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Warp Assist Module
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Nolak Ataru
Hedion University
Amarr Empire
#81 - 2015-01-21 17:25:33 UTC
Except you're wrong. Here are some nice counters to ganks:
1) Use a JF. Jump out if you get bumped.
2) Webbing alt in a Hyena with a faction web for the range, or a Dramiel with a faction web.
3) Burn in the direction they are bumping you with a frigate or inty, warp freighter after 150km.
4) Don't move 20b in a single freighter.
5) Don't AFK haul.
6) Use a Proteus if you're hauling something like a bunch of implants.
7) Use bulkheads.

Bumping freighters is a little bit of a science. You have to make sure that you don't bump him towards a celestial that he can warp off to.
Adding bulkheads means more warm bodies. More warm bodies means less of a share for everyone. Less of a share for everyone means that the profit is lower. Lower profit means a lower chance of your freighter getting ganked. Don't get ganked. Use bulkheads.
I assume everyone who's on grid with my freighter is a potential ganker or scout.
Serendipity Lost
Repo Industries
#82 - 2015-01-21 17:42:39 UTC
Black Pedro says stuff.

Ganking freighters is easy, and I'm not an F1. You assume too much. Pull the kb on this character and see what 2 weeks of math experiments accomplished against pimp marauders in Apapanke. Much more challenging to pull off and it took 3 of us 2 weeks to master it, profit over a billion isk and get bored of the process and move on. Getting a -10 character into a cat and getting him to a freighter doesn't require luck, sorcery or any particularly difficult manual dexterity. It's a rinse and repeat operation.

So here's the deal. I'm not asking for a marauder to have a better way to evade a suicide gank - they have plenty of options. I'm not asking for a way for a covetor or hulk to get away from a suicide gank - it's a small t1 or t2 mining ship and they have drones and the ability to sport a healthy tank - it's reasonable that 1 or a few guys in t1 fit destroyers can spank it with ease.

I'm saying that a billion plus isk capital class ship being taken down with no chance on its own to escape by a handful of t1 fit destroyers is unbalanced. That's why it's rampant in its occurance right now. The whole thing is OP in favor of the catalysts. (kind of like everyone flew drams when they were the cat's meow, or falcons when they were OP and so on)

You guys always drum the afk freighter pilot mantra so here's a counter. Give them a robust active tank. If they are afk as you say, then BOOM they are yours for the taking. If they are at the keyboard and activate their tank then make it work out that it costs a billion isk in catalysts to take down a billion isk freighter. That seems pretty OK to me.

It's cool that you compared ganking a freighter to catching a lone ratting carrier. They are practically the same except... hmmm...... oh yeah, the carrier has quite the tanking ability, quite the offensive capability and so on. You stating they are the same thing pretty much borks any credibility you have on this matter.

There is a clear reason why folks gank freighters in HS and they don't gank orcas in HS. It's because freighters are compartively easy. Do you have a better explanation? They are both capital class ships.
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#83 - 2015-01-21 18:02:06 UTC
Serendipity Lost wrote:
Black Pedro says stuff.

Ganking freighters is easy, and I'm not an F1. You assume too much. Pull the kb on this character and see what 2 weeks of math experiments accomplished against pimp marauders in Apapanke. Much more challenging to pull off and it took 3 of us 2 weeks to master it, profit over a billion isk and get bored of the process and move on. Getting a -10 character into a cat and getting him to a freighter doesn't require luck, sorcery or any particularly difficult manual dexterity. It's a rinse and repeat operation.

So here's the deal. I'm not asking for a marauder to have a better way to evade a suicide gank - they have plenty of options. I'm not asking for a way for a covetor or hulk to get away from a suicide gank - it's a small t1 or t2 mining ship and they have drones and the ability to sport a healthy tank - it's reasonable that 1 or a few guys in t1 fit destroyers can spank it with ease.

I'm saying that a billion plus isk capital class ship being taken down with no chance on its own to escape by a handful of t1 fit destroyers is unbalanced. That's why it's rampant in its occurance right now. The whole thing is OP in favor of the catalysts. (kind of like everyone flew drams when they were the cat's meow, or falcons when they were OP and so on)

You guys always drum the afk freighter pilot mantra so here's a counter. Give them a robust active tank. If they are afk as you say, then BOOM they are yours for the taking. If they are at the keyboard and activate their tank then make it work out that it costs a billion isk in catalysts to take down a billion isk freighter. That seems pretty OK to me.

It's cool that you compared ganking a freighter to catching a lone ratting carrier. They are practically the same except... hmmm...... oh yeah, the carrier has quite the tanking ability, quite the offensive capability and so on. You stating they are the same thing pretty much borks any credibility you have on this matter.

There is a clear reason why folks gank freighters in HS and they don't gank orcas in HS. It's because freighters are compartively easy. Do you have a better explanation? They are both capital class ships.


Ganking is only as easy as the victim lets it be.
Annette Nolen
Perkone
Caldari State
#84 - 2015-01-21 18:04:43 UTC
Not going to try quoting on mobile. Just all the same people repeating the same stuff. So I'll repeat some things too.

Avoidance is not a counter to the mechanic of bumping. It's avoidance.

This isn't about safety ot ganking explicitly. As it applies to cap ships in high sec, it's about the fact that bumping has no mechanical counter, which this suggestion provides. Bumping in high sec is a far broader issue than just setting up freighters for ganks. And as far as the narrow life of a freighter pilot is concerned, we deal with getting bumped far more often than getting ganked (in other words, most freighter bumping isn't followed by ganking; that doesn't somehow make it a mechanic that should exist without counter).

As for the doom and gloom hyperbole about IWIN buttons... the proposed module as described is incredibly weak as a mechanic. Effective use to counter an active freighter bump would require two to three assist ships minimum to get reasonable coverage to make it hard for a bumper to simply bump out of range of the assist ship. And the random landing should provide bumpers ample opportunity to reacquire targets.

I get that some people don't believe bumping needs a mechanical counter, and I respect that opinion (you're wrong, but you are at least wrong in a valid way). The rest of you need to go back and reread the details of the suggestion before starting in on the reactionary hyperbole about how this is some iwin idea that will spell the end of ganking forever. To be clear (and this is a personal, not corp opinion), I LIKE ganking. It's good for business. I have zero interest in proposing something that would actually drastically reduce high sec freighter ganking. This idea certainly won't.
Serendipity Lost
Repo Industries
#85 - 2015-01-21 18:23:05 UTC
Nolak Ataru wrote:
Except you're wrong. Here are some nice counters to ganks:
1) Use a JF. Jump out if you get bumped.
2) Webbing alt in a Hyena with a faction web for the range, or a Dramiel with a faction web.
3) Burn in the direction they are bumping you with a frigate or inty, warp freighter after 150km.
4) Don't move 20b in a single freighter.
5) Don't AFK haul.
6) Use a Proteus if you're hauling something like a bunch of implants.
7) Use bulkheads.

Bumping freighters is a little bit of a science. You have to make sure that you don't bump him towards a celestial that he can warp off to.
Adding bulkheads means more warm bodies. More warm bodies means less of a share for everyone. Less of a share for everyone means that the profit is lower. Lower profit means a lower chance of your freighter getting ganked. Don't get ganked. Use bulkheads.
I assume everyone who's on grid with my freighter is a potential ganker or scout.


1. So basically don't use a freighter - Not a counter
2. It's easier to bump a capital ship before it's webbed off than it is to web off a cap before it's bumped (I do both frequently)
3. This just doesn't work - stop lying - Not a counter
4. Not a counter
5. Not a counter
6. Not a counter
7. You said it your self just below it - it doesn't change anything but some math - Not a counter

My point is that the ship itself has zero counter to it. Sure sure, bring friends blah blah. I'm ok w/ group game play, but I also think that a CAPITAL CLASS ship should have an installed counter to a noob in an ibis bumping him. I'm not asking for a free pass. I'm not asking for 99% survivablity. I'm asking for some chance greater than ZERO and you're telling me I'm unreasonable.
Serendipity Lost
Repo Industries
#86 - 2015-01-21 18:25:15 UTC
Baltec1, you still owe me an actual list from 2 pages ago. Put up or shhhhh.

Nah, jk, you make me happy every time you share your wisdom and in depth insights to pretty much every facet of eve. I guess it's the detail you always bring to the discussion. Thanks man. Huggs.
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#87 - 2015-01-21 18:27:35 UTC
Annette Nolen wrote:


Avoidance is not a counter to the mechanic of bumping. It's avoidance.


Sure its a counter, you stop them from doing it at all.

Annette Nolen wrote:

This isn't about safety ot ganking explicitly.


Given that bumping is only ever complained about because of the fact that it is used in the ganking of freighters it has everything to do with ganking.

Annette Nolen wrote:

As for the doom and gloom hyperbole about IWIN buttons... the proposed module as described is incredibly weak as a mechanic.


It makes it impossible to hold down a ship, thats a fairly massive I win button.

Annette Nolen wrote:

I get that some people don't believe bumping needs a mechanical counter.


It has several that we have been repeatedly telling you about.
Serendipity Lost
Repo Industries
#88 - 2015-01-21 18:42:14 UTC
You haven't listed any counters that a freighter has. You've listed strategies, some ideas, a work around and one flat out lie.

What counter does the freighter have to it's only nemisis? None, the freighter has none.

I it's possible to do this or that. He's not asking for a possibility. He's asking that the subject ship - a freighter - have 1 counter to bumping. It's a freighter, it's not a beach ball - he just want's it to act a little more like a massive capital ship and a little less like a spherical piece of plastic filled with air.

Give the ship itself a counter. Don't show that with a 15 man support fleet a capital ship can survive a handful of t1 fit destroyers. That's just not reasonable.

Baltec1 I'm calling you out. Go and gank 10 orcas in HS over then next week and I'll aknowledge that your arguments have merit.
Nolak Ataru
Hedion University
Amarr Empire
#89 - 2015-01-21 18:42:16 UTC
Serendipity Lost wrote:
1. So basically don't use a freighter - Not a counter
2. It's easier to bump a capital ship before it's webbed off than it is to web off a cap before it's bumped (I do both frequently)
3. This just doesn't work - stop lying - Not a counter
4. Not a counter
5. Not a counter
6. Not a counter
7. You said it your self just below it - it doesn't change anything but some math - Not a counter

My point is that the ship itself has zero counter to it. Sure sure, bring friends blah blah. I'm ok w/ group game play, but I also think that a CAPITAL CLASS ship should have an installed counter to a noob in an ibis bumping him. I'm not asking for a free pass. I'm not asking for 99% survivablity. I'm asking for some chance greater than ZERO and you're telling me I'm unreasonable.


1) JF's aren't freighters anymore? Today on Sesame Street....
2) You move the frigate into position BEFORE you uncloak the freighter. Not that hard.
3) It does work. Just because you can't figure it out doesn't mean it doesn't work. You have not presented any evidence or substantial proof that it does not work.
4) It is a counter if it stops your freighter from getting ganked. It's been common sense since day 1 that you don't haul a Guardian-Vexor in your Iteron V. Apply that common sense here.
5) Again, it is a counter if it stops your freighter from getting ganked. AFK hauling has been decried since day 1.
6) Again, it is a counter if it stops your freighter from getting ganked. A Proteus sans Slaves and without pimp can hit over 340k EHP with the bonus of it getting into warp faster, lower signature radius, and a very cute anti-Talos resist profile.
7) I said adding bulkheads tips the risk+SRP/reward scales against the gankers so they will be less likely to attack the freighter.

Comparing a glorified empty tin can designed to hold stuff to an armored ship of war designed to stand up against some of the toughest weapon systems in the known universe and still come out swinging is downright dishonest, and at this point I think you're just trolling.
Annette Nolen
Perkone
Caldari State
#90 - 2015-01-21 18:46:52 UTC
baltec1 wrote:


Annette Nolen wrote:

As for the doom and gloom hyperbole about IWIN buttons... the proposed module as described is incredibly weak as a mechanic.


It makes it impossible to hold down a ship, thats a fairly massive I win button.

Annette Nolen wrote:

I get that some people don't believe bumping needs a mechanical counter.


It has several that we have been repeatedly telling you about.


Yep, it would prevent you from pinning a ship with 100% certainty. "Impossible" is a bit of a stretch. It would take a poor bumper/gank team to not still come out on top most of the time with the proposed module.

No, you've told us about many avoidance techniques. But now you're just being semantically obtuse. The only counter in this thread is the manual piloting to a warpout fleetmate. I agree that in a good spacesim physics engine with realtime flight characteristics that would be a sufficient counter. I disagree that EVE's engine comes anywhere close to this, hence the need for an actual game mechanic dedicated to addresing the effect of having your alignment disrupted.
Serendipity Lost
Repo Industries
#91 - 2015-01-21 18:59:07 UTC
I think in good space sim physics the bumping ibis would pretty much smash itself into the side of a freighter one time and be done.
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#92 - 2015-01-21 19:00:31 UTC
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#93 - 2015-01-21 19:01:49 UTC
Annette Nolen wrote:


Yep, it would prevent you from pinning a ship with 100% certainty. "Impossible" is a bit of a stretch. It would take a poor bumper/gank team to not still come out on top most of the time with the proposed module.




100% certainty to get out of being bumped means there is no room at all for success. Thus impossible.
Serendipity Lost
Repo Industries
#94 - 2015-01-21 19:05:49 UTC
baltec1 wrote:
Serendipity Lost wrote:


Baltec1 I'm calling you out. Go and gank 10 orcas in HS over then next week and I'll aknowledge that your arguments have merit.



https://zkillboard.com/kill/44026087/

https://zkillboard.com/kill/44014024/

https://zkillboard.com/kill/44010948/

https://zkillboard.com/kill/44005832/

https://zkillboard.com/kill/44002941/

https://zkillboard.com/kill/43990082/

https://zkillboard.com/kill/43988763/

https://zkillboard.com/kill/43975688/

https://zkillboard.com/kill/43962727/

https://zkillboard.com/kill/43961855/

3 days.




No no sweety. I'm calling YOU out. I didn't see YOU on any of them.

Sometimes I feel like you and I aren't on the same page so to speak.

This isn't where you start arguing some vague meaning of the word 'you' is it?
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#95 - 2015-01-21 19:16:31 UTC
Serendipity Lost wrote:




No no sweety. I'm calling YOU out. I didn't see YOU on any of them.

Sometimes I feel like you and I aren't on the same page so to speak.

This isn't where you start arguing some vague meaning of the word 'you' is it?


Why does it matter whos nake is on those kills? You asked for 10 in a week and here they are. What exactly is your point?
Serendipity Lost
Repo Industries
#96 - 2015-01-21 19:23:50 UTC  |  Edited by: Serendipity Lost
baltec1 wrote:
Serendipity Lost wrote:




No no sweety. I'm calling YOU out. I didn't see YOU on any of them.

Sometimes I feel like you and I aren't on the same page so to speak.

This isn't where you start arguing some vague meaning of the word 'you' is it?


Why does it matter whos nake is on those kills? You asked for 10 in a week and here they are. What exactly is your point?


It matters to me. I called you out. Stating I would acknowledge your arguments on this matter if you performed the task.

It matters because you would actually have to do something to get something. Not just rest on the efforts of others. I'm lookinf for you to log into the game and participate personally in 10 orca ganks. I didn't want to put it out for everyone to read, but I find your opinion lacks a certain credibility on this matter.

If you completed the 10 orca task no one could actually question your credibility. I am trying to elevate you from some random mouthpiece that spouts generalizations and claims to be the voice of the many to someone who has actually been there and done that.

I'm just trying to help you out dude. If you're not up to it, then just bow out. (Sorry, I didn't want' to go full expose on you, but you kind of cornered me)

Edit: I can contract you a destroyer skill book if you need it.
Black Pedro
Mine.
#97 - 2015-01-21 19:31:46 UTC
Serendipity Lost wrote:
Black Pedro says
I'm saying that a billion plus isk capital class ship being taken down with no chance on its own to escape by a handful of t1 fit destroyers is unbalanced. That's why it's rampant in its occurance right now. The whole thing is OP in favor of the catalysts. (kind of like everyone flew drams when they were the cat's meow, or falcons when they were OP and so on)

You guys always drum the afk freighter pilot mantra so here's a counter. Give them a robust active tank. If they are afk as you say, then BOOM they are yours for the taking. If they are at the keyboard and activate their tank then make it work out that it costs a billion isk in catalysts to take down a billion isk freighter. That seems pretty OK to me.

It's cool that you compared ganking a freighter to catching a lone ratting carrier. They are practically the same except... hmmm...... oh yeah, the carrier has quite the tanking ability, quite the offensive capability and so on. You stating they are the same thing pretty much borks any credibility you have on this matter.

There is a clear reason why folks gank freighters in HS and they don't gank orcas in HS. It's because freighters are compartively easy. Do you have a better explanation? They are both capital class ships.

So the lone carrier tackled by a competent gang or even lone ship and kept there until the reinforcement come to finish it off has a chance to escape by themselves? Perhaps more than a freighter, but it is still vanishingly small if the tacklers know what they are doing and have the firepower to call in. A capital ship is vulnerable to smaller ships locking it down. That is just the way the game is and always has been and this exactly what is happening to these unescorted freighters who travel without friends.

I don't what highsec you are referring to but Orca's get ganked all the time. I haven't done the math but I get the impression they get ganked even more than freighters as untanked, they are gankable by a smaller number of players. But they are also susceptible to bumping - in fact the only time I have ever experienced bumping myself was in my Orca perhaps because I always fly my freighter with a webbing escort. Sure Orcas can be fit with a MWD to allow a 10s warp (which does make them highly resistant to bumping), but many players don't do that or fly them AFK where they are still bumped and often ganked during the same ops that catch freighters.

The 8 Golden Rules of Eve

Why Do They Gank?
Herr Wilkus
Aggressive Salvage Services LLC
#98 - 2015-01-26 12:58:07 UTC
Serendipity Lost wrote:

It matters to me. I called you out. Stating I would acknowledge your arguments on this matter if you performed the task.

It matters because you would actually have to do something to get something. Not just rest on the efforts of others. I'm lookinf for you to log into the game and participate personally in 10 orca ganks. I didn't want to put it out for everyone to read, but I find your opinion lacks a certain credibility on this matter.

If you completed the 10 orca task no one could actually question your credibility. I am trying to elevate you from some random mouthpiece that spouts generalizations and claims to be the voice of the many to someone who has actually been there and done that.

I'm just trying to help you out dude. If you're not up to it, then just bow out. (Sorry, I didn't want' to go full expose on you, but you kind of cornered me)

Edit: I can contract you a destroyer skill book if you need it.


Haha, tell me more about how baltec1 has no ganking cred, thats the funniest thing I've read in awhile.

Aside from the obvious - posting killmails don't 'prove' anything.

You do realize that most gankers use -10 alts to do the actual ganking, right?

'Herr Wilkus' hasn't ganked anyone in years - because it long, long ago became more efficient to gank with a -10 alt than have your main absorb all the new punishments tacked onto ganking by CCP over the last 7 years.
Annette Nolen
Perkone
Caldari State
#99 - 2015-01-28 16:49:26 UTC
Oscae wrote:
However, what happens when an organised group of people get together and make an effort to bump you out of align to gank you. Your mod now makes all of their hard work redundant as you disregard physics and slingshot yourself to the nearest celestial. Sure they can follow you, but what's to say you're not already aligning back to gate with a webber freind to speed things up?

How can your proposal help in the first situation but not be a pain to balance for the second?


I managed to miss this post entirely back when it was posted, sorry :/

Yes, fundamentally, the whole point of the module is that a bumper should not be 100% certain/guaranteed to keep a cap ship locked down. I'm not making their "hard work redundant"; I'm offering a way to escalate the situation.

The limitations of the module as described already make it nowhere near a certain escape. A decent bumper should have no problem keeping you 10k away from your immobile assist ship, preventing it from ever cycling at all. It would take reasonable 3d coverage with three or four assist ships to really make it tough for a bumper to get you out of range. If I'm bringing four alts to counter a single bumper, then yes I expect it to become tougher for them to keep me locked down.

But not impossible. An "organised group of people" should have no problem blapping my completely immobile and vulnerable assist ships. They should also have no problem following me into warp/probing me down quickly if I DO happen to get away, as the random/awkward landing is intentionally designed to give them a chance to re-acquire me as a target.

Will people sometimes get away with this module? Yes, that's the point. Bumping is currently a certainty; it should not be.

In other words, if we're just nitpicking the implementation, fine. Make it a 5k range, or a 90s cycle time, or add some kind of cool down timer on the landing that prevents the target from entering warp at all for 30s or 60s or whatever is needed to give the bumpers a reasonable chance to find you again. Whatever is needed to ensure that both sides have non-zero odds of coming out on top.
Annette Nolen
Perkone
Caldari State
#100 - 2015-01-28 16:53:54 UTC
baltec1 wrote:
Annette Nolen wrote:


Yep, it would prevent you from pinning a ship with 100% certainty. "Impossible" is a bit of a stretch. It would take a poor bumper/gank team to not still come out on top most of the time with the proposed module.




100% certainty to get out of being bumped means there is no room at all for success. Thus impossible.


The described module does not provide 100% certainty of escape. But if you think it does, then offer tweaks to the values until it doesn't. The basic concept is sound; with appropriately tweaked values NEITHER SIDE should be certain to win. Which is the essence of the suggestion.