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Latest CSM notes : Rumours of attribute points/implants being removed.

First post First post
Author
Dracones
Tarsis Inc
#141 - 2015-01-26 15:40:08 UTC
Incestuous Criticism wrote:

But to say lets remove them because it is too complex for new players to grasp and it is unfair, well then there are many things that will need to change about EVE because guess what... it is a complex game.


There's a different between needless complexity and depth of gameplay. The depth of ship building is a good thing in Eve, but needing to use tools like Pyfa and EFT shows a problem. In that case the devs are working on making the in game tool work more like EFT.

Evemon and skill planners indicates that another area of the game has a problem. Now they could port that functionality into the game or they could look into whether or not the core system needs work. With ship building the core system is pretty solid, except for a few areas which is one reason why they're doing a module tiercide. But on the attributes front it may make more sense to scrap the existing system and put in something that's still provides options for specialization but is a lot clearer than combinations of two attributes equaling some formula of SP/hour.
Dominique Vasilkovsky
#142 - 2015-01-26 15:44:25 UTC
Chaotix Morwen wrote:
Why is everybody obsessed with removing choices from this game? Learning implants have always given people the choice of risk vs reward, you people are essentially asking for the reward without the risk.

I'll bet you loved the choice given back when we had learning skills to train as well.

It isn't about risk, it is about a stupid mechanic that shouldn't have been added to start with. I would happily replace my +5s with highgrade pirate implants if it wasn't for the SP/h penalty currently imposed.
Frostys Virpio
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#143 - 2015-01-26 15:44:29 UTC
Aralyn Cormallen wrote:
Memphis Baas wrote:
Louise Beethoven wrote:
Do it CCP, remove attribute points. However everyone should get 2,700sp/h training across the board, it's the only fair way to do it.


Why not make the server-side calculations and the newbie tutorials a lot simpler, and just give 1 point per second (3600/h).


Would you like a free supercap, some faction modules, and a T2 BPO or two with that insane handout?


Do I get a free alt for the super too since I am not trained/willing to "spacecoffin" this toon?

:D
Incestuous Criticism
#144 - 2015-01-26 15:57:53 UTC
Dracones wrote:
Incestuous Criticism wrote:

But to say lets remove them because it is too complex for new players to grasp and it is unfair, well then there are many things that will need to change about EVE because guess what... it is a complex game.


There's a different between needless complexity and depth of gameplay. The depth of ship building is a good thing in Eve, but needing to use tools like Pyfa and EFT shows a problem. In that case the devs are working on making the in game tool work more like EFT.

Evemon and skill planners indicates that another area of the game has a problem. Now they could port that functionality into the game or they could look into whether or not the core system needs work. With ship building the core system is pretty solid, except for a few areas which is one reason why they're doing a module tiercide. But on the attributes front it may make more sense to scrap the existing system and put in something that's still provides options for specialization but is a lot clearer than combinations of two attributes equaling some formula of SP/hour.



I agree third party tools to decide what to do should be a in game thing. Granted that. But why is it so difficult to think that in order to train Gunnery faster you need to have high Perception and Willpower.

I see these little things no different that in order to be a fighter pilot you need strong in Maths and Physics.

To be an artist you need to be strong in (i dont know tree hugging and cardigan wearing - no offence to any artist reading this, it is an in joke with my daughter - she is my artist.)

So why is it to complex to have the same philosphy in game.
Soldarius
Dreddit
Test Alliance Please Ignore
#145 - 2015-01-26 16:08:31 UTC
Pretty much anything you want to train you can train to a fairly good level (4) without having to resort to remaps or even worry about attributes, with the exception of certain skills locked behind high multiplier level 5 prerequisites, ie Black Ops Battleships or Titans.

Personally, I only remap when I want to train all the skills with those attributes to 5, specifically specializations. Otherwise, imo it is not worth the remap to shave 18 hours off of the 30 days required to get a bunch of skills to 4.

I see no reason to remove learning implants.

http://youtu.be/YVkUvmDQ3HY

Dracones
Tarsis Inc
#146 - 2015-01-26 16:11:49 UTC
Incestuous Criticism wrote:

I agree third party tools to decide what to do should be a in game thing. Granted that. But why is it so difficult to think that in order to train Gunnery faster you need to have high Perception and Willpower.

I see these little things no different that in order to be a fighter pilot you need strong in Maths and Physics.


So with Perception/Willpower how much faster do you train Gunnery when they're 25/23 vs 23/21? Or if they're 23/25? Also many times the attributes used aren't really that obvious. Most of the time they're grouped along certain lines(perception/willpower, int/memory) but all that does is make it so certain attributes are better than others(ex/ Cha being a dump stat).

It's really a legacy mechanic from back when they "locked in" the type of character you were(combat, indy, etc) at creation. If you're not locking in people anymore there's probably a much better way to let people temporarily specialize, like plugging in Math and Physic implants while you train to be a fighter pilot.

Doing that lets you make what's going on more obvious(Fighter Training Implant +10%) and also let's you open up more options for letting people specialize/optimize rather than just the 5 attributes. This especially would hold true if the specialization was done via implants because then you can add/remove them into the game via the drop tables. They'd no longer be a hard coded/inflexible game mechanic.
Incestuous Criticism
#147 - 2015-01-26 16:25:46 UTC
"So with Perception/Willpower how much faster do you train Gunnery when they're 25/23 vs 23/21? Or if they're 23/25?"
Yes granted there isnt much of a noticable difference, so maybe instead of removing it make it so that if you do select a higher level of attribute it is worth it.


"It's really a legacy mechanic from back when they "locked in" the type of character you were(combat, indy, etc) at creation. If you're not locking in people anymore there's probably a much better way to let people temporarily specialize, like plugging in Math and Physic implants while you train to be a fighter pilot."

But I guess this is one point that I struggle with, why lock people in. Because you know what sometimes there are consequences for your actions. To many people dont want to have consequences for an action. You can't just try and be a pilot, it is something you have to decide. Granted you can start the training and if you decide you dont like it, then you change, but you cant just change at a drop of a hat. There is some planning and possible re-training.

I like having the attributes, I think they should be in game but make them more specific and meaningful, plus with attribute enhancers, if you want to fly a Black Ops, then you focus on that ship, if you want to be a Mackinaw Pilot then you focus on that and map your attributes accordingly to give to the fastest possible way to train.

Maybe then allow for remaps sooner than a year bcause lets face it, flying a Mackniaw for a year can be a bit of a drag, you might suddenly wake up and get the taste for PVP. Oh wait thats right they are suppose to make people PVP adverse.
Altirius Saldiaro
Doomheim
#148 - 2015-01-26 16:26:35 UTC
They wont remove implants
Gregor Parud
Imperial Academy
#149 - 2015-01-26 16:57:34 UTC  |  Edited by: Gregor Parud
Dominique Vasilkovsky wrote:
Gregor Parud wrote:
Olive branch time:


We remove implants, we remove remaps. BUT, we don't get compensated for the loss of training speed through increased base attribs. So they stay 19-20 attrib points.

That way everyone has the same learning speed and all is fine.

At 1800SP/h the skill training will be reduced a good 33% so it will be worse for the low SP characters as it will take even longer for them to catch up.



They can't catch up, older players will get SP at the same rate regardless of what that rate is. But isn't that what people in this thread want? Equality?

I thought this thread was about not giving older, more wealthy players, and advantage so I'm sure everyone will agree to a no remaps, no implants solution, regardless of the base attribs as it creates equality? What's wrong with the base 19-20 attribs?
Dominique Vasilkovsky
#150 - 2015-01-26 17:16:18 UTC
Gregor Parud wrote:
I thought this thread was about not giving older, more wealthy players, and advantage so I'm sure everyone will agree to a no remaps, no implants solution, regardless of the base attribs as it creates equality? What's wrong with the base 19-20 attribs?

What I can do after 9 years with an average of 2447SP/h will take a new starter a good 12+ years to do due to a lower speed cap (1800SP/h).

If the cap is set to 2700SP/h for everyone that same new starter would be at my current level after only 8 years.
Black Dranzer
#151 - 2015-01-26 17:24:08 UTC
Ahh, politics.

Okay, here's what's going to happen. Attributes, remaps, and attribute implants are going to die. Regular combat implants are going to remain, but they're probably going to be rebalanced a bit to compensate for some of the missing holes.

SP will become a flat SP/H based on the current maximum, or something very close to it. In addition, expect a balancing pass for implants. They might take the opportunity to rework the bonuses a bit, but overall the system should remain superficially the same: Stick chips in your head for fighty power, get podded and lose the fighty power. Circle of life. Expect compensation in the form of LP for any implants that go missing.

I know all this because I have over a decade of studying MMOs in general and EVE in particular, and also because I have the cognitive ability required to whistle and **** at the same time.

The core of it is this: Due to a combination of tradition and greed, MMO companies like to keep you from being max level too quickly. They put up walls between newbie level and maxed out character level. Eve's skill system is different from the leveling systems you see in most MMOs, but the fundamental drive is the same.

What isn't the same, however, is the methodology. Eve's designers originally made the brilliant observation that the goal of the "grind" is too keep people from getting powerful too quickly. That is, it's a delay. It's about time. So why not make the progression system in Eve purely a question of waiting? It's a simple system, and you don't force people to do **** they don't want to in order to advance.

But see, here's the kicker. In most MMOs, progression speed is not a universal constant. There's no real hard cap on how fast you can hit 100 in WoW. I mean, in practice there is, but it's a soft sort of cap. In Eve, it's really hard and fast. But there's still some minor variance. Implants, attributes, remaps.

CCP wants to kill that variance.

Why?

Because it is a dominating force. You can always say "I'll level faster". You can always say "I'll grind more missions" or "I'll mine more Veldspar". But you can't say "I'll create more time". You can't magic any extra hours out of your ass. Which means if people are given the choice of "make the most of my only hard limited resource" or "do literally anything else", you better believe they're going to go with sitting in a station with a head full of +5s. It's the same logic that caused learning skills to get vaporized way back when, and it's just as relevant now as it was back then.

This is why the system is bad. This is why it's going to die. This is why the game will be better for it.

No, your precious hardcore sandbox is not going away. Nobody's getting free Titans in their inbox. This is not the beginning of the end, it's another step in the endless refining process. Embrace the change and realize it'll result in better living for everybody.

Or cry loudly. It doesn't make a lot of difference.
Syn Shi
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#152 - 2015-01-26 17:38:21 UTC
Black Dranzer wrote:
Ahh, politics.

Okay, here's what's going to happen. Attributes, remaps, and attribute implants are going to die. Regular combat implants are going to remain, but they're probably going to be rebalanced a bit to compensate for some of the missing holes.

SP will become a flat SP/H based on the current maximum, or something very close to it. In addition, expect a balancing pass for implants. They might take the opportunity to rework the bonuses a bit, but overall the system should remain superficially the same: Stick chips in your head for fighty power, get podded and lose the fighty power. Circle of life. Expect compensation in the form of LP for any implants that go missing.

I know all this because I have over a decade of studying MMOs in general and EVE in particular, and also because I have the cognitive ability required to whistle and **** at the same time.

The core of it is this: Due to a combination of tradition and greed, MMO companies like to keep you from being max level too quickly. They put up walls between newbie level and maxed out character level. Eve's skill system is different from the leveling systems you see in most MMOs, but the fundamental drive is the same.

What isn't the same, however, is the methodology. Eve's designers originally made the brilliant observation that the goal of the "grind" is too keep people from getting powerful too quickly. That is, it's a delay. It's about time. So why not make the progression system in Eve purely a question of waiting? It's a simple system, and you don't force people to do **** they don't want to in order to advance.

But see, here's the kicker. In most MMOs, progression speed is not a universal constant. There's no real hard cap on how fast you can hit 100 in WoW. I mean, in practice there is, but it's a soft sort of cap. In Eve, it's really hard and fast. But there's still some minor variance. Implants, attributes, remaps.

CCP wants to kill that variance.

Why?

Because it is a dominating force. You can always say "I'll level faster". You can always say "I'll grind more missions" or "I'll mine more Veldspar". But you can't say "I'll create more time". You can't magic any extra hours out of your ass. Which means if people are given the choice of "make the most of my only hard limited resource" or "do literally anything else", you better believe they're going to go with sitting in a station with a head full of +5s. It's the same logic that caused learning skills to get vaporized way back when, and it's just as relevant now as it was back then.

This is why the system is bad. This is why it's going to die. This is why the game will be better for it.

No, your precious hardcore sandbox is not going away. Nobody's getting free Titans in their inbox. This is not the beginning of the end, it's another step in the endless refining process. Embrace the change and realize it'll result in better living for everybody.

Or cry loudly. It doesn't make a lot of difference.


Get isk and buy a character in the bizarre with the skills already trained. There is a solution.
Gregor Parud
Imperial Academy
#153 - 2015-01-26 17:49:28 UTC
Dominique Vasilkovsky wrote:
Gregor Parud wrote:
I thought this thread was about not giving older, more wealthy players, and advantage so I'm sure everyone will agree to a no remaps, no implants solution, regardless of the base attribs as it creates equality? What's wrong with the base 19-20 attribs?

What I can do after 9 years with an average of 2447SP/h will take a new starter a good 12+ years to do due to a lower speed cap (1800SP/h).

If the cap is set to 2700SP/h for everyone that same new starter would be at my current level after only 8 years.



No, your logic is flawed. I thought this was about evening the playing field, removing implants and remaps? Regardless of what everyone's SP/h will be set to, newbies will never catch up to older players so given that it really doesn't matter what the sp/h is.


Or... could it be... just perhaps... that this isn't at all about equality, but about how you and everyone else want 2700SP/h without any of the downsides? That this whole "nonono, it's better for the game and the newbies, THINK OF THE NEWBIES!" is just a lie?

SAY IT AINT SO!
Solops Crendraven
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#154 - 2015-01-26 17:52:01 UTC  |  Edited by: Solops Crendraven
Black Dranzer wrote:
Ahh, politics.

Okay, here's what's going to happen. Attributes, remaps, and attribute implants are going to die. Regular combat implants are going to remain, but they're probably going to be rebalanced a bit to compensate for some of the missing holes.

SP will become a flat SP/H based on the current maximum, or something very close to it. In addition, expect a balancing pass for implants. They might take the opportunity to rework the bonuses a bit, but overall the system should remain superficially the same: Stick chips in your head for fighty power, get podded and lose the fighty power. Circle of life. Expect compensation in the form of LP for any implants that go missing.

I know all this because I have over a decade of studying MMOs in general and EVE in particular, and also because I have the cognitive ability required to whistle and **** at the same time.

The core of it is this: Due to a combination of tradition and greed, MMO companies like to keep you from being max level too quickly. They put up walls between newbie level and maxed out character level. Eve's skill system is different from the leveling systems you see in most MMOs, but the fundamental drive is the same.

What isn't the same, however, is the methodology. Eve's designers originally made the brilliant observation that the goal of the "grind" is too keep people from getting powerful too quickly. That is, it's a delay. It's about time. So why not make the progression system in Eve purely a question of waiting? It's a simple system, and you don't force people to do **** they don't want to in order to advance.

But see, here's the kicker. In most MMOs, progression speed is not a universal constant. There's no real hard cap on how fast you can hit 100 in WoW. I mean, in practice there is, but it's a soft sort of cap. In Eve, it's really hard and fast. But there's still some minor variance. Implants, attributes, remaps.

CCP wants to kill that variance.

Why?

Because it is a dominating force. You can always say "I'll level faster". You can always say "I'll grind more missions" or "I'll mine more Veldspar". But you can't say "I'll create more time". You can't magic any extra hours out of your ass. Which means if people are given the choice of "make the most of my only hard limited resource" or "do literally anything else", you better believe they're going to go with sitting in a station with a head full of +5s. It's the same logic that caused learning skills to get vaporized way back when, and it's just as relevant now as it was back then.

This is why the system is bad. This is why it's going to die. This is why the game will be better for it.

No, your precious hardcore sandbox is not going away. Nobody's getting free Titans in their inbox. This is not the beginning of the end, it's another step in the endless refining process. Embrace the change and realize it'll result in better living for everybody.

Or cry loudly. It doesn't make a lot of difference.

You couldnt Have Said this any better And The Faster this Happens even more the Better. however Veterens should be Compensated.

Moving To Las Vegas Watch Me Play Poker! enter link description here

Gregor Parud
Imperial Academy
#155 - 2015-01-26 18:02:57 UTC
Black Dranzer wrote:
Ahh, politics.


Nice try, but it's just a shill.

Removing implants and remaps does not in any way diminish or remove this "problem" (ps, there is no problem). It's all just clueless people trying their best to convince others of how sincere they are. Newbies do not get into a better position if remaps or implants get removed.


All that gets removed is possible risk and consequences to choices, which is of course what bad EVE players want.
Gregor Parud
Imperial Academy
#156 - 2015-01-26 18:07:48 UTC
Solops Crendraven wrote:
Black Dranzer wrote:
Ahh, politics.

You couldnt Have Said this any better And The Faster this Happens even more the Better. however Veterens should be Compensated.


It's funny how a quick facts check shows both of you to be amazingly inept at EVE, yet you somehow try to portray yourselves as being capable of knowing what's best for the game.
Aralyn Cormallen
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#157 - 2015-01-26 18:07:50 UTC  |  Edited by: Aralyn Cormallen
Frostys Virpio wrote:
Aralyn Cormallen wrote:
Memphis Baas wrote:
Louise Beethoven wrote:
Do it CCP, remove attribute points. However everyone should get 2,700sp/h training across the board, it's the only fair way to do it.


Why not make the server-side calculations and the newbie tutorials a lot simpler, and just give 1 point per second (3600/h).


Would you like a free supercap, some faction modules, and a T2 BPO or two with that insane handout?


Do I get a free alt for the super too since I am not trained/willing to "spacecoffin" this toon?

:D


Two at least (you'll need a cyno alt). And since you asked nicely they should throw in a pony too.

EDIT: Not throw! Nicely place down in front of you, and give it a pat and a carrot, this post in no way endorses cruelty to animals Oops
Solops Crendraven
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#158 - 2015-01-26 18:26:09 UTC  |  Edited by: Solops Crendraven
Gregor Parud wrote:
Solops Crendraven wrote:
Black Dranzer wrote:
Ahh, politics.

You couldnt Have Said this any better And The Faster this Happens even more the Better. however Veterens should be Compensated.


It's funny how a quick facts check shows both of you to be amazingly inept at EVE, yet you somehow try to portray yourselves as being capable of knowing what's best for the game.

You right Im Far from being a Eve expert However From A Paying Customer and My Individual point of view Paying $100 dollars a Month for subs I would be rather spending my Isk Buying Ships and Blowing up ships ASAP. Than waiting around training skills for 460 days to be able fly what I want and on top of that i gotta train for Implants that i can lose and evn lose more isk.Im sorry Its a scam to get us to pay more Money and Really its addictive like Crack I wouldve Cut my Losses a long time ago the reason I dont UNsub is I committed thousands of dollars to this game I would have to be crazy to terminate it (trust me Ive thought about it)whatever CCP knows exactly what they are doing they know how to keep us addicted.

Moving To Las Vegas Watch Me Play Poker! enter link description here

Gregor Parud
Imperial Academy
#159 - 2015-01-26 18:37:01 UTC
Solops Crendraven wrote:
You right Im Far from being a Eve expert However From A Paying Customer and My Individual point of view Paying $100 dollars a Month for subs I would be rather spending my Isk Buying Ships and Blowing up ships ASAP. Than waiting around training skills for 460 days to be able fly what I want and on top of that i gotta train for Implants that i can lose and evn lose more isk.Im sorry Its a scam to get us to pay more Money and Really its addictive like Crack I wouldve Cut my Lose a long time ago the reason I dont UNsub is I committed thousands of dollars to this game I would have to be crazy to terminate it (trust Ive thought about it)whatever CCP knows exactly what the are doing they know how to keep us addicted.


You just went full ******, never go full ******. Your hilariously dumb "caps on everything", which is just you being attention whore, and what you... typed gives an overall feeling of you being clueless on the game.

Also, you showcased just brilliantly as to why you're just a hypocrite liar. You're not in this "for the betterment of the game" or "think of the newbies", it's just you being selfish and want this for personal reasons which mostly have to do with your warped idea of how SP is important, and how you want to speed up training without downsides to get to your personal goals asap.

You can stop the charade, no one's buying it.
Solops Crendraven
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#160 - 2015-01-26 19:48:02 UTC
Gregor Parud wrote:
Solops Crendraven wrote:
You right Im Far from being a Eve expert However From A Paying Customer and My Individual point of view Paying $100 dollars a Month for subs I would be rather spending my Isk Buying Ships and Blowing up ships ASAP. Than waiting around training skills for 460 days to be able fly what I want and on top of that i gotta train for Implants that i can lose and evn lose more isk.Im sorry Its a scam to get us to pay more Money and Really its addictive like Crack I wouldve Cut my Lose a long time ago the reason I dont UNsub is I committed thousands of dollars to this game I would have to be crazy to terminate it (trust Ive thought about it)whatever CCP knows exactly what the are doing they know how to keep us addicted.


You just went full ******, never go full ******. Your hilariously dumb "caps on everything", which is just you being attention *****, and what you... typed gives an overall feeling of you being clueless on the game.

Also, you showcased just brilliantly as to why you're just a hypocrite liar. You're not in this "for the betterment of the game" or "think of the newbies", it's just you being selfish and want this for personal reasons which mostly have to do with your warped idea of how SP is important, and how you want to speed up training without downsides to get to your personal goals asap.

You can stop the charade, no one's buying it.

I dont expect everyone to agree thats Foolish I actually enjoy the challenge.However How is your Post "betterment Of The Game"Whats wrong with speeding Up The game and getting Rid of SP?Is That so Selfish,Brilliant perhaps. a Hyprocrite Liar Im Not.. This will even the playing field New Players and Veterans a like (Old Players will be compensated ) that is more than fair.

Moving To Las Vegas Watch Me Play Poker! enter link description here