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Warfare & Tactics

 
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Tired of Pointless Wars...

Author
Demetri Dentrov
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#141 - 2015-01-22 05:39:05 UTC
Yeah, I feel the Ops pain, but I don't really see where anything needs to be done about it. We, as Industrial players, already have the tools we need.

However, I do find the opinion of the full time PvP crowd as amusing, that we should "fight" or "hire mercenaries." Why? Do you have to go through heroic measures when you are under war dec? No? You just fly the same gun loaded warships you were flying before. Perhaps one that's a bit different... How do you think that ship came to be in your possession? Our tools of the trade are billion isk unarmed targets in space that, by design, have no weapons and the maneuverability of a beached whale. We are hopelessly, hilariously outgunned in anything close to a fair fight in our usual ships.

So when you war dec us, it's the equivalent of someone coming to you and saying... "We are at war! I get to fly whatever, and you have to fly a frigate." Don't like it? Tough, because all your usual ships? the ones you earn isk in doing missions and whatnot? Well they can't be used during the war." That would suck, wouldn't it?

So we Industrials have to be smarter. We can't form "Carebear Industrial Corps" like we would if this was World of Warcraft or something... we have to build organizations that cannot be war decced in a conventional manner. Clever use of one man corps, having a lot of our people remain in NPC corps, etc. It's a pain, and it means you can never build a large organization, but how big does an Industrial corp need to be? Here's an example: Red Frog. Good luck war deccing them. The transport vessels themselves are independents, not in "Red Frog" itself.

If you DON'T do that, and shoot bows and arrows against the lightning with the insistence that the world be made fair for you... you will quickly learn how heartless the galaxy of Eve can be. One of the things I hear a lot is how "bad" or "evil" people that prey on our unarmed ships are. No! If bears rip up your camp and eat your food, whose fault is it, the bears for wanting food, or yours for not anticipating it?" Crying to the ranger won't help you at all.
Whittorical Quandary
Amarrian Infinity
#142 - 2015-01-28 07:32:14 UTC
You can say stupid this person or that, but in the end you still wind up with just as many stupid people as before...

I don't really see HS corps doing any better over time, only worse. (200+ active wardecs and barely any corps even fight much less get many kills)
IMO there are a multitude of reasons holding people back, not sure what all they are but some possiblities:

-A multiude of corps that don't have the advanced combat skills and numbers to fight. It takes a while to gain enough skills to get into a ship that can do much any damage to highly skilled opponents.
(Going up against an enemy in nearly all Faction/Pirate/T2/T3 ships, command ships, makes combat for ppl with few skills seem pointless to engage)

-Difficuty with players transitioning from HS industry to PVP, when all skills are set for PVE/Indy it leave those players useless in most fights.

-Too many small corps that cannot field enough players at once to have the numbers needed to match a typical gatecamp.

Some of these arguments may be valid but only are speculation to me at this point.

"The trouble with quotes on the Internet is that you never know if they are genuine."

— Abraham Lincoln

Agent Unknown
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#143 - 2015-01-28 15:54:19 UTC
Whittorical Quandary wrote:
You can say stupid this person or that, but in the end you still wind up with just as many stupid people as before...

I don't really see HS corps doing any better over time, only worse. (200+ active wardecs and barely any corps even fight much less get many kills)
IMO there are a multitude of reasons holding people back, not sure what all they are but some possiblities:

-A multiude of corps that don't have the advanced combat skills and numbers to fight. It takes a while to gain enough skills to get into a ship that can do much any damage to highly skilled opponents.
(Going up against an enemy in nearly all Faction/Pirate/T2/T3 ships, command ships, makes combat for ppl with few skills seem pointless to engage)

-Difficuty with players transitioning from HS industry to PVP, when all skills are set for PVE/Indy it leave those players useless in most fights.

-Too many small corps that cannot field enough players at once to have the numbers needed to match a typical gatecamp.

Some of these arguments may be valid but only are speculation to me at this point.


It basically comes down to this: wardecs will happen and it's part of the game. In return for not giving up ISK in NPC corp taxes, you're a valid target for wars. Don't want wars? Drop to an NPC corporation. Otherwise, the corp needs to form up together and get back at them.

Believe it or not, a majority of wardecs outside of mercenary corps are by single players or small groups, so in a way it's good practice.
Badman Lasermouse
Run and Gun Mercenary Corps
#144 - 2015-01-28 17:52:51 UTC  |  Edited by: Badman Lasermouse
As the leader of a high sec War Deccing Corporation I feel like I have a valid opinion on the subject. Many of the previous posts make it sound like the war deccing corps are simply preying on every newbro corp they can find, I can assure you that this is not the case. There are no good fights to be had war deccing a group of 10 month old toons in their retreivers. It does happen, but I personally will never extend a war against a group of newbros if there was no sport in it.

I think you'll find that the majority of corps catching repeated war decs in high sec are getting them for a reason. If I see a corp with 10 Mackinaws, and Orca, and a Freighter in an ice belt every day, they are a target. If I see someone clearly multiboxing faction battleships in a level 4 mission hub, they are a target. Autopiloting freighters through all the pipes every day? You're a target too.

I think that some people disregard how much money can be, and is made in high sec on a daily basis. A typicallice mining operation with 3-4 pilots can make hundreds of millions while being practically AFK. You don't see too many faction fit battleships and auto piloting freighters in lowsec, because the low/null sec residents can't afford to be that stupid. High sec residents do it every single day.

High sec war deccers make money through ransoms and loot. Killing 20 noobs in Rifters doesn't make anyone any money, but killing 1 faction fit battleship can pay for a PLEX. If high seccers keep flying their multi-billion isk loot pinatas around high sec, then high sec wars will continue. If there is money to be made, then Eve players will try to exploit it, and there is money in high sec.

-Badman

Phig Neutron
Starbreaker and Sons
#145 - 2015-01-29 19:36:14 UTC
Thorvade wrote:
In the end PVE and PVP are necessary mechanics, both are needed to make the game run. Thats fine and needed for depth and interaction.


OP answered his own question here!

Your "playstyle" is PVE, but what does that mean? Are you roleplaying a miner in a mining simulator and all you do is mine, dock, undock, mine, dock, undock, etc? Or are you roleplaying a miner in a sci-fi universe full of pirates, warriors, traders, and all other sorts of characters? You can still be a miner. (Or mission runner, or whatever.) No one is saying you shouldn't be a miner.

But let's imagine, as a thought experiment, somebody makes a sci-fi movie about asteroid miners. If there was never any danger or drama, and the miners never needed any skill or luck, it'd be a lame movie. If you wanted people to buy tickets, you'd probably open with a scene of the miners under attack by pirates and warping away at just the last moment. Then after some character development you'd probably introduce a large-scale problem: maybe an impending war means the whole mining fleet needs to move to another part of the galaxy, and the gates are camped, so perhaps they have to sneak out via random wormhole. The main character may be the rookie miner who has to learn a new job, as fleet scout. There'd be excitement and danger and close escapes and a happy ending. But it would still be a movie about miners in space.

This is what EVE offers to people who choose the PVE playstyle. Embrace it!
Chesterfield Fancypantz
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#146 - 2015-01-29 19:43:48 UTC
Lychton Kondur wrote:
Thorvade wrote:


When you are repeatedly decced by 2 man corps, 1 man corps running multiple accounts, etc etc. This is nothing more than people who are looking for free kills against the squishiest targets they can find, and that wont shoot back.

And yes I might be a carebear in EVE, but Ive served in actual combat in real life so I dont want to hear insults etc etc.


Honestly, the best way to solidify your corp is to look at the engagement platform your enemy is using against you (via your lossmails) and developing a counter doctrine to neutralize the threat. It's good content for your members and it may get the multibox dude/dudette to back down.

Actual combat (ty for your service) doesn't translate to game mechanics. You still need to find, fix, and destroy your space enemy.


I just wanted to offer a quick little tidbit here.

We were a 30-40 man corporation that was just getting its legs off, full of noobs.

Got wardecced by a 2 man corporation flying around in cynabals etc.

I made a call to a friend of mine who brought himself and another competant pilot.

Showed up in the next pvp fleet in a rapier and we properly fielded logistics.

Wardec got dropped the very next day and he convo'd my friend and said "I didnt know these bears knew how to put up a fight".

Ended up being a good friend of mine for a while.

Dont be a bear, Put up a fight. Earn respect, dont expect it.
Leo Lennelluc
Temporarly unavailable
#147 - 2015-01-30 08:49:57 UTC  |  Edited by: Leo Lennelluc
The same thing here has happened to my Main's corp, got war dec'd by a small but experienced corp for no other reason than to be annoying, their is already players wanting to leave we dont have pvp skills, its easy enough to say get a thrasher fit out cheap and fight back but a group of unskilled industrial pilots in thrashers with very little pvp experience wouldnt stand a chance against the 4 T3's we had camping the station last night, basically the corp has gone into hibernbation we cant undock without being attacked we cant fight back to any level of effectivness, we have no friends we can ask for help so our only option is to either leave corp or not play for a week....

They wont come to an agreement they just want to destoy our corp that is their only aim (as shown by previous corps they have attacked/destoyed.... they see us a small easy target ( which to them we are) how do we fight back against skilled T2/T3 pilots when we can barely fly thrashers effectively?

Now everyone in the corp pays for their characters and thats now 1 week where we are paying for something we cannot use, we didnt ask for the war and we have to suffer because of it?

I understand eve is a PvP game but its also a sandbox, many situations we are prepared for like gankers and going into low sec we know how to do our best here but we have absolutly no chance of doing anything with 4-5 players outside the station hunting us..... also they have out of corp logi with them... what do we do against that even if we did decide to fight (lose) they just rep them up we cant hit them without concord interveening.

im sure alot of people disagree but it is a bad mechanic and unfair on small industrial corps and new players,

* sorry about the spelling.
Drez Arthie
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#148 - 2015-01-30 14:57:22 UTC
Leo Lennelluc wrote:
The same thing here has happened to my Main's corp, got war dec'd by a small but experienced corp for no other reason than to be annoying [...] how do we fight back against skilled T2/T3 pilots when we can barely fly thrashers effectively?


Be annoying back at them. Don't fight them in combat ships, where they have the advantage, especially since fighting in space is the whole point of the war for them. Counter them by making yourself difficult to hunt down and kill.

For example: create alt characters located far way from the war, join those characters to your corp and use them to open corp offices in many distant locations. Then have members scatter their clone locations among these different places. Now everyone get in shuttles, undock and fly away in different directions at once. The enemy might kill some, but can't target and destroy you all at once, especially in tiny shuttles that take longer to target and warp away quickly. Fly to your scattered offices (or get teleported there if podkilled) and start your PvE/mining there, and now the enemy has to fly 27 jumps for just one kill, then 32 jumps for another, etc.
Nameira Vanis-Tor
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#149 - 2015-01-30 17:30:06 UTC
Leo Lennelluc wrote:
The same thing here has happened to my Main's corp, got war dec'd by a small but experienced corp for no other reason than to be annoying, their is already players wanting to leave we dont have pvp skills, its easy enough to say get a thrasher fit out cheap and fight back but a group of unskilled industrial pilots in thrashers with very little pvp experience wouldnt stand a chance against the 4 T3's we had camping the station last night, basically the corp has gone into hibernbation we cant undock without being attacked we cant fight back to any level of effectivness, we have no friends we can ask for help so our only option is to either leave corp or not play for a week....

They wont come to an agreement they just want to destoy our corp that is their only aim (as shown by previous corps they have attacked/destoyed.... they see us a small easy target ( which to them we are) how do we fight back against skilled T2/T3 pilots when we can barely fly thrashers effectively?

Now everyone in the corp pays for their characters and thats now 1 week where we are paying for something we cannot use, we didnt ask for the war and we have to suffer because of it?

I understand eve is a PvP game but its also a sandbox, many situations we are prepared for like gankers and going into low sec we know how to do our best here but we have absolutly no chance of doing anything with 4-5 players outside the station hunting us..... also they have out of corp logi with them... what do we do against that even if we did decide to fight (lose) they just rep them up we cant hit them without concord interveening.

im sure alot of people disagree but it is a bad mechanic and unfair on small industrial corps and new players,

* sorry about the spelling.


If you live near a faction warfare warzone then contact an established FW corp. FW corps burn through ships at a rapid pace and may be interested in having neutral high sec Indy corps willing to build them ships and T2 mods in bulk at a discounted rate. If you get war devices and harassed let your client know and they will have a vested interest in helping out.

I guarantee that a dozen faction warfare veterans in T1 Frigate hulls will do more damage then 20 industrialists in Thrashers! I imagine it is not fun for a high sec war deccer to have 3rd parties show up in cheap ships that can kill their cynobals and are not afraid of dieing and have almost limitless reships waiting!
Marlin Spikes
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#150 - 2015-02-01 10:39:34 UTC
Is it just me or did I just venture into a counseling session for victims?

Here's a solution for the OP and all the others who complained that wars are unfair - STOP BEING A VICTIM! Do something! Hire a merc, fight back, undock in noob ships for hours, freaking something.

There is a counter to every ship that is flown. Try them out. Damps, neuts, ecm, and logi. Exploit your enemy's every weakness!

Here's my best constructive advice: if your noob corp is horribad at fighting back, recruit one experienced pvp player to help FC you during wars. An FC can make the difference between feeling sorry for yourself or killing your enemy. Heck, he/she doesn't even have to join your corp.

You are a capsuleer. A god among men. Death has no hold on you here. Act like it!

Bombers Rule!!!

Dyllan Ma'tar
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#151 - 2015-02-07 17:38:28 UTC
Here's a thought. Move your corp to lowsec, join the faction wars, and pvp until you get good. Move back to highsec after leaving faction war, and have the knowledge and skills to deal with these carebear "pirates".
Mike Adoulin
Happys Happy Hamster Hunting Club
#152 - 2015-02-08 04:12:00 UTC
Cannibal Kane wrote:
Why hello there OP.



Welcome to hell, OP.

Twisted

Everything in EVE is a trap.

And if it isn't, it's your job to make it a trap...:)

You want to know what immorality in EVE Online looks like? Look no further than Ripard "Jester" Teg.

Chribba is the Chuck Norris of EVE.

Mike Adoulin
Happys Happy Hamster Hunting Club
#153 - 2015-02-08 04:14:41 UTC
Also, OP, my 2 bits:

Just because you choose to be a victim doesn't mean the rest of us are obliged not to mess with you.

Deal with it.

AKA HTFU.

Everything in EVE is a trap.

And if it isn't, it's your job to make it a trap...:)

You want to know what immorality in EVE Online looks like? Look no further than Ripard "Jester" Teg.

Chribba is the Chuck Norris of EVE.

Tyyler DURden
Mordechai and Sons Distribution Co.
#154 - 2015-02-08 05:08:00 UTC
Mike Adoulin wrote:
Cannibal Kane wrote:
Why hello there OP.



Welcome to hell, OP.

Twisted


Man, took you over half a year to get your two bits in, doesnt look like OP went through hell either judging by the war report.
Probably just paid em off.

Tyyler DURden says "use soap"

Mike Adoulin
Happys Happy Hamster Hunting Club
#155 - 2015-02-08 09:04:49 UTC
Actually, he probably just docked up for the duration.

Everything in EVE is a trap.

And if it isn't, it's your job to make it a trap...:)

You want to know what immorality in EVE Online looks like? Look no further than Ripard "Jester" Teg.

Chribba is the Chuck Norris of EVE.