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Being griefed by other industry players.

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Kyra Felann
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#61 - 2011-12-20 01:46:06 UTC
Ignore the "minerals I mine are free" thing for now. It doesn't matter how you acquired them--they always have a value.

Let's say you (mine/steal/buy/are given/find) minerals that could be sold on the market for 100 million. It doesn't matter how you acquired them--if you can sell them on the market for 100 million, that means they are worth 100 million.

Let's say you take those minerals and make a ship out of them. Now, if that ship can be sold on the market for 110 million, great--you just made profit. If that ship can only be sold for 90 million, though, you lost money.

Turning something worth 100 million into something worth less than 100 million is losing money.

Let's try a real-world example: say you find a $20 bill on the ground (or Euros or whatever). Now I come up to you and offer to buy that $20 bill for $10. I say "It was free. You didn't pay any money for it--you just found it--so that means you're making $10 profit, right?" Would you agree to that deal?
Crumplecorn
Eve Cluster Explorations
#62 - 2011-12-20 01:49:28 UTC
Kyra Felann wrote:
Let's try a real-world example: say you find a $20 bill on the ground (or Euros or whatever). Now I come up to you and offer to buy that $20 bill for $10. I say "It was free. You didn't pay any money for it--you just found it--so that means you're making $10 profit, right?" Would you agree to that deal?
I will be using this example every time this comes up and I'm feeling helpful.

Witty Image - Stream

Not Liking this post hurts my RL feelings and will be considered harassment
Kyra Felann
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#63 - 2011-12-20 01:52:19 UTC
Akita T wrote:
Technically, minerals you mine ARE free.
Then again, so is ISK. Yes, ISK is free, technically. In the same way minerals you mine are free.

Minerals you mine are not worthless.
And neither are they worth less than minerals you buy from the market.

If you want to reduce the worth of stuff you own... well... do whatever you like.
Just stop deluding yourself that you're not.


Exactly.

It's not about whether minerals you mine are free or not, it's about turning something you own into something that's worth less money.

People talking about maximum ISK/hour lead to people talking about "EVE is just a game" and in the end, both of them miss the point. Do whatever you want in EVE--mine, mission, pirate, mercenary work, whatever--just don't turn stuff you own into less valuable stuff, or if you do, at least admit to yourself and everyone else that you're throwing away money that's already practically in your pocket.
Akita T
Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
#64 - 2011-12-20 01:54:59 UTC
Jaroslav Unwanted wrote:
Akita T wrote:
Technically, minerals you mine ARE free.
Then again, so is ISK. Yes, ISK is free, technically. In the same way minerals you mine are free.

Minerals you mine are not worthless.
And neither are they worth less than minerals you buy from the market.

If you want to reduce the worth of stuff you own... well... do whatever you like.
Just stop deluding yourself that you're not.


Reality check ..
What is an "value", what creates such, which is actually real and exist beyond our created measures.

The indicator of virtual value of things in this game is called ISK and that value is constantly readjusted.
The interactions between players determine the ISK value of most virtual objects or services.
It's as simple as that.

Akita T evewiki profile | | | Build your own EVE-ready PC
Hazzard
Chaotic Dynamics
#65 - 2011-12-20 03:13:24 UTC
If you think the rocks are free your an idiot.
Asuri Kinnes
Perkone
Caldari State
#66 - 2011-12-20 03:23:24 UTC
Hazzard wrote:
If you think the rocks are free your an idiot.

The rocks are free - it's the game that costs money.

Bob is the god of Wormholes.

That's all you need to know.
Mr Hellcat
Apocryphal Solutions
#67 - 2011-12-20 04:27:38 UTC
Kyra Felann wrote:
Ignore the "minerals I mine are free" thing for now. It doesn't matter how you acquired them--they always have a value.

Let's say you (mine/steal/buy/are given/find) minerals that could be sold on the market for 100 million. It doesn't matter how you acquired them--if you can sell them on the market for 100 million, that means they are worth 100 million.

Let's say you take those minerals and make a ship out of them. Now, if that ship can be sold on the market for 110 million, great--you just made profit. If that ship can only be sold for 90 million, though, you lost money.

Turning something worth 100 million into something worth less than 100 million is losing money.

Let's try a real-world example: say you find a $20 bill on the ground (or Euros or whatever). Now I come up to you and offer to buy that $20 bill for $10. I say "It was free. You didn't pay any money for it--you just found it--so that means you're making $10 profit, right?" Would you agree to that deal?


Your real world example needs lots of work. You really need to compare apples to apples and not to oranges.
Professor Alphane
Les Corsaires Diable
#68 - 2011-12-20 04:32:21 UTC
Also if you take this 'ISK potential' maximisation to it's logical conclusion surely every one in highsec would be in Jita changing market orders all day.

[center]YOU MUST THINK FIRST....[/center] [center]"I sit with the broken angels clutching at straws and nursing our scars.." - Marillion [/center] [center]The wise man watches the rise and fall of fools from afar[/center]
Ioci
Bad Girl Posse
#69 - 2011-12-20 04:38:23 UTC
So um... how cheap are you selling these "free" rocks for?

I could buy some cheap, "free" rocks off you..

R.I.P. Vile Rat
Baneken
Arctic Light Inc.
Arctic Light
#70 - 2011-12-20 07:10:51 UTC
Mr Hellcat wrote:
/quote]

Your real world example needs lots of work. You really need to compare apples to apples and not to oranges.


Right so, you're at the market fare selling these fine apple tarts for 10$ from the same amount of apples (1kg) that they guy in the next stall is selling away for 20$ per kg.
Yet you still somehow think you're making a good if not even better profit thne your rival because those apples after all grew all by them self and you only spent some of your free time (not money) on picking them and this also makes the said apples free.

For this analogue we assume that apples in your garden would actually have a cost worth mentioning ie. you would beat someone for stealing your apples from your garden.
Daemeon Fyral
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#71 - 2011-12-20 07:14:45 UTC
Diana Dour wrote:
Alt posting to protect myself from further persecution.

It's bad enough that the industry community has to deal with idiots on the outside

"y u mine?"
"to build things you ******* idiot"

Why do people play minecraft honestly? There must be some appeal, not everyone enjoys spamming grenades in 24/7 metro (stupid fps reference).

But when I mine because I want to build a ship and I build the ship, I'm either going to fly it or sell it. It's no use in the hangar collecting dust.

So I price it accordingly.

But then whoa!

"Hey diana why the **** are you pricing it so low, you're losing money."
"No I'm not dipshit, you are losing money I got these rocks for free *******"

If I wanted to be beholden to market prices 24/7 and kill myself over spread sheets I would buy the minerals like you.

If I just wanted to mine for money and not build things I would go to 0.0 with the idiots.

I mine because I like to build and can sell for whatever I want.

0.0 players who don't realize that 0.0 miners are the ones pushing rocks for money are WRONG, high sec miners like building things, stupid fucks.

Industrialist who buy off of the market lol@u I will continue to undercut you, because it is half the fun.


Thank you, thank you so very very much. by selling for less than mineral cost because you where using your "Free rocks" you have helped me out more than you could possibly imagine. Now I don't need to spend my own valuable time producing that ship, and I'm actually gonna make a higher profit margin than I would otherwise. so thanks.
Nova Fox
Novafox Shipyards
#72 - 2011-12-20 07:57:40 UTC
Because some of us found it much more effective to mine with guns.

Dust 514's CPM 1 Iron Wolf Saber Eve mail me about Dust 514 issues.
Zimmy Zeta
Perkone
Caldari State
#73 - 2011-12-20 09:49:05 UTC
Ranger 1 wrote:
Anyone that is upset that the OP is selling his BS below cost should instead be upset that they never realized they should simply buy his ships and resell them for a profit. Smile


this.

Any industrialist worth his salt should watch for those cheap opportunities and just buy the damn stuff. Afterwards you could
a. sell the items at normal market value
b. reprocess them.

I'd like to apologize for the poor quality of the post above and sincerely hope you didn't waste your time reading it. Yes, I do feel bad about it.
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#74 - 2011-12-20 10:16:29 UTC
Ioci wrote:
So um... how cheap are you selling these "free" rocks for?

I could buy some cheap, "free" rocks off you..

Well, that's one way of approaching it: while the OP's minerals certainly aren't free for him, he's kind enough to make them free for us… P

His loss is our gain.
Jaroslav Unwanted
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#75 - 2011-12-20 11:09:36 UTC  |  Edited by: Jaroslav Unwanted
Akita T wrote:
Jaroslav Unwanted wrote:
Akita T wrote:
Technically, minerals you mine ARE free.
Then again, so is ISK. Yes, ISK is free, technically. In the same way minerals you mine are free.

Minerals you mine are not worthless.
And neither are they worth less than minerals you buy from the market.

If you want to reduce the worth of stuff you own... well... do whatever you like.
Just stop deluding yourself that you're not.


Reality check ..
What is an "value", what creates such, which is actually real and exist beyond our created measures.

The indicator of virtual value of things in this game is called ISK and that value is constantly readjusted.
The interactions between players determine the ISK value of most virtual objects or services.
It's as simple as that.


So it is indeed man-created. It is "real" but does not really exist outside our perception. Limited understanding and petty world we somehow manage to create.
bitters much
Nekkid Inc.
#76 - 2011-12-20 11:22:10 UTC
I mined once, thought that the gained minerals came for free till I realized that in the process of mining I lost 3 million braincells Sad
Jaroslav Unwanted
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#77 - 2011-12-20 11:25:23 UTC
bitters much wrote:
I mined once, thought that the gained minerals came for free till I realized that in the process of mining I lost 3 million braincells Sad


Start drinking alcohol regluarly.. As it turned up... regular usage of alcohol is increasing number of brain cells...
But there is one but... Those new cells are connected to the need for alcohol.
Anshio Tamark
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#78 - 2011-12-20 11:39:07 UTC
Pak Narhoo wrote:
You should be stupid if you mine.

Why would one be stupid to mine? I know I'd rather sit for an hour or two after a stressing day and mine, instead of buying the minerals I need. Why? Because this way I get to decide how much I'll charge for my goods. Not someone else. If I want to sell Frigates at less than half price, I do it. I don't care about the competitors' prices. I just set my prices so I know I can get it sold.
Lexmana
#79 - 2011-12-20 11:40:02 UTC
I support this product and/or service.

"My rocks are free because I mine them myself " is just the industrialist equivalence of suicide ganking and also completely within the EULA.
Rauliq Noikiniggle
Garoun Investment Bank
Gallente Federation
#80 - 2011-12-20 11:40:54 UTC
If its not 35mil+/hr you aren't mining.