed of 2.4 au/sec. Tell the whole story about implants if you're going to imply their use. If you actually want a megathron to warp and align as fast as cruisers that aren't using nanos it's more like 3 nanos and 3 hyperspatials. Even then, are you following primaries or applying DPS as quickly as the cruisers in your gang? What happens when you try to make up for these deficiencies too?

Quote:
Go find where I said nobody can do what I do with battleships.

So you want me to quote basically every reply you've ever posted in a battleship thread? That the problem is the pilots? That people aren't innovative enough? The implication here is that you are innovative and no-one else is, in a game where we're now talking about hyperdunking, petes, pos bowling exploits, wrecking balls, and all of the other crazy stuff that follows from the sandbox experience. Roll
Bullet Therapist
FT Cold Corporation
#52 - 2015-01-28 21:00:45 UTC
baltec1 wrote:
Frostys Virpio wrote:

It kinda ends up being go armor or go home tho. It takes over a hundred bombs to destroy a baltec but can the same be said about any non-armor boat?


Thats not entirely a battleship only problem and more of an issue with bombs themselves. I would love to see heavy sheild doctrines return but at the same time we all know it would become Mealstroms or go home again.Ugh


At least we kind of agree on this.
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#53 - 2015-01-28 21:02:22 UTC
Harvey James wrote:


yeah so reduce the alpha for some RoF , maybe a few other tweaks with the ship and then other ships might get used more.


Then you lose the thing that makes arty unique. Honestly the ship and weapon are fine as we do have a hard counter to it. Sheild battleships dont see much use in the large scale bloodbaths of sov fights but they do just fine in smaller scale fights that dont see bomber wings.
Frostys Virpio
State War Academy
Caldari State
#54 - 2015-01-28 21:07:11 UTC
Bullet Therapist wrote:

So you want me to quote basically every reply you've ever posted in a battleship thread? That the problem is the pilots? That people aren't innovative enough? The implication here is that you are innovative and no-one else is, in a game where we're now talking about hyperdunking, petes, pos bowling exploits, wrecking balls, and all of the other crazy stuff that follows from the sandbox experience. Roll


When he says the problem is the pilot, I'm pretty sure he means he is willing to make sacrifice for it while other player seem to be locked in a mentality preventing them from making such sacrifice.
Frostys Virpio
State War Academy
Caldari State
#55 - 2015-01-28 21:08:07 UTC
Harvey James wrote:
baltec1 wrote:
Harvey James wrote:


an arty problem then


Nah, alpha will always be king and the maelstrom does it very well. As said, the biggest problem is the t3s and sentries. Deal with them and the entire ship lineup becomes healthier. Bombs could do with a tweek but it needs a great deal of care as they should still be viable.


yeah so reduce the alpha for some RoF , maybe a few other tweaks with the ship and then other ships might get used more.


You mean like Tach?
Harvey James
The Sengoku Legacy
#56 - 2015-01-28 21:08:36 UTC  |  Edited by: Harvey James
baltec1 wrote:
Harvey James wrote:


yeah so reduce the alpha for some RoF , maybe a few other tweaks with the ship and then other ships might get used more.


Then you lose the thing that makes arty unique. Honestly the ship and weapon are fine as we do have a hard counter to it. Sheild battleships dont see much use in the large scale bloodbaths of sov fights but they do just fine in smaller scale fights that dont see bomber wings.


well theres a better balance too find than there currently is with arty's .. they don't need 10k alpha , rails do about 4k, so there is plenty of range too play with there.

T3's need to be versatile so no rigs are necessary ... they should not have OP dps and tank

ABC's should be T2, remove drone assist, separate HAM's and Torps range, -3 HS for droneboats

Nerf web strength, Make the blaster Eagle worth using
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#57 - 2015-01-28 21:10:43 UTC
Bullet Therapist wrote:


Two nanos on a mega is a naked align time of 8 seconds, which is about 2-3 seconds longer than most naked t1 cruisers, and a single hyperspatial is a warp speed of 2.4 au/sec.


I have said it many times, EFT lies. When burning gates I keep up with harpies and leave cruisers trailing behind. There has been a few times I winded up as the fleet scout simply because I burned ahead of the fleet.

Bullet Therapist wrote:

Tell the whole story about implants if you're going to imply their use. If you actually want a megathron to warp and align as fast as cruisers that aren't using nanos it's more like 3 nanos and 3 hyperspatials.


Implants dont take up slots on your ship.

Bullet Therapist wrote:

Even then, are you following primaries or applying DPS as quickly as the cruisers in your gang? What happens when you try to make up for these deficiencies too?

Its a simple rule, if it dies before I lock it they didn't need my firepower. If I lock it they need my firepower.


Quote:
Go find where I said nobody can do what I do with battleships.

So you want me to quote basically every reply you've ever posted in a battleship thread? [/quote]

Feel free to go find where I said nobody can do what I can.
Ines Tegator
Serious Business Inc. Ltd. LLC. etc.
#58 - 2015-01-28 21:37:00 UTC
Battleships are a *very* complicated issue that can't be resolved by simple nerfs/buffs. The problem is systemic and not related to the hulls themselves. At least, not completely. Some of the hulls are actually really attractive for small scale fleets now, after tiericide.

The #1 problem is that other ships are more attractive. Ishtar, I'm looking at you.

The #2 problem hasn't been mentioned yet - escalation. BS fleets are big shiny targets that look great on killboards. BS also have limited mobility, and are pretty easy to lock down in a bubble. This combination brings out the cynos. Goodbye battleship fleet.

With a BS (or even BC's), you commit to fighting or dying. When your enemy can hotdrop a cap fleet on you, that's a commitment that's not worth making. With the power projection nerfs, this may actually be addressed already. We can't honestly tell though because Ishtar™.

Overhaul Dscan!
Foxicity
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#59 - 2015-01-28 22:06:26 UTC
Ines Tegator wrote:
Battleships are a *very* complicated issue that can't be resolved by simple nerfs/buffs. The problem is systemic and not related to the hulls themselves. At least, not completely. Some of the hulls are actually really attractive for small scale fleets now, after tiericide.

The #1 problem is that other ships are more attractive. Ishtar, I'm looking at you.

The #2 problem hasn't been mentioned yet - escalation. BS fleets are big shiny targets that look great on killboards. BS also have limited mobility, and are pretty easy to lock down in a bubble. This combination brings out the cynos. Goodbye battleship fleet.

With a BS (or even BC's), you commit to fighting or dying. When your enemy can hotdrop a cap fleet on you, that's a commitment that's not worth making. With the power projection nerfs, this may actually be addressed already. We can't honestly tell though because Ishtar™.


Let's keep things amicable guys, we're here for the BS discussion! (Not directed at you Ines)

It's an interesting thing you suggest, Ines. If I'm reading it right, you think battleships are an appealing target to cruisers and caps because, while battleships can somewhat effectively combat the cruisers or capitals targeting them, they lack the 'true' mobility of cruisers or the cyno-mobility of capitals, leaving them with an awkward disadvantage. Thus, while their damage and tanking ability is commensurate with their cost, they end up being something of a 'white whale' for more-mobile fleets to tackle and destroy, or avoid.
Harvey James
The Sengoku Legacy
#60 - 2015-01-28 22:33:20 UTC
Foxicity wrote:
Ines Tegator wrote:
Battleships are a *very* complicated issue that can't be resolved by simple nerfs/buffs. The problem is systemic and not related to the hulls themselves. At least, not completely. Some of the hulls are actually really attractive for small scale fleets now, after tiericide.

The #1 problem is that other ships are more attractive. Ishtar, I'm looking at you.

The #2 problem hasn't been mentioned yet - escalation. BS fleets are big shiny targets that look great on killboards. BS also have limited mobility, and are pretty easy to lock down in a bubble. This combination brings out the cynos. Goodbye battleship fleet.

With a BS (or even BC's), you commit to fighting or dying. When your enemy can hotdrop a cap fleet on you, that's a commitment that's not worth making. With the power projection nerfs, this may actually be addressed already. We can't honestly tell though because Ishtar™.


Let's keep things amicable guys, we're here for the BS discussion! (Not directed at you Ines)

It's an interesting thing you suggest, Ines. If I'm reading it right, you think battleships are an appealing target to cruisers and caps because, while battleships can somewhat effectively combat the cruisers or capitals targeting them, they lack the 'true' mobility of cruisers or the cyno-mobility of capitals, leaving them with an awkward disadvantage. Thus, while their damage and tanking ability is commensurate with their cost, they end up being something of a 'white whale' for more-mobile fleets to tackle and destroy, or avoid.


which i suppose leads on to the next part of the battleship problem , capitals still have too much mobility and carriers at least are still too strong compared, without being hugely more expensive too field.

T3's need to be versatile so no rigs are necessary ... they should not have OP dps and tank

ABC's should be T2, remove drone assist, separate HAM's and Torps range, -3 HS for droneboats

Nerf web strength, Make the blaster Eagle worth using