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Putting the screwes to highsec gankers

First post
Author
Black Pedro
Mine.
#41 - 2015-01-26 16:54:29 UTC  |  Edited by: Black Pedro
Rivr Luzade wrote:
More money in Low sec won't achieve that, because it would have already done so.

Of course it will. As said above PI and exploration have done a good job at drawing planet farmers and explorers away from highsec. The only reason it doesn't work for missioning and mining is that the slight increase in income is not worth the increase in risk as you say, so people rationally choose to stay in highsec to do those activities. If you increased lowsec mission rewards or mining yield say 10-fold, you would see a significant number of players chasing that money (not that I think that is necessarily a good idea, but just as an example).

Rivr Luzade wrote:
And even if for some wondrous reason a considerable number of people moved to Low sec and gained more rewards than in High sec, their rewards would dwindle and diminish as more people make more money, LP, $insert_reward$. In the end, they again don't make more in Low sec than they do today in High sec, but need to put more effort into as more people in Low sec means more risk while still having reduce reward. How do you tackle that problem? What you create is a serpent that eats its own tail and wonders why it feels pain...

Why would that be? Just like PI, you would get the same rewards as highsec (ISK, LPs), just more of them in lowsec so any decrease in value due to overfarming would be felt in both places.

Rivr Luzade wrote:
Oh, and by the way, if you wonder what that has to do with higher security and more punishment for gankers (to put this back into the picture of the OP's topic): Gankers take content out of Low sec by being active in High sec and lure people from Low sec into High sec. They reduce the population of Low sec by being as active as they are. There is nothing speaking against ganking, but this level of organization and enticement to bring more people into the ganking business instead of real PVP and activity in Low sec is a considerable contributing factor why Low sec is as inactive as it is. Casual, fun time ganking is all nice and dandy, but if you start bringing people out of Low sec just for that reason or make people from High sec go gank and stop them from going beyond that stage, it is only going to make matters worse. As said in another thread with a similar topic: Why would someone who finds enough content and PVP in High sec, where no one shoots back and hurts your activity, go to Low sec where these rules do not apply and where you as a PVPer are at risk of losing your ship without getting a kill? In my opinion, ganking should be a short-term, one-time activity that is fun for a moment, but has severe discouraging consequences in order to force people who want to go PVP into Low sec and Null sec and live there. Just as PVErs should not have access to easy, protected content, PVPers should neither. And this recent focus on making ganking easier or more widespread is just that.
Gankers (also known as pirates or criminals) follow the prey and the current game mechanics keep, and even draw back people to highsec. Your theory is a little bizarre, and I can't say I follow all the logic, but ganking is PvP, some have argued the most elite form of PvP of all since you have to deal with severally punishing mechanics as an outlaw and NPCs that chase you and automatically destroy your ship, in addition to the actions of your target. I don't see how you think PvPers have easy, protected content under these conditions in highsec where with only a little effort a target can be nearly 100% safe to any ganker.

New Eden is a dangerous place. If you don't take the time to protect your stuff, someone is going to try to take it whether that be in lowsec or in highsec.
Mag's
Azn Empire
#42 - 2015-01-26 17:21:19 UTC  |  Edited by: Mag's
Misha Tokila wrote:
NOTE: I'm not saying we should get rid of suicide ganking, just make the penalties more severe. So those individuals who want to participate in that type of gameplay can still do so, but their will now be more stiff penalties they will have to deal with.
Oh of course you will say you don't want to get rid of ganking. Almost every post asking for 'Just one more nerf and it will be balanced.' says the same thing. Poppycock.

The thing is gankers already do deal with the consequences. Just because they do and accept them, isn't justification for more.

If you want stiffer penalties, then hand them out yourself. CCP want ganking in high sec and they have issued us with the penalties for that crime. They also want YOU to do some work in that regard. Whether it be tanking or attacking those who may be outlaws already.

You are not interested in balance one jot. You have no intention of using the current tools, CCP have made available right now. So here you are asking for hand holding ones instead. Why? Well :EFFORT:

So take your 'I don't want it to stop, but just one more nerf please.' sentiment and stick it where the sun doesn't shine, in a system near you.

Destination SkillQueue:- It's like assuming the Lions will ignore you in the Savannah, if you're small, fat and look helpless.

Rivr Luzade
Coreli Corporation
Pandemic Legion
#43 - 2015-01-26 17:45:44 UTC  |  Edited by: Rivr Luzade
Black Pedro wrote:
Gankers (also known as pirates or criminals) follow the prey and the current game mechanics keep, and even draw back people to highsec. Your theory is a little bizarre, and I can't say I follow all the logic, but ganking is PvP, some have argue the most elite form of PvP of all since you have to deal with severally punishing mechanics as an outlaw and NPCs that chase you and automatically destroy your ship, in addition to the actions of your target. I don't see how you think PvPers have easy, protected content under these conditions in highsec where with only a little effort a target can be nearly 100% safe to any ganker.

New Eden is a dangerous place. If you don't take the time to protect your stuff, someone is going to try to take it whether that be in lowsec or in highsec.


For starters, you just sit in station and wait until your bumper has bumped a target, then you fly to that target, kill it, lose your cheap ship and go back to the station, wait out your timer and rinse and repeat. Or you sit on a gate doing nothing but sitting there and scanning passing by ships and shoot at a suitable target, lose your cheap ship and go back to a station, wait out your timer and rinse and repeat. I don't see any NPC following you into station and destroying your other ships there, you lose nothing but your initial, insignificantly cheap ship. You also only look for targets that don't shoot back, freighters do not, nor do haulers and if someone decides to oppose you, you just sit in station and do nothing or gank anyways and the above happens. I do not see where that is, on the one hand, "most elite form of PVP" nor do I see where this is not protected and easy-mode PVP. Correct me if I am wrong.

There are, and that is something I truly venerate, some ganks where people put in days, weeks of time and effort into finding out peoples lifes and habits to find the perfect situation to gank this 10 billion Golem or a similar ship. These are ganks that can righteously be called "most elite form of PVP", the rest is just kindergarten level fights for the weak.

UI Improvement Collective

My ridicule, heavy criticism and general pale outlook about your or CCP's ideas is nothing but an encouragement to prove me wrong. Give it a try.

Arya Regnar
Darwins Right Hand
#44 - 2015-01-26 18:16:01 UTC
Yes, we need to nerf gankers more. And awoxing, and ninja salvaging, and everything else that isn't pve Sad

EvE-Mail me if you need anything.

Lugh Crow-Slave
#45 - 2015-01-26 18:37:20 UTC
Arya Regnar wrote:
Yes, we need to nerf gankers more. And awoxing, and ninja salvaging, and everything else that isn't pve Sad


and remember even PvE is PvP so we need to get rid of all LP bounties loot drops and anything else you could use to compete with other players.


or better yet start seeding the market so that you can always get what you want at a fair price
Futt Isimazu
State War Academy
Caldari State
#46 - 2015-01-26 18:46:15 UTC  |  Edited by: Futt Isimazu
Rivr Luzade wrote:

Oh, and by the way, if you wonder what that has to do with higher security and more punishment for gankers (to put this back into the picture of the OP's topic): Gankers take content out of Low sec by being active in High sec and lure people from Low sec into High sec. They reduce the population of Low sec by being as active as they are. There is nothing speaking against ganking, but this level of organization and enticement to bring more people into the ganking business instead of real PVP and activity in Low sec is a considerable contributing factor why Low sec is as inactive as it is. Casual, fun time ganking is all nice and dandy, but if you start bringing people out of Low sec just for that reason or make people from High sec go gank and stop them from going beyond that stage, it is only going to make matters worse.

As said in another thread with a similar topic: Why would someone who finds enough content and PVP in High sec, where no one shoots back and hurts your activity, go to Low sec where these rules do not apply and where you as a PVPer are at risk of losing your ship without getting a kill? In my opinion, ganking should be a short-term, one-time activity that is fun for a moment, but has severe discouraging consequences in order to force people who want to go PVP into Low sec and Null sec and live there. Just as PVErs should not have access to easy, protected content, PVPers should neither. And this recent focus on making ganking easier or more widespread is just that.



Absolute Gold.
Black Pedro
Mine.
#47 - 2015-01-26 19:40:24 UTC
Rivr Luzade wrote:
For starters, you just sit in station and wait until your bumper has bumped a target, then you fly to that target, kill it, lose your cheap ship and go back to the station, wait out your timer and rinse and repeat. Or you sit on a gate doing nothing but sitting there and scanning passing by ships and shoot at a suitable target, lose your cheap ship and go back to a station, wait out your timer and rinse and repeat. I don't see any NPC following you into station and destroying your other ships there, you lose nothing but your initial, insignificantly cheap ship. You also only look for targets that don't shoot back, freighters do not, nor do haulers and if someone decides to oppose you, you just sit in station and do nothing or gank anyways and the above happens. I do not see where that is, on the one hand, "most elite form of PVP" nor do I see where this is not protected and easy-mode PVP. Correct me if I am wrong.


Oh you are wrong. Only the highsec outlaw ganker is thrown into a space so hostile, that if it were in any other space in Eve the player base would claim it impossible to play the game. First, your brave bumper has to find a target that is worth the time of the group and manage to keep it in place until the gank team assembles, the whole time risking his undertanked pirate battleship to other gankers looking for easy kills. Meanwhile the FC has to undock the fleet, and navigate to the target, dodging the swarms of white knights hunting the gank squad, who have the legal right to shoot while under the full protection of CONCORD. Even if our fearless FC manages to avoid the white knights, the Faction Police are hot on his tail as only tireless NPCs can be, and will overwhelm the fleet and destroy it if he lingers just a second too long between his warps. Finally, he has to drop the fleet onto the target within a few thousand meters without giving away the target in advance so the anti-gankers can't get some ECM on the field and disrupt the gank. Even if he manages this successfully and destroys the target, the looters have to arrive and get the prize before the other vultures do otherwise all these efforts are for naught.

This is elite PvP at its finest and is why a gank FC like loyalanon is quite correctly ranked the #1 PvPer in all the game.
Sean Parisi
Blackrise Vanguard
United Caldari Space Command.
#48 - 2015-01-26 20:21:18 UTC
Its high security space not "Safe Hug Box Space". Bad things happen sometimes.

Occasionally a guy loses it and smart bombs off of Jita Undock - other times a guy feels the need to drive a Nyx into a station or crash a Titan into a planet. I get it - you want to play safely on your own in an MMO. But not everything accommodates you.

Take the same precautions the rest of us operating in highsec have to. Otherwise: Consequences.
Vic Jefferson
Stimulus
Rote Kapelle
#49 - 2015-01-26 20:25:57 UTC
Black Pedro wrote:
[quote=Rivr Luzade]

This is elite PvP at its finest and is why a gank FC like loyalanon is quite correctly ranked the #1 PvPer in all the game.


Okay. I'll take this bait.

Interesting how the #1 ranked player would choose to run from the alliance tournament like a scared child, rather than revel in the chance to display his piloting and FC skills and those of his alliance members.

Vote Vic Jefferson for CSM X.....XI.....XII?

Corraidhin Farsaidh
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#50 - 2015-01-26 20:28:27 UTC
Black Pedro wrote:


Oh you are wrong. Only the highsec outlaw ganker is thrown into a space so hostile, that if it were in any other space in Eve the player base would claim it impossible to play the game. First, your brave bumper has to find a target that is worth the time of the group and manage to keep it in place until the gank team assembles, the whole time risking his undertanked pirate battleship to other gankers looking for easy kills. Meanwhile the FC has to undock the fleet, and navigate to the target, dodging the swarms of white knights hunting the gank squad, who have the legal right to shoot while under the full protection of CONCORD. Even if our fearless FC manages to avoid the white knights, the Faction Police are hot on his tail as only tireless NPCs can be, and will overwhelm the fleet and destroy it if he lingers just a second too long between his warps. Finally, he has to drop the fleet onto the target within a few thousand meters without giving away the target in advance so the anti-gankers can't get some ECM on the field and disrupt the gank. Even if he manages this successfully and destroys the target, the looters have to arrive and get the prize before the other vultures do otherwise all these efforts are for naught.

This is elite PvP at its finest and is why a gank FC like loyalanon is quite correctly ranked the #1 PvPer in all the game.


What a steaming pile of rose fertilizer!
Black Pedro
Mine.
#51 - 2015-01-26 21:30:42 UTC
Vic Jefferson wrote:
Black Pedro wrote:
[quote=Rivr Luzade]

This is elite PvP at its finest and is why a gank FC like loyalanon is quite correctly ranked the #1 PvPer in all the game.


Okay. I'll take this bait.

Interesting how the #1 ranked player would choose to run from the alliance tournament like a scared child, rather than revel in the chance to display his piloting and FC skills and those of his alliance members.


I don't know, you will have to ask her, but I imagine she had some actual PvP to engage in rather than a participate in some meaningless playground sparring like the Alliance Tournament. Real PvP, that is elite PVP does not take place at a scheduled time and place in a pre-arranged contest that has no actual impact on New Eden.

Does anyone even remember who won that tournament? All I remember is everyone talking only about CODE. and that the history that was made.
Vic Jefferson
Stimulus
Rote Kapelle
#52 - 2015-01-26 23:20:00 UTC
Black Pedro wrote:

I don't know, you will have to ask her, but I imagine she had some actual PvP to engage in rather than a participate in some meaningless playground sparring like the Alliance Tournament. Real PvP, that is elite PVP does not take place at a scheduled time and place in a pre-arranged contest that has no actual impact on New Eden.

Does anyone even remember who won that tournament? All I remember is everyone talking only about CODE. and that the history that was made.


Anything any character does at any time basically fits under the umbrella term of 'PvP' in this game. Parsing it into 'real' or 'fake' is fairly meaningless.

Camel Empire won a much deserved victory. Not coincidentally, they are very active and full of talented pilots. Would you engage a Camel Empire pilot?

High Sec ganking is exceptionally one dimensional. I've FC'ed tons of gank fleets, and yes its fun, but the rules are incredibly limiting and prevent what could be interesting conflicts.

Vote Vic Jefferson for CSM X.....XI.....XII?

Ageanal Olerie
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#53 - 2015-01-26 23:41:44 UTC
I think it's a fantastic idea.

Oh and I'm just eating up those suicide ganker tears. I'd love to see CCP make more of them.

Lol

I have a feeling they enjoy them too. While this type of game play is certainly an intended possibility, that doesn't mean that CCP has any love for you people. They probably find you just as reprehensible as any decent human being would. You're the type of people that in the real world bring international condemnation.

There's legitimate good fun PvP and then there's griefing and ruining other people's experience.

While I generally oppose restrictions on what CAN be done in EVE, I would certainly keep the "can be done" in the game, but make the penalties for doing so in Empire space ever more severe.

Zan Shiro
Alternative Enterprises
#54 - 2015-01-26 23:42:58 UTC  |  Edited by: Zan Shiro
Rez the dead horse time....


Gank is an economic control in empire. CCP wants it to happen. Accept and move on.

A wh resident will make billions upon billions in their eve lifetime. However...they will lose billions too. As t3 pvp common there and costs some isk, especially with shiny mods.


I did 0.0 in non FRP/SRP homes. I made billions upon billions. And lost a few billion in pvp losses along the way.

Moral to this story....outside of empire players can and will lose a little of that isk they make in this game in pvp losses. Some call this isk control. My usual story....I bagged an officer spawn long ago for 1 bil + once drop sold. And I lost more than half of that in less than 2 weeks later in pvp losses.

Empire gets this control as well...via ganking. If unlike 0.0 or wh a player doesn't want to give back a little to the game in pvp losses by choice...the game has ganking to make it happen all the same.
Misha Tokila
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#55 - 2015-01-27 00:29:45 UTC
As the OP, I am actually pleased that this thread has sparked such a discussion. This is a topic that needs to be discussed in both the community and CCP.

To address a couple of concerns that were brought up:

Faction Wars

Someone please correct me if I'm wrong, but my understanding is that if players who are engaged in faction warfare go at each other, there is no security status loss on either side of the conflict. So the security status penalties should not apply.

Low-Sec Piracy and PvP

I don't see anything wrong with how my proposal will affect this group of players. There are plenty of stations in lowsec that offer repair services and cloning facilities. I do have an idea for lowsec PvP though. If the person getting attacked fights back, then the GCC turns into a limited engagement timer which allows the fight to take place, and thus avoid the security status hit on the attacker. This could be enabled by an option in the ESC menu. This would allow legitimate PVP to take place between players, and allow players to fight back against piracy. So if someone attacks a player who doesn;t have this setting turned on, will still get the security status hit whether or not they fight back. This could also apply in highsec, and an icon could be set on a player in the overview to indicate this status. I can see many possibilities with something like this.

Null-Sec PvP

This is considered lawless space. As such, there are no security status reductions for any form of game play in this area of space. I've been in null. I've setup gate camps as well as camps in space between gates.



Lest we forget, the proposal that I put forth does not affect low-sec or null-sec in any way. It does, however, make living in high-sec a little more tedious and dangerous for an individual who has a low security status. Since it was brought up, I'm not trying to support miners/freighters here. But the problem I see with freighter ganking is that you can bump a freighter indefinitely until a gank fleet shows up to make an attempt to kill the freighter, perhaps more than one attempt. I have a couple of ideas for bumping, but I'll leave that for another thread.
Donnachadh
United Allegiance of Undesirables
#56 - 2015-01-27 03:37:26 UTC
I had lots to say in response to posts here, because of the 5 quote limit I will just do this instead.

CCP may want ganks to happen and right now they have the luxury of allowing ganks to continue to happen. If / when CCP determines that ganking poses a risk to the paying player base it will go away and you can count on that.

Nerfing the reward vs risk ration will not drive players into low, nul or WH it is far more likely to simply drive them out of the game. If you want more players in low, nul, WH then those areas are the things that need to change either by the players or by CCP. CCP is working on nul and it remains to be seen if their changes will actually bring new life to the nul sec regions.
Another note to this, with the costs of ships/fittings going up constantly reducing the ISK per hour ratio in high sec may have a serious damping affect on the markets of EVE as they will have less ISK to spend, maybe this is good maybe not.

Of course players are using alts in high sec to make ISK instead of nul it just makes sense, While the ISK per hour possibilities are significantly higher in nul so are the risks of losing a ship and those ships cost more than is used in high. Perhaps this will change as CCP continues on the path of righting the nul sec ship as it were only time will tell.

Because the nul players are currently to risk averse to continue to make their ISK there does not in and of itself mean that things are out of balance in high sec. My son and more than 2 dozen of his real life, EVE made friends currently call nul home and comparing their ship costs vs incomes is very interesting. In nul the average ship they use for ratting, anoms etc is equal to the ISK made in about 15-20 hours of time spent pursuing these activities. Here in high sec using the corps I have characters in as well as RL friends as examples the same holds true, we need about 15-20 hours of missions. anoms etc to buy an average ship used for these activities. When looked at from this perspective the ISK per hour balance seems to be about perfect.

PvP vs PvE is an easy one, you simply cannot make people fight one another no matter what you do. So you have to accept that there are different play styles and keeping all of those different play styles engaged and paying for their accounts is good for the game no matter what you think should happen. That is one of the things that CCP is doing very well at the moment keeping the game balanced and attractive to a wide variety of players and that includes the WOW contingent.


Ageanal Olerie wrote:
I think it's a fantastic idea.

Oh and I'm just eating up those suicide ganker tears. I'd love to see CCP make more of them.

Lol

I have a feeling they enjoy them too. While this type of game play is certainly an intended possibility, that doesn't mean that CCP has any love for you people. They probably find you just as reprehensible as any decent human being would. You're the type of people that in the real world bring international condemnation.

I agree with you that ganker tears are far more satisfying. I also find it interesting that gankers are quick to point out the "entitlement" attitude of their targets yet in many ways the gankers have a different form of that same entitlement attitude.

I will have to disagree with you on the ganker players themselves, we only know the side they choose to show here in this game, we have no idea what they are like in real life.
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#57 - 2015-01-27 06:16:56 UTC
Donnachadh wrote:


CCP may want ganks to happen and right now they have the luxury of allowing ganks to continue to happen. If / when CCP determines that ganking poses a risk to the paying player base it will go away and you can count on that.


Its been in the game for well over a decade, if it was going to impact the playerbase numbers it would have done so by now.

Frankly, CCP should return us to what it was like in the days of M0o so you spineless bears can see just how good you have it.
Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
#58 - 2015-01-27 06:28:25 UTC
Donnachadh wrote:

I agree with you that ganker tears are far more satisfying. I also find it interesting that gankers are quick to point out the "entitlement" attitude of their targets yet in many ways the gankers have a different form of that same entitlement attitude.


It's not entitlement to say that a playstyle should exist, or that people ought to use more than half their ass to defend themselves.

"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."

One of ours, ten of theirs.

Best Meltdown Ever.

Lyra Gerie
Garoun Investment Bank
Gallente Federation
#59 - 2015-01-27 07:05:54 UTC
The problem with this idea is that it's just standing, not faction standing.

It's like knowing someone is a jerk, nothing happens aside from getting snide stares and remarks because he's a jerk, but that's no reason not to let him into your store to pay you for things.

Now if he started flipping your displays and stuff (faction standings) the store would kick him out because it would lose them money/customers.

Now perhaps if players with high faction standings in faction space getting killed could lower faction standings towards these players and have those faction standings be what determines docking rights. However then you run into the issue of mission runners who want to repair their standings but can't because they are unable to dock at a hostile station to accept missions to repair said standings.

Long story short this wouldn't really work.
Black Pedro
Mine.
#60 - 2015-01-27 07:38:33 UTC  |  Edited by: Black Pedro
Vic Jefferson wrote:

Anything any character does at any time basically fits under the umbrella term of 'PvP' in this game. Parsing it into 'real' or 'fake' is fairly meaningless.
Ok, believe what you want. The Alliance Tournament is PvP alright, but it is as real PvP as dueling your corpmate "just until structure" at the sun. It is completely consensual, balanced, and has no meaningful impact on the sandbox that is New Eden so while it is PvP, it barely qualifies as actually playing Eve. It might as well be happening on the test server for all anyone outside it cares.

Vic Jefferson wrote:
Camel Empire won a much deserved victory. Not coincidentally, they are very active and full of talented pilots. Would you engage a Camel Empire pilot?
I have nothing against an organized, effective and active PvP alliance like The Camel Empire (to be fair I did remember the winners had either camel or llama in their name but I couldn't remember which). Their killboard shows them engaging in real PvP everyday, just like the guys in the CODE. alliance. And I would of course engage them, if I thought I had at a least as small chance at victory, but that would be determined way more by the specific situation, the ships involved, and what friends I had with me rather than some "ship-flying talent" you think is important, or that they won an organized contest last year. You know, the unknown and unpredictable factors that make real PvP in Eve interesting?

Vic Jefferson wrote:
High Sec ganking is exceptionally one dimensional. I've FC'ed tons of gank fleets, and yes its fun, but the rules are incredibly limiting and prevent what could be interesting conflicts.
The convoluted and punishing rules of highsec do limit the escalation of PvP in response to a criminal action but this is by design (and what makes those that partake in PvP under these conditions so elite). Criminals are suppose to scurry from and back to the shadows, but there is no option for a "gudfight" to allow a target vengeance, even if the ganker and the target both want it which I agree is a problem. However, the solution is not more arbitrary NPC-enforced rules like the OP proposes which do nothing to promote conflict or make the highsec criminal mini-game better.