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AFK Cloaking™: Ideas, Discussion, and Proposals

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Author
Daichi Yamato
Jabbersnarks and Wonderglass
#741 - 2015-01-27 20:39:58 UTC
its seems simple to me that both need to be dealt with together, or the pendulum, as someone put it, swings too far one way or the other.

hence the all or nothing argument.

EVE FAQ "7.2 CAN I AVOID PVP COMPLETELY? No; there are no systems or locations in New Eden where PvP may be completely avoided"

Daichi Yamato's version of structure based decs

Nikk Narrel
Moonlit Bonsai
#742 - 2015-01-27 20:44:02 UTC
Please forgive the specific quoting.
Harry Saq wrote:
....

This point: Is being afk in space and immune to everything that would allow someone to detect and come within 2k of you being ever vigilant.

I like your other lens, and agree with it. "There shouldnt be a perfect intel tool that makes a mockery of covert play lens and the conversation becomes even easier." Agreed, get rid of local (also needs to be a new topic).

This is pretty simple.

You are willfully comparing items of expected difference.

A cloaked ship, off grid or far enough away to not risk accidental contact, is a non-direct threat if fully active.

In the event they DO launch probes, the launch makes them detectable, and the probes can of course also be seen.

Should they be genuinely AFK, then their play habits conform more closely to those typical of one of the following:

Logged out
Sitting behind POS shields
Docked in an Outpost.

Arguably, the docked player has the least risk. There exists no potential to harm a docked player.
Being cloaked may rate as high as second safest, depending on where they chose to be AFK at.
(Being logged out may still keep the ship present and at risk due to a timer, and a POS could have an awoxer bumping out friendly ships for malicious purposes)

Harry Saq
Of Tears and ISK
ISK.Net
#743 - 2015-01-27 21:06:28 UTC
Nikk Narrel wrote:


Arguably, the docked player has the least risk. There exists no potential to harm a docked player.
Being cloaked may rate as high as second safest, depending on where they chose to be AFK at.
(Being logged out may still keep the ship present and at risk due to a timer, and a POS could have an awoxer bumping out friendly ships for malicious purposes)



If you are going to be AFK and want to not participate or be vigilant, you should either be docked up, or logout (preferably safely). If you have an asset in space, you should be able to be hunted or interact with the game in some way as to maintain the vigilance mentioned (preferably both for max interest for all involved).

I don't think it needs to be ridiculous, nor would I necessarily want it to be (we all have RL crap that make us need to take a break), but it should be an aspect that is considered when facing the choice.

I have played this game since '03 on and off and I use cloakies for all kinds of reasons, and get their role. I also know, it is too easy for me to sit on perches, open a stream, and go to work while other players benefit from my AFK ships in space (just as an example).

Get rid of local, and encourage people to be active/vigilant when in space.
Sayod Physulem
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#744 - 2015-01-27 21:08:01 UTC  |  Edited by: Sayod Physulem
(1)
Roxanne Quall wrote:
We should only be safe in a Station period.

That's a take it or leave it manner. So if this statement is valid, this would be too:
We should be safe with cloaks.

So either we can discuss safety in a Station AND cloaks or neither.

(2)
Roxanne Quall wrote:
There is a place where there is no Local already....

Well there is a place where there are no afk cloakers already - as you said it is only in SOV space. So why don't you go somewhere? Why do the others have to go?

(3)
You want to talk if it is realistic? Well I can do that...

Imagine you are a country, you are really afraid of terrorists and immigrants in general. And so, you want them to stop coming into your country. Just think about a great superpower beeing really afraid of those high tech terrorists. Call it as you like - call it your EVE corporation if you want. So what can this country do to prevent terrorists to do bad things in their country and threatening their poor citizens? Well they can control their borders. That means controlling choke points like airports, harbours, streets (as you can control stargates)

Now this country can't differentiate if someone is a terrorist or not. So it is not only afraid about terrorists but also about illegal immigrants since they can be terrorists too and really: everyone not beeing a citizen is a terrorist in the end.
But although they build fences and walls, those pesky immigrants still leak through the border.
So basically you can infiltrate superpowers in this world if you want althoug they do their best to protect their borders.
Can you say that about yourself? Are the gates always bubbled, cyno inhibitors on and patrols swarming the gates and scanning for wormholes?

If you do so - rarely someone will slip by. But if they do - well it happens to real countrys too. Why should you be privileged about that?

So now those aliens are in. Does the whole country know about it? Well, no because they slipped by, so they (by definition) don't know anything. But you do know - because local and you dock up.
That would be like every citizen would know if an illegal immigrant was in the country. And since such a bad guy is there everyone hides in their homes barricading themselfes. Now they don't find those illegal immigrants because they hide and the country is big (btw a Solar System is even larger). And after a while they still didn't find him, the citizens slowly creep out of their houses and go back to normal life.
The terrorists wait, plan their attack, maybe help other people to come into the country by smuggling them in (CovertCyno since they work with Cyno inhibitors, which you have, don't you?).
And then they attack. When noone was expecting it! Can't they tell it everybody beforehand? How is that fair? Why do they get the right to strike first?
Why can't the terrorists be as
Roxanne Quall wrote:
proactive
as the country (of which the majority hides in their homes)?
The country hadn't even the chance to fight them! How unfair! There should be a system that this great superpower owning the land can ping for criminals! Because that's what every great country does. They ping everyday for criminals and their police gets the coordination of the criminal pointed on a map!

But since the country doesn't have this ability they should have since they are THE superpower, they have to find them by other means. So they send spys to infiltrate the organisations of the enemy to gain information. (Do you infiltrate the corporation of the cloaker?) And since that doesn't help always too, they put cameras everywhere and catch every bit of information they can get.
So if those criminals get into contact with the civilized world they get detected, so they have to be careful.

Now every cloaker has to be careful not to get too close to objects. If they get within 2000m of something they get decloaked.
But since a camera can't arrest someone - he still can ran away. (How unfair!)
And if the guy that gets decloaked gets away, well... you were simply too slow.
And don't you think it is unfair that even uncivilized things like asteroids detects them? I mean a simple rock doesn't detect criminals in the real world, does it?

Now in the future there can be more advanced technologys - but since the space you have to control becomes larger too and the stealth technologies would advance too, it would balance itself out.

So stop crying about it being not realistic. To find something, is way harder than hiding something. In real life and in EVE. You just don't get it.

And if you don't have a dedicated police - well you can be happy that EVE gives you that security that you don't need one. Every real country needs it, why wouldn't you?
Sean Parisi
Blackrise Vanguard
United Caldari Space Command.
#745 - 2015-01-27 21:17:20 UTC
Harry Saq wrote:
Nikk Narrel wrote:


Arguably, the docked player has the least risk. There exists no potential to harm a docked player.
Being cloaked may rate as high as second safest, depending on where they chose to be AFK at.
(Being logged out may still keep the ship present and at risk due to a timer, and a POS could have an awoxer bumping out friendly ships for malicious purposes)



If you are going to be AFK and want to not participate or be vigilant, you should either be docked up, or logout (preferably safely). If you have an asset in space, you should be able to be hunted or interact with the game in some way as to maintain the vigilance mentioned (preferably both for max interest for all involved).

.


Except this is counter intuitive to what was mentioned earlier. You agreed that null-bears could easily avoid cloakers should they be aligned out or paying attention to D-Scan. But then argued that they "Weren't always paying attention". Well why shouldn't miners or missioners / ratters be paying attention? It is their own fault when they get caught.

I'd love to sit in a faction plex and just gather LP without bother (But also definitely not) but the sad reality is I can run the timer to 3 seconds and get killed or pushed off if I'm not paying attention.
Nikk Narrel
Moonlit Bonsai
#746 - 2015-01-27 21:18:09 UTC
Harry Saq wrote:
Nikk Narrel wrote:


Arguably, the docked player has the least risk. There exists no potential to harm a docked player.
Being cloaked may rate as high as second safest, depending on where they chose to be AFK at.
(Being logged out may still keep the ship present and at risk due to a timer, and a POS could have an awoxer bumping out friendly ships for malicious purposes)



If you are going to be AFK and want to not participate or be vigilant, you should either be docked up, or logout (preferably safely). If you have an asset in space, you should be able to be hunted or interact with the game in some way as to maintain the vigilance mentioned (preferably both for max interest for all involved).

I don't think it needs to be ridiculous, nor would I necessarily want it to be (we all have RL crap that make us need to take a break), but it should be an aspect that is considered when facing the choice.

I have played this game since '03 on and off and I use cloakies for all kinds of reasons, and get their role. I also know, it is too easy for me to sit on perches, open a stream, and go to work while other players benefit from my AFK ships in space (just as an example).

Get rid of local, and encourage people to be active/vigilant when in space.

I believe I agree with your intent, to promote active resolutions.

It is critical to keep in mind, I believe, that by placing limits on cloaking that effectively force them to resolve their goals within a limited time, that it also be realistically possible.

Modifying local, so that player effort is involved in gathering intel, instead of simply reacting to free versions of it.

Long story short, I would like the PvE player to worry about maintaining a level of effort to be warned about cloaked threats, equal and balanced to cloaked players needing to maintain a level of effort to remain active and intact behind enemy lines.
I believe these need to be specific in relating to each other.

If a cloaked ship is intended for scouting, or as an observation post, then it should be immune to threat in the same manner as it cannot threaten with.

Perhaps if the cyno or weapon system were the real weak point of remaining hidden, allowing scouts to avoid contact in exchange for not being directly armed.

That would also give BLOPs a secondary new role, offering a means to change roles by supplying mobile depot support.
Harry Saq
Of Tears and ISK
ISK.Net
#747 - 2015-01-27 21:28:53 UTC
Sean Parisi wrote:
You agreed that null-bears could easily avoid cloakers should they be aligned out or paying attention to D-Scan. But then argued that they "Weren't always paying attention". Well why shouldn't miners or missioners / ratters be paying attention? It is their own fault when they get caught.

I'd love to sit in a faction plex and just gather LP without bother (But also definitely not) but the sad reality is I can run the timer to 3 seconds and get killed or pushed off if I'm not paying attention.


I never made any such agreement or statement, I think you have me confused with someone else.
Harry Saq
Of Tears and ISK
ISK.Net
#748 - 2015-01-27 21:55:13 UTC
Nikk Narrel wrote:
It is critical to keep in mind, I believe, that by placing limits on cloaking that effectively force them to resolve their goals within a limited time, that it also be realistically possible.

Concur completely.

Nikk Narrel wrote:
Modifying local, so that player effort is involved in gathering intel, instead of simply reacting to free versions of it.

This all day...I think there is incredible room for expansion, mechanics and unforeseen developmental dynamics that would reinvigorate alot about this game.

Nikk Narrel wrote:
Long story short, I would like the PvE player to worry about maintaining a level of effort to be warned about cloaked threats, equal and balanced to cloaked players needing to maintain a level of effort to remain active and intact behind enemy lines.
I believe these need to be specific in relating to each other.

Yes, and this is often overlooked. PvE mechanics or game designs that more or less requires you to be useless should either be designed away from or mitigated through teamwork. Not to bog this thread down, but the CSM notes had some cool possibilities here, see this... https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=5425079#post5425079

Nikk Narrel wrote:
If a cloaked ship is intended for scouting, or as an observation post, then it should be immune to threat in the same manner as it cannot threaten with.

Perhaps if the cyno or weapon system were the real weak point of remaining hidden, allowing scouts to avoid contact in exchange for not being directly armed.

That would also give BLOPs a secondary new role, offering a means to change roles by supplying mobile depot support.

Possibly, but I really do think the mere act of having the cloak either burn something (fuel or whatever, just some form of consumable, not ideal but simple) or require somekind of action (setting a scramble frequency or modulation, whatever) to maintain the cloak would atleast ensure that you are active in being sneaky. Something like that in conjunction with being able to be probed out (however inefficiently), atleast provides interaction and chance for discovery. Keeping in mind that ideally local would be gone. In fact, combine a cloak frequency with probing, and you have a reason to change frequencies but still provide a hunter to hunt (meh, maybe not).

All of this serves to enrich the game, the status quo sucks...just sayin
Brunik Rokbyter
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#749 - 2015-01-28 03:08:11 UTC
Again, this thread continues to derail into current use tactics for cloaks.

CCP gives no cares HOW you use their sandbox... thus sandbox. HOW you use current existing mechanics and if you should have to re-learn something is not even a question here.

The question here is AFK cloaking. Should an asset of a player be allowed to sit in space and be 100% safe. It doesn't matter if this is WH space, High Sec, sov space, or even faction warfare.

Do you personally believe that an asset in space should have some risk associated with its existence? If yes, WHY. If no, WHY. Not HOW, not in what way, and not for how many cookies. Yes they should be immune to all forms of interaction as a cloaked character not at the keyboard, or no, something should be done.

No one cares if you think they have no impact on the game or not. No one cares if you like afk cloaking or if you don't. No one cares. You either think that a player away from the keyboard and undocked should be at risk, or that they should be able to be 100% safe in space through the use of cloaks.

Personaly, I feel there should be SOME counter play to any asset in space that isn't NPC owned (including my idea to allow hacking ships to "trip the fire alarm" on an outpost and kick out a % of the players) Would this change how I interact with the world that is Eve Online? Yes. Would I loose ships because of this atleast once? Probably. Does it prevent me from supporting a concept that anything in space that isn't NPC driven should be at risk? Of course not.

So, please state you views on IF afk cloaking should have a way to play against it, or not. Your opinions on how it effects sov space, or doesn't, really isn't the question here. Is the core mechanic of safety in space while not at the keyboard one you support, or not.
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#750 - 2015-01-28 05:50:13 UTC
Brunik Rokbyter wrote:

Your opinions on how it effects sov space, or doesn't, really isn't the question here.



Actually it is. AFK cloaking, right now, is the only counter to intel from local. Get rid of AFK cloaking and we have nothing that can counter it.
Daichi Yamato
Jabbersnarks and Wonderglass
#751 - 2015-01-28 07:17:53 UTC  |  Edited by: Daichi Yamato
Brunik, i can see you are new to the afk cloaking debate.

Here is some light reading you should do before you tell others what this is actually about:

ISD LackOfFaith wrote:


To emphasize: this thread is on the topic of balance, changes, or feedback on the mechanic of using a cloak. Posts outside this topic will be moderated/deleted.






and

Paikis wrote:
This thread comes up on almost a weekly basis. In fact, I'd be surprised if there wasn't a nerf cloaking thread in the first 2 pages on this forum section. Almost every single one of them goes like this:

1. OP posts a post with a new (lol) idea that always boils down to some variation of the following:
- "There's a big meanie who is sitting in my system and not doing anything, but I don't know where he is and I can't ever just go next door. I can't find said meanie and even though I know that he's probably at work and poses no threat at all, I wont do anything in my system that I absolutely can't leave ever because he might not be at work and I might lose a ship. CCP please stop the meanie from being able to do nothing to me because he's probably at work"

2. Thread gets trolled because its been done literally to death. This horse has been beaten so hard and so often that it's little more than a memory of a memory of a red smear on the grass, and yet it STILL WONT DIE! In fact it's been done so many times that this particular horse is now undead; even if it does die, it will still be remembered and parodied.

3. Someone comes along and suggests that AFK cloakers can't hurt you, because they are, by their very definition, AFK. No one ever lost a ship to someone who ISN'T PLAYING THE GAME.

4. Someone else comes along and points out that while the cloaker might be AFK, he might not be, and so we have Schrodinger's Hot Dropper. The cyno pilot who might be AFK... but he might not be as well, and you will only know for sure when he decloaks, points and lights his candle. (Yes, I know this isn't how the cat works)

5. Someone else comes along and suggests that you use bait and setup a TARP. Or have a defence fleet on standby. Heaven forbid you have to actually fight to defend your space.

6. A further person comes along and suggests that the problem isn't cloaking AFK in your system that you can't possibly leave ever, but that you KNOW that the person is AFK in your system... and perhaps local should be removed because free 100% accurate intel is probably not the best thing in the game and if you didn't know that the big meanie was in your system, you wouldn't be worried about leaving the undock/POS.

7. Then another person pokes their head in and complains that local is 100% NEEDED because D-Scan and probing are such bad mechanics, and IF YOU TAKE MY LOCAL AWAY IM QUITTING FOREVER AND NO YOU CAN'T HAVE MY STUFF!

8. Someone asks if they can have 7's stuff.

We end up with another thread which goes on for pages and pages between complains about local, defence fleets, inability to just go next door, people who aren't playing the game but are playing the meta, lots of bickering and in the end nothing gets solved. CCP wont remove cloaking because it would mess with waaay too many things and it creates content (which is a good thing) by removing content (which is a bad thing) but they can't really think of any way to do it without a complete overhaul of the local and scanning systems.

Now that I've had this entire thread's conversation, can we just let it die? Please?


You may want to talk about only sitting inactive in space being safe or not. you'll enjoy that conversation alone however. Everyone else is talking about; cloaking, ratting in nullsec, sov, cynos, local and covert hunting as a package. Feel free to join OUR discussion.

EVE FAQ "7.2 CAN I AVOID PVP COMPLETELY? No; there are no systems or locations in New Eden where PvP may be completely avoided"

Daichi Yamato's version of structure based decs

Brunik Rokbyter
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#752 - 2015-01-28 12:47:56 UTC
I have read all of this, but what it boils down to is either you are satisfied with the concept of assets being 100% invulnerable while in space with no player at the helm, or you aren't. Once THAT is established, then you can discuss HOW or WHAT you want changed.

I want to discuss the core mechanic on the debate table because the true root of the issue is something EVERONE around here is dodging. You are looking at symptoms of a core issue. You are discussing burn treatments while someone is still on fire and you aren't sure if you should, fundamentally, put him out or not.

I am all for coming up with great discussions on HOW afk should or should not be changed... but first lets establish IF afk cloaking, as a core concept, is acceptable in the game or not. NOT how it is used, not how it ruined your game play, and not how you use it as a tool in its current iteration. To discuss this, you have to ignore how it is used, and focus on what it actually IS, not what it is used for.

Focus on the problem, not the symptoms of the problem. Analyze this CORRECTLY.

As it is AFK cloaking IS invulnerability while in space, with the pilot not at the keyboard, regardless of what space it happens in. My OPINION on this is that if you are undocked, active or not, you should be vulnerable. At its core, AFK cloaking is against that concept.

I am not ignoring the problem. I am taking what is a hot blooded screaming match and giving the community a way to discuss it with some level of intelligence and poise. I am also looking at the root issue, which is the reason we are all here.
Mag's
Azn Empire
#753 - 2015-01-28 13:49:22 UTC  |  Edited by: Mag's
Brunik Rokbyter wrote:
I have read all of this, but what it boils down to is either you are satisfied with the concept of assets being 100% invulnerable while in space with no player at the helm, or you aren't. Once THAT is established, then you can discuss HOW or WHAT you want changed.
It may be hard to fathom, but we are at page 38 and things have moved on. We are aware of who is and isn't OK with it. It's very often quite obvious, even when people do not come right out and specifically state it. In fact this isn't the first thread on the subject. Weird, I know.
Those here discussing at the moment, have made their stance known.

So guess what we are doing? Yea that's right, we are discussing what and how things should or should not be changed.

How amazing is that?

Destination SkillQueue:- It's like assuming the Lions will ignore you in the Savannah, if you're small, fat and look helpless.

Nikk Narrel
Moonlit Bonsai
#754 - 2015-01-28 15:00:25 UTC  |  Edited by: Nikk Narrel
Brunik Rokbyter wrote:
I have read all of this, but what it boils down to is either you are satisfied with the concept of assets being 100% invulnerable while in space with no player at the helm, or you aren't. Once THAT is established, then you can discuss HOW or WHAT you want changed.

...

I am not ignoring the problem. I am taking what is a hot blooded screaming match and giving the community a way to discuss it with some level of intelligence and poise. I am also looking at the root issue, which is the reason we are all here.

For shame, good sir.

You are using a blatant tactic to trap people into committing one way or the other, and including things that have no business being tied together under such a decision.

Cloaked ships and AFK cloaked ships, in column A, added to ships with intent to hunt and ships with intent strictly to scout or observe in column B.

You effectively have 4 possible combinations, and they do not all fit neatly under one heading.

Any limit, placed upon cloaking exclusively of any changes elsewhere, would shift the game in favor of the aspects which cloaking acts as a counter towards.

What? Cloaking COUNTERS something?
You may choose to deny it, but cloaking is a form of intel deprivation.

Local Chat, by publishing a pilot listing, effectively warns everyone about everyone else.
BUT, a name left too long, begins to gather doubt in the minds of others seeing it.
THAT DOUBT IS THE COUNTER TO LOCAL INTEL.

As an anology: When both sides see that they have an armed opponent around a corner, and the first shot likely goes to whoever does not move, neither side wants to turn that corner and be shot.
If you wait several hours, however, you may begin to expect that the other fellow has fallen asleep, or simply left to do other things.

Both sides know too much to feel safe, in taking action. That is where we are today, and while this stalemate is possibly an intended game aspect, it does frequently frustrate players on both sides.
The PvE player expects the cloaked player to have the advantage, so does not undock as the PvE player.
The Cloaked player expects the PvP player to have the advantage, cannot reship, so remains cloaked until the odds seem either even or in their favor.
Roxanne Quall
I N E X T R E M I S
Tactical Narcotics Team
#755 - 2015-01-28 15:55:25 UTC  |  Edited by: Roxanne Quall
Un-docking is putting you at risk and yeah there should be a system to find them. ( and big shocker alert: Docking in station or logging is the games way of allowing your AFK )

Big deal you know whos in local and you get all that information and benefit from it as well.

Local is the counter to Local. You get the same information presented to everyone. My advantage is the same as your so theres no need for a balance if cloaking is worked on.

Your trying to run the discussion into the ground (when you need to go make a remove local thread and put your efforts there)

No ones asking cloaking be ripped out. It just needs tweeking. You will still have the ability to gather intel and plan your PvE stomping mission.
Nikk Narrel
Moonlit Bonsai
#756 - 2015-01-28 17:27:48 UTC
Roxanne Quall wrote:
Un-docking is putting you at risk and yeah there should be a system to find them. ( and big shocker alert: Docking in station or logging is the games way of allowing your AFK )

Big deal you know whos in local and you get all that information and benefit from it as well.

Local is the counter to Local. You get the same information presented to everyone. My advantage is the same as your so theres no need for a balance if cloaking is worked on.

Your trying to run the discussion into the ground (when you need to go make a remove local thread and put your efforts there)

No ones asking cloaking be ripped out. It just needs tweeking. You will still have the ability to gather intel and plan your PvE stomping mission.

Being in the game, should be the primary reason for players finding themselves at risk.

BUT..... we have made exceptions, and these run both ways.

You CAN be out of the game, but your ship can still be destroyed if a timer keeps it present.
You'll discover your loss when you next log in, and find your circumstances have changed.

You CAN be in the game, but be completely invulnerable to all forces, under all circumstances.
While in this condition, you may make market trades, check on various communications, and observe which pilots enter and leave the system with total impunity to risk.
You may also fit and repair ships, receive purchased items from the local market and trades.
I am probably leaving items out of this list, but you get the idea.
We call this being docked in an Outpost.

Now, for those without a handy Outpost to shelter inside, you have the conditional ability to hide.
The conditions are as follows:
You may communicate remotely. This includes placing market orders, which may be claimed when you dock at the location involved.
You may operate probes if already launched, and use d-scan.
You may not activate a module while hidden. The cloak is an exclusive module to operate.
You must not come within 2,000m of any other object. This shuts down your cloak.
If the cloak should fail for any reason, be it proximity or pilot error, you are exposed and can be destroyed.
This happens routinely at gate camps.
We call this specifically limited ability, cloaking.
Rowells
Blackwater USA Inc.
Pandemic Horde
#757 - 2015-01-28 17:28:32 UTC
I'd personally like to see the topic changed to the entire intelligence and stealth system. We try to focus on any single aspect and it drives down to all or nothing on it and forgets that there are other tools available that need work.
Daichi Yamato
Jabbersnarks and Wonderglass
#758 - 2015-01-28 17:36:02 UTC  |  Edited by: Daichi Yamato
Brunik Rokbyter wrote:


I want to discuss the core mechanic on the debate table because the true root of the issue is something EVERONE around here is dodging.


Correction. You are dodging that there is much more to this than an afk person.

it really is as simple as that. Join the conversation the rest of us is having.

Roxanne Quall wrote:


No ones asking cloaking be ripped out. It just needs tweeking. You will still have the ability to gather intel and plan your PvE stomping mission.


So 'tweak' local with it. Or come up with an entirely different intel system to replace local that does 95% of what local does now.

EVE FAQ "7.2 CAN I AVOID PVP COMPLETELY? No; there are no systems or locations in New Eden where PvP may be completely avoided"

Daichi Yamato's version of structure based decs

Mag's
Azn Empire
#759 - 2015-01-28 18:09:22 UTC
Rowells wrote:
I'd personally like to see the topic changed to the entire intelligence and stealth system. We try to focus on any single aspect and it drives down to all or nothing on it and forgets that there are other tools available that need work.
I agree and that's been my point. All the mechanics including Local, cloaks, intel gathering and maybe cynos.
But some wish to cherry pick, which is not a balanced approach.

Destination SkillQueue:- It's like assuming the Lions will ignore you in the Savannah, if you're small, fat and look helpless.

Harry Saq
Of Tears and ISK
ISK.Net
#760 - 2015-01-28 19:06:47 UTC
Local is a far reaching topic that hits a ton of stuff. It needs a sticky and a discussion MODERATOR/DEV/CSM/forumgod.

We have been able to see in local since day one (unless my memory fails or there was some variant in beta that didn't have it), so the topic is unnecessarily taboo, and the effects are not an intended deliberately designed inherent intel crutch (kind of like jet canning breaking the resource scarcity and efficiency model).

Debates over whether it was actually intended as an intel tool at all (justification for removal without prejudice).

I can't imagine the code to remove it would be at all difficult.

There are specifics that need to be discussed in regards to this topic that would be better served there (would it work like alliance chat - hidden until you speak, gotten rid of entirely, anonymous, whatever). Also defining what purpose it actually serves and the required newbie user friendly social implications (quick way to connect with those near you, or shouting in the town square yada yada).

Greater implications on the meta and quality of life.

Possible sov mechanics and all the other stuff that would complicate it or need to be discussed etc (really more about intel as others have suggested).

Debates over whether CCPs new design approach is inline and bold enough to do so etc (CCP Seagull wants Eve to reflect the discovery and mystery of space etc, and have it feel big again).

All the what-if scenarios or "imagine if local had always worked like alliance chat" discussions/implications/effects.

Plenty of slow-death and terrible ideas and suggestions to go around, having only a tangential affect on cloaky mechanics and covert talk, but not mutually exclusive to each other (for example, non-cloaky scouts, fast tackle, solo pvp'ers looking for gewdfights, etc).

It would make it much easier to bounce back and forth between threads and would provide a greater degree of freedom for focusing on the mechanics and utilities of each BIG picture taboo (well, not taboo, but obviously hot topics).

I do think this thread (and the twenty billion before it) has fleshed out that local is a MAJOR catalyst, but I also think it distracts from the more simple core issues of cloaky mechanics.