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Dev blog: The Svipul Tactical Destroyer andProjectile Changes

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DR BiCarbonate
Doomriders.
Ragequit Cancel Sub
#221 - 2015-01-25 20:53:48 UTC
Replace Optimal for falloff bonus. as long as it has optimal it's not worth flying. Terrible.
Komodo Askold
Strategic Exploration and Development Corp
Silent Company
#222 - 2015-01-25 21:07:41 UTC
TrouserDeagle wrote:
Komodo Askold wrote:
About the range bonus, I'll say again that while having a falloff bonus would be nice for autocannon fits, it really isn't for artilleries. Artys fire slowly, so they need to make every shot count. The Svipul has damage appliaction bonuses that help them towards it, but a fallof bonus wouldn't that much, because on falloff shots become less precise and thus deal less damage. It doesn't matter that much to autocannons because of their high rate of fire and because they already have big fallof values, but it's an important issue for artilleries: you shoot so slowly you need to make sure every shot lands properly, so you can really benefit of their alpha.

So for those who say replace the optimal range bonus with a falloff bonus, I've got a better alternative: have BOTH bonuses. Perhaps with less numeric values, but have both. That way both weapon choices are properly bonused. Also, T3 are supposed to be about versatility: for me that also means being able to fit both turret variants too.

Also, I still think artilleries could use some less powergrid usage, just a pinch less. Or, give Minmatar ships more powergrid. It really doesn't make sense having to sacrifice lowslots or rig slots for being able to fit their prefered long-range weapon even with high fitting skills such as Advanced Weapon Upgrades 4.


your reasoning is completely wonky and wrong, but having generic optimal and falloff bonuses is the best solution for minmatar and gallente ships. I don't even see any need to have them be less than the full 10% per level to both stats.
I'd like to know why do you say my reasoning is wrong. Although I admit I wrote it in a hurry before having to leave.

What I was trying to say (and I think I didn't explain right) is that too much people is saying "optimal bonus is not good for autocannons, thus scrap it, I want my autocannons and everyone who wants artilleries can go cry in a corner" without actually giving good reasons for it.

I'd also like to point out that the Thrasher only has an optimal range bonus, yet it works nicely both with AC's and artilleries. But having a 10% increase on both stats would be welcome too, for the sake of T3 versatility.
TrouserDeagle
Beyond Divinity Inc
Shadow Cartel
#223 - 2015-01-25 21:19:38 UTC
Komodo Askold wrote:

I'd like to know why do you say my reasoning is wrong. Although I admit I wrote it in a hurry before having to leave.

What I was trying to say (and I think I didn't explain right) is that too much people is saying "optimal bonus is not good for autocannons, thus scrap it, I want my autocannons and everyone who wants artilleries can go cry in a corner" without actually giving good reasons for it.

I'd also like to point out that the Thrasher only has an optimal range bonus, yet it works nicely both with AC's and artilleries. But having a 10% increase on both stats would be welcome too, for the sake of T3 versatility.


because all that stuff about artilleries needing more optimal because they shoot slower or something and how missing is a bigger deal or something, that's all wrong. an optimal bonus is just as good as a falloff bonus on artillery if you're using short ammo. having your damage output be more or less granular doesn't mean you need to be in optimal. it's not like using artillery in falloff means you're just going to straight up miss all the time. if your svipul is at optimal + falloff, it will do half its paper dps. exactly the same as if a railgun or laser ship is at optimal + falloff. if you extend your optimal by 50% or your falloff by 50%, it's still the same.

thrasher works acceptably with autocannons because its wasted optimal bonus is offset by its strong damage bonus. it's not exactly good though.
Zarnak Wulf
Task Force 641
Empyrean Edict
#224 - 2015-01-25 23:07:49 UTC
TrouserDeagle wrote:
so are we still going with this awful optimal bonus instea of falloff?


I optimistically interpret the silence as new ideas being put in front of the CSM.
TrouserDeagle
Beyond Divinity Inc
Shadow Cartel
#225 - 2015-01-25 23:20:14 UTC
Zarnak Wulf wrote:
TrouserDeagle wrote:
so are we still going with this awful optimal bonus instea of falloff?


I optimistically interpret the silence as new ideas being put in front of the CSM.


everything is balanced except for tengus
Acel Tokalov
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#226 - 2015-01-26 04:11:11 UTC
http://i.imgur.com/c7NJRa2.gif With regards to the debate between optimal and falloff on Minmatar ships.
Komodo Askold
Strategic Exploration and Development Corp
Silent Company
#227 - 2015-01-26 09:49:35 UTC
TrouserDeagle wrote:
because all that stuff about artilleries needing more optimal because they shoot slower or something and how missing is a bigger deal or something, that's all wrong. an optimal bonus is just as good as a falloff bonus on artillery if you're using short ammo. having your damage output be more or less granular doesn't mean you need to be in optimal. it's not like using artillery in falloff means you're just going to straight up miss all the time. if your svipul is at optimal + falloff, it will do half its paper dps. exactly the same as if a railgun or laser ship is at optimal + falloff. if you extend your optimal by 50% or your falloff by 50%, it's still the same.

thrasher works acceptably with autocannons because its wasted optimal bonus is offset by its strong damage bonus. it's not exactly good though.
Maybe you're right. Although it's preferable to shoot on optimal with any kind of turret (if realistically possible) because the hits deal more damage than in falloff.

Well, these ships have:

- Thrasher: 7 turrets, +5% damage per skill level (+28% at level 5; 8.93 effective turrets), +50% optimal (role bonus)
- Svipul: 6 turrets, +10% damage per skill level (+61% at level 5; 9.66 effective turrets), +10% optimal per skill level (+61% at level 5)

Seems like without the modes, the Svipul could be even better than the Thrasher at fitting both autocannons and artilleries. I think that's the reason why the Svipul has such bonuses... for now. Having both optimal and falloff bonuses would help anyway.
TrouserDeagle
Beyond Divinity Inc
Shadow Cartel
#228 - 2015-01-26 16:14:33 UTC
Komodo Askold wrote:
+28% at level 5
+61% at level 5
+61% at level 5


you what m8. it's not like *1.05 per level, it just replaces the *1.2 with a *1.25, for example.
Solhild
Doomheim
#229 - 2015-01-26 20:09:06 UTC  |  Edited by: Solhild
Just been looking at the model in SISI. I can see what look to be additional thrusters underneath the forward fuselage which will operate when in sniper and defensive mode. Strange that the speed mode is when some of the thrusters aren't contributing?

I can't get my head around the turret positioning. Surely the forward turrets would need to be underneath the ship???

EDIT
..so I've looked again and can see seven hard points below and what appear to be 13 (14) hard points above - how does that work?

2nd EDIT
..I really like the design by the way - can't wait to fly the finished product. Have decided to train this character to be dedicated to that ship rather than sit in stations or cyno. Wait for my inevitable numerous death mails Lol
Komodo Askold
Strategic Exploration and Development Corp
Silent Company
#230 - 2015-01-26 21:21:18 UTC
TrouserDeagle wrote:
Komodo Askold wrote:
+28% at level 5
+61% at level 5
+61% at level 5


you what m8. it's not like *1.05 per level, it just replaces the *1.2 with a *1.25, for example.


What does "you what m8" mean please? English is not my mother tongue.

Are you sure about that? 5% increase means *1.05 no matter where you look, even outside EVE.
Rowells
Blackwater USA Inc.
Pandemic Horde
#231 - 2015-01-26 22:01:31 UTC
Komodo Askold wrote:
TrouserDeagle wrote:
Komodo Askold wrote:
+28% at level 5
+61% at level 5
+61% at level 5


you what m8. it's not like *1.05 per level, it just replaces the *1.2 with a *1.25, for example.


What does "you what m8" mean please? English is not my mother tongue.

Are you sure about that? 5% increase means *1.05 no matter where you look, even outside EVE.

Your math is off. It might be right if you looking at rate of fire and overall DPS, but with just damage it should be straight applied bonus.
Komodo Askold
Strategic Exploration and Development Corp
Silent Company
#232 - 2015-01-26 22:34:51 UTC
Rowells wrote:
Komodo Askold wrote:
TrouserDeagle wrote:
Komodo Askold wrote:
+28% at level 5
+61% at level 5
+61% at level 5


you what m8. it's not like *1.05 per level, it just replaces the *1.2 with a *1.25, for example.


What does "you what m8" mean please? English is not my mother tongue.

Are you sure about that? 5% increase means *1.05 no matter where you look, even outside EVE.

Your math is off. It might be right if you looking at rate of fire and overall DPS, but with just damage it should be straight applied bonus.
Please enlighten me. I only applied the damage bonus by using the *1.05 formula, but I'm beggining to doubt this is the way EVE applies bonuses. And if that's the case, then I'm outright confused about why it isn't applied that way.

Still the Svipul has double the damage and optimal bonuses the Thrasher has, with 1 less turret. Sounds pretty good to me.
Rowells
Blackwater USA Inc.
Pandemic Horde
#233 - 2015-01-27 00:25:57 UTC  |  Edited by: Rowells
Komodo Askold wrote:
Rowells wrote:
Komodo Askold wrote:
TrouserDeagle wrote:
Komodo Askold wrote:
+28% at level 5
+61% at level 5
+61% at level 5


you what m8. it's not like *1.05 per level, it just replaces the *1.2 with a *1.25, for example.


What does "you what m8" mean please? English is not my mother tongue.

Are you sure about that? 5% increase means *1.05 no matter where you look, even outside EVE.

Your math is off. It might be right if you looking at rate of fire and overall DPS, but with just damage it should be straight applied bonus.
Please enlighten me. I only applied the damage bonus by using the *1.05 formula, but I'm beggining to doubt this is the way EVE applies bonuses. And if that's the case, then I'm outright confused about why it isn't applied that way.

Still the Svipul has double the damage and optimal bonuses the Thrasher has, with 1 less turret. Sounds pretty good to me.

I'm not an expert on the math, but I know the rule of thumb is (to calculate DPS or volley damage):

Bonuses to damage (such as 5% per level) are applied simply by multiplying th sum of the skill, 25% at lvl V. Net increase is 25% for a total of 125% DPS of original or base damage and volley damage.

Rate of fire bones work differently, as they scale exponentially, rather than linearly. So a 5% per lvl bonus (25% total) would change the DPS slightly more than just damage. I think your math calculated that value. 28% seems about accurate if I recall correctly. It does not affect volley damage.

At least that's what I think the difference was.
Zarnak Wulf
Task Force 641
Empyrean Edict
#234 - 2015-01-27 01:34:44 UTC
Thrasher and Sabre have 8.75 effective turrets. Svipul has 9.
Lidor Alaran
Ophiuchus Inc.
#235 - 2015-01-27 08:01:11 UTC
Greetings capsulers!

Thanks for sharing render of new matar T3 destroyer, Mr. CCP Fozzie. Looks nice, really. The only weird thing for me are 6 boxes (3 and 3) attached via small branches to main hull especially in vertical modes (sorry...)

I will not be very original saying that Svipul bonuses are not as good as matari are waiting =)

1. In Tactical destroyer bonuses: 10% to falloff will be awesome (you know we are falloff guys)
2. Optimal bonus for sharpshooter mode - nobody will go sniping with ACs - I am more than sure =) ONLY ARTY

But I support idea about MWD signature radius reduction in defensive mode - quite fine, not the best possible of course =)

With current bonuses Svipul is definitely arty oriented ship - but how about our ACs (question of "our poor ACs" deserves another discussion) ?

Will be nice to have possibility to utilize all potential minmatar tribes are famous for =)

Best regards,
L.A.
Nevyn Auscent
Broke Sauce
#236 - 2015-01-27 10:41:03 UTC
Rowells wrote:

I'm not an expert on the math, but I know the rule of thumb is (to calculate DPS or volley damage):

Bonuses to damage (such as 5% per level) are applied simply by multiplying th sum of the skill, 25% at lvl V. Net increase is 25% for a total of 125% DPS of original or base damage and volley damage.

Rate of fire bones work differently, as they scale exponentially, rather than linearly. So a 5% per lvl bonus (25% total) would change the DPS slightly more than just damage. I think your math calculated that value. 28% seems about accurate if I recall correctly. It does not affect volley damage.

At least that's what I think the difference was.

ROF bonuses do not scale exponentially.
All bonuses in EVE work in the same way. Take the percentage per level, multiply by levels, then apply that bonus as a multiplier.
So 2 skills which both reduce ROF are multiplicative but each single skill which reduces ROF is additive within the skill per level.

Where you are getting confused on is how ROF actually affects DPS.
A 25% Bonus in ROF means you shoot 4 times in the same time you used to shoot 3 times.
As DPS = Volley/Time.
So your 25% bonus on ROF turns that equation into DPS = Volley/(Time*0.75)
Which can be simplified to Old DPS/0.75 = New DPS (When talking about a 25% bonus to ROF obviously)

This has the result of increasing DPS by 1/3rd (33.3%), but the ROF bonus is still exactly 25% if the skill is 5% per level.
Komodo Askold
Strategic Exploration and Development Corp
Silent Company
#237 - 2015-01-27 13:07:00 UTC
Nevyn Auscent wrote:
Rowells wrote:

I'm not an expert on the math, but I know the rule of thumb is (to calculate DPS or volley damage):

Bonuses to damage (such as 5% per level) are applied simply by multiplying th sum of the skill, 25% at lvl V. Net increase is 25% for a total of 125% DPS of original or base damage and volley damage.

Rate of fire bones work differently, as they scale exponentially, rather than linearly. So a 5% per lvl bonus (25% total) would change the DPS slightly more than just damage. I think your math calculated that value. 28% seems about accurate if I recall correctly. It does not affect volley damage.

At least that's what I think the difference was.

ROF bonuses do not scale exponentially.
All bonuses in EVE work in the same way. Take the percentage per level, multiply by levels, then apply that bonus as a multiplier.
So 2 skills which both reduce ROF are multiplicative but each single skill which reduces ROF is additive within the skill per level.

Where you are getting confused on is how ROF actually affects DPS.
A 25% Bonus in ROF means you shoot 4 times in the same time you used to shoot 3 times.
As DPS = Volley/Time.
So your 25% bonus on ROF turns that equation into DPS = Volley/(Time*0.75)
Which can be simplified to Old DPS/0.75 = New DPS (When talking about a 25% bonus to ROF obviously)

This has the result of increasing DPS by 1/3rd (33.3%), but the ROF bonus is still exactly 25% if the skill is 5% per level.
Thank you, both of you. Now I see I've been calculating my bonuses wrong for 5 years =D

I guess all bonuses work that way? For example, what about mining yield ones?

(I know this is getting too far away from the point of the topic, I'm sorry)

I'd like to see more updates from the devs regarding the bonuses. Mainly the whole "optimal or falloff" thing. I'd like to see an update or communicate before the F&I official topic.
Tremere Simalia
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#238 - 2015-01-28 13:29:52 UTC
Can anyone tell me what skills are needed to make Svipul? Is it the same as with confessor? Also, what about building mats?
Stitch Kaneland
The Tuskers
The Tuskers Co.
#239 - 2015-01-28 18:31:57 UTC
CCP Fozzie wrote:
Hey everyone, thanks for the feedback so far. Just wanted to let you know that I'm going to be catching up on this thread as soon as the CSM summit is over (after tomorrow) and I'll start responding to specific themes in the feedback then.

I'm not sure when we'll have a testable version on SISI for you all, but it should be pretty soon (probably with placeholder art to begin with).


Any updates or opinions on what has been discussed so far?

Give Battlecruisers range to fullfil their Anti-Cruiser role - OP SUCCESS

Make the Muninn great again!
Iam Widdershins
Project Nemesis
#240 - 2015-01-29 07:05:00 UTC
All these explanations of how ROF is applied by skills and how it affects DPS are terrible.

It's simple. Essentially all skill bonuses in EVE are applied like so: first you take the per level amount, then you multiply it by the level, then you ADD that to the base 100%.

A 5% rate of fire bonus is a -5% per level modifier, because the Rate of Fire attribute is the amount of time between shots; at level 3, that means you add -15% (negative fifteen percent) to the base 100% firing cooldown, resulting in 85% base time between firing. This means that your DPS will be (1 / 0.85 =) ~1.176 higher because of that bonus.

Likewise with a 5% damage & 5% rate of fire bonused ship, level 4 gives you 120% damage and 80% rate of fire, which comes out to 1.2 / 0.8 = 1.5x effective DPS multipler; level 5 gives you 125% damage and 75% rate of fire, which is clearly 1.25 / 0.75 = ~1.667x DPS multiplier.

The way the math works means that for stats which benefit from reduction (like capacitor recharge time and rate of fire), more levels and bigger bonuses reap ever increasing performance per level, while additive bonuses (like armor HP and damage) diminish as you add more. The Naglfar was absurdly powerful when it had 7.5% damage and 7.5% rate of fire per level, because at level 5 that meant it had a 1.375 damage multiplier and a 0.625 rate of fire multiplier... which came out to a total DPS multiplier of 2.2x, a 120% overall DPS bonus.

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