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Shield Tanks vs. Armor Tanks and Gankability.

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Eliza StarBender
24th Imperial Crusade
Amarr Empire
#1 - 2015-01-26 21:20:17 UTC
In general, is there a noticeable difference in the ability to gank someone in a shield tanked fit over an armor tanked one?

I know skills and hull bonus and such will play a factor, but let's assume for the sake of argument that all things are roughly equal; Hull A vs. Hull B, both have the same number of hitpoints and equal resists for their appropriate tank. Will there be a speed difference?
Godfrey Silvarna
Arctic Light Inc.
Arctic Light
#2 - 2015-01-26 21:41:11 UTC  |  Edited by: Godfrey Silvarna
There is no practical difference for most kinds of ganks, but armor tanked ships tend to have much lower signature radiuses than shield tanked ships, so if your ship is moving and being shot at by larger weapons than its size category, the armor tanked ship is likely to take less damage. This is usually not relevant in ganks, but it does come up often in fleet fights where signature and speed tanking is extremely relevant.
Marsan
#3 - 2015-01-26 21:52:38 UTC
In theory shields are less gankable.

- Shields will regen over time.
- When fighting NPC a shield tank will still have an armor buffer, while the armor tanker's shields will already be down.

That said shield vs armor is a non issue in 99% of ganks. The experienced ganker is going to bring enough dps to blow through your shields, armor, and structure using your weakest damage type in a very short amount of time. The thing to do is make your ship require more isk to blow up than the attacker will get if they gank you. It differs from ship to ship. A drake like all Cal ships should fit for omni-resists, and buffer for their shields. Ammar ship should fit omni-resists, and buffer for their armor. An Orca on the other hand should always structure tank, and possibly shield tank as well.

Former forum cheerleader CCP, now just a grumpy small portion of the community.
Sabriz Adoudel
Move along there is nothing here
#4 - 2015-01-27 00:16:36 UTC
Ganker chiming in here.

Buffer/resist tanks are harder to gank than capacitor using tanks, except on Marauders (where the active tanks are so big that they can turn a fight when overheated). However, there's little difference between armor and shield tanks and you should always fit to your ship's strengths rather than try to force one type of tank.

Usually, however, you will be more able to survive if you have advance warning that we are coming. There's lots of ways to detect trouble before it's too late. Directional scan will save you more times than a tank ever will.

I support the New Order and CODE. alliance. www.minerbumping.com
Eliza StarBender
24th Imperial Crusade
Amarr Empire
#5 - 2015-01-27 01:16:49 UTC  |  Edited by: Eliza StarBender
Thanks for the helpful info everyone. It's much appreciated.
Chainsaw Plankton
FaDoyToy
#6 - 2015-01-27 02:17:42 UTC
Godfrey Silvarna wrote:
armor tanked ships tend to have much lower signature radiuses than shield tanked ships,


I'm not so sure that is completely accurate. If you add shield extenders and/or shield rigs it is more likely to be accurate, but imo none of those mods really make sense on a mission boat. I grabbed most of the battleship hulls I would consider runing missions with and sorted by sig radius: http://i.imgur.com/nzXPlrm.png

ah well they are all pretty much big enough I doubt you will be sig tanking a whole lot vs gankers.

I would also add note resist holes. a kin/therm tanked kronos for example is very vulnerable to explosive damage. without bastion mode it is possible to solo gank a kronos. I'm not sure how well that would go with bastion though.

@ChainsawPlankto on twitter
Nevil Oscillator
#7 - 2015-01-27 04:29:38 UTC
Eliza StarBender wrote:
In general, is there a noticeable difference in the ability to gank someone in a shield tanked fit over an armor tanked one?

I know skills and hull bonus and such will play a factor, but let's assume for the sake of argument that all things are roughly equal; Hull A vs. Hull B, both have the same number of hitpoints and equal resists for their appropriate tank. Will there be a speed difference?



Some Armour Mods/Rigs have Speed penalty, Some shield Mods/Rigs have Sig Radius penalty.

Armour tends to be naturally resistant to EM/Therm

Shields tend to be naturally resistant to Kin/Explosive

Some ships don't follow this pattern

The number of different scenarios under which a combat can take place is quite varied, which ones constitute a gank ?
Tau Cabalander
Retirement Retreat
Working Stiffs
#8 - 2015-01-27 10:59:47 UTC  |  Edited by: Tau Cabalander
Tanking:
https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=3844723#post3844723
https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=4233022#post4233022

Armor: Large HP buffer, lower resists, slow active repair (end of cycle), more capacitor efficient, low slots at the expense of damage mods.

Shield: Smaller HP buffer, higher resists, fast active repair (start of cycle), less capacitor efficient (active), predominantly mid-slots at the expense of EWAR mods.

I think the current champion of EFT-warrior tanking (excluding Caldari supercaps) is the Bustard, a shield tank Deep Space Transport, in a shield tanking enhancing w-space system [plus the usual EFT-warrior supplies: implants, boosters, officer modules, max link bonuses]. The EFT-warrior fit has no practical use, though a usable sensible T2 fit has a hisec EHP on par with a freighter.
Trey Kutoi
SergalJerk
Test Alliance Please Ignore
#9 - 2015-01-27 12:51:49 UTC
Tau Cabalander wrote:
Tanking:
https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=3844723#post3844723
https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=4233022#post4233022

Armor: Large HP buffer, lower resists, slow active repair (end of cycle), more capacitor efficient, low slots at the expense of damage mods.

Shield: Smaller HP buffer, higher resists, fast active repair (start of cycle), less capacitor efficient (active), predominantly mid-slots at the expense of EWAR mods.

I think the current champion of EFT-warrior tanking (excluding Caldari supercaps) is the Bustard, a shield tank Deep Space Transport, in a shield tanking enhancing w-space system [plus the usual EFT-warrior supplies: implants, boosters, officer modules, max link bonuses]. The EFT-warrior fit has no practical use, though a usable sensible T2 fit has a hisec EHP on par with a freighter.


I heard some crazy things about 400k EHP Amarr DST with slaves
Nevil Oscillator
#10 - 2015-01-27 13:03:04 UTC
There are several options if someone attacks you,

Fight back

Warp away

Wait for help

There might be others but in high sec help comes quite rapidly in the form of Concord so long as you were not the initial aggressor. No tank is entirely unbreakable but I think it is mostly an equation of [ is your ship worth the time and ship loses required from that number of players to destroy it ? ]
Memphis Baas
#11 - 2015-01-27 13:40:27 UTC
You're asking about "gank," which implies that the damage is so overwhelming that you won't stand a chance anyway. So, in that case, no, it doesn't make a difference.

For a close fight between your theoretical two identical ships, it will likely come down to pilot flying skills, and if that is also hypothetically equal, it may come down to the difference in side-effects (shields' increased signature radius vs. armor's slower speeds).
Nevil Oscillator
#12 - 2015-01-27 13:47:24 UTC
Memphis Baas wrote:
You're asking about "gank," which implies that the damage is so overwhelming that you won't stand a chance anyway. So, in that case, no, it doesn't make a difference.
.



In high sec you only have to survive for x number of seconds, be aware that small ganking guns are often only effective within 3 km.
Tau Cabalander
Retirement Retreat
Working Stiffs
#13 - 2015-01-27 18:16:40 UTC
Trey Kutoi wrote:
Tau Cabalander wrote:
I think the current champion of EFT-warrior tanking (excluding Caldari supercaps) is the Bustard, a shield tank Deep Space Transport, in a shield tanking enhancing w-space system [plus the usual EFT-warrior supplies: implants, boosters, officer modules, max link bonuses]. The EFT-warrior fit has no practical use, though a usable sensible T2 fit has a hisec EHP on par with a freighter.


I heard some crazy things about 400k EHP Amarr DST with slaves

The Bustard is the only ship to reach negative resists. I think that's been patched now though.
Nevil Oscillator
#14 - 2015-01-27 22:43:17 UTC
Trey Kutoi wrote:


I heard some crazy things about 400k EHP Amarr DST with slaves



Actually from what I have seen , A lot of armour mods are less effective than their Shield equivalent but it never seems that way when I am shooting one. I think one bonus of Armour is that you get shield damage as a warning of incoming fire so you don't have to react so fast to switch on your mods. If you get ambushed and your shield tank isn't activated , it can be gone before you realize. plus the point about cap, shield tanks can't usually be left on indefinitely because of the cap drain.
Ralph King-Griffin
New Eden Tech Support
#15 - 2015-01-27 23:15:27 UTC  |  Edited by: Ralph King-Griffin
Nevil Oscillator wrote:
Memphis Baas wrote:
You're asking about "gank," which implies that the damage is so overwhelming that you won't stand a chance anyway. So, in that case, no, it doesn't make a difference.
.



In high sec you only have to survive for x number of seconds, be aware that small ganking guns are often only effective within 3 km.

True for destroyers but not for vexors, brutix , tornado or talos fleets.
If you're going to be ganked, the chances are they've scanned your ship beforehand an know how much they need to bring.

Best way to avoid a gank is to be an awarebear

watch for local spikes,

dscan ,

and most effectively,

Don't put so much bling on your ship that it's the most isk/hour efficient activity in the region.

Murderers of Negotiable Motivations

=]|[=
Sabriz Adoudel
Move along there is nothing here
#16 - 2015-01-28 01:06:55 UTC
Memphis Baas wrote:
You're asking about "gank," which implies that the damage is so overwhelming that you won't stand a chance anyway. So, in that case, no, it doesn't make a difference.

For a close fight between your theoretical two identical ships, it will likely come down to pilot flying skills, and if that is also hypothetically equal, it may come down to the difference in side-effects (shields' increased signature radius vs. armor's slower speeds).



Gank has a quite different meaning in EVE.

In (say) World of Warcraft, 'ganking' is finding a player with stats so much lower than yours that they do not stand a chance against you.

In EVE, ganking means killing someone before the police arrive and neutralize your attacker. The term only makes sense in highsec or (less often) in lowsec in range of gate/station guns.

Small improvements to your ship can indeed save you - if police response time is 22 seconds (0.5 security systems it is about this), the difference between being able to withstand 20 seconds of fire, and 25 seconds is considerable.

Your best defense, however, is to be diligent *before* you are attacked. A tank is a last resort.

I support the New Order and CODE. alliance. www.minerbumping.com
Nevil Oscillator
#17 - 2015-01-28 01:15:56 UTC
Ralph King-Griffin wrote:


watch for local spikes,

dscan ,

and most effectively,

Don't put so much bling on your ship that it's the most isk/hour efficient activity in the region.



I will take your word for it that cruiser ganking is possible , double the DPS for 4 times the price possibly

They seem to me a bit slow for that kind of interception game.

I think you just get a buzz out of giving care bears a nervous disposition.. lol
Godfrey Silvarna
Arctic Light Inc.
Arctic Light
#18 - 2015-01-28 01:21:33 UTC  |  Edited by: Godfrey Silvarna
Sabriz Adoudel wrote:
Gank has a quite different meaning in EVE.

In (say) World of Warcraft, 'ganking' is finding a player with stats so much lower than yours that they do not stand a chance against you.

In EVE, ganking means killing someone before the police arrive and neutralize your attacker. The term only makes sense in highsec or (less often) in lowsec in range of gate/station guns.

Small improvements to your ship can indeed save you - if police response time is 22 seconds (0.5 security systems it is about this), the difference between being able to withstand 20 seconds of fire, and 25 seconds is considerable.

Your best defense, however, is to be diligent *before* you are attacked. A tank is a last resort.

The word gank as a noun is also used for sufficiently gangrapey one-sided fights outside of highsec. For example, when I find someone doing PvE in a wormhole and bring a 5 man gang to violate him, I call it a gank. Going up the food chain, when No Holes Barred sees my 5 man gang ganking the PvE Tengu, their 20 man fleet has an opportunity to come and gank my fleet in turn.

Hells, just about all real fights in eve can be described as ganks, since if the fight is not one-sided, your scouts have not done their job properly and you should probably give them a good whipping so the next fight will be a gank in your favour. Fair fights are sure signs of failed intel or pointless come-fight-us-at-the-sun ''fights''.

Not all ganks are suicide ganks.
Nevil Oscillator
#19 - 2015-01-28 01:26:07 UTC  |  Edited by: Nevil Oscillator
Sabriz Adoudel wrote:



In EVE, ganking means killing someone before the police arrive and neutralize your attacker. The term only makes sense in highsec or (less often) in lowsec in range of gate/station guns.

.


I think different groups use the term ganked in different ways, as a figure of speech you might say "I got ganked" meaning a load of ships kicked your ass but in reality you were in low sec and you would have done the same to them if your crew had arrived on time.


Ganked = Shafted

Some people literally got shafted
Ralph King-Griffin
New Eden Tech Support
#20 - 2015-01-28 01:46:59 UTC
Nevil Oscillator wrote:
Ralph King-Griffin wrote:


watch for local spikes,

dscan ,

and most effectively,

Don't put so much bling on your ship that it's the most isk/hour efficient activity in the region.



I will take your word for it that cruiser ganking is possible , double the DPS for 4 times the price possibly

They seem to me a bit slow for that kind of interception game.

I think you just get a buzz out of giving care bears a nervous disposition.. lol

If it's cost effective, anything will be used, you can be held in place by bumping till the squad arives
here's something my CEO wrote a while ago on someone using a talos fleet
http://evedarklord.blogspot.ca/2014/01/unauthorized-player-profile-aedric.html?view=sidebar

Murderers of Negotiable Motivations

=]|[=
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