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Player Features and Ideas Discussion

 
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scanner redux
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Catherine Laartii
Doomheim
#1 - 2015-01-23 08:30:32 UTC  |  Edited by: Catherine Laartii
I think it's odd that such a useful item as a ship scanner isn't more commonly used in pvp; I think it would be handy to have as a high power slot itemr; quite a few frigates and cruisers have utility highs that aren't used very much, especially on kite fits.

Improving the ship scanner itself on top of that I think would be an interesting route to go. Combining the cargo scanner with it and giving it scripts for scanning different areas of the ship might be a decent route to go. You could even rename it a 'tactical scanner' if you wanted to be fancy.

For scripts, you could have the unscripted version work as current with the ship scanner, and you could have a cargo script that replaces the current scanner that can give detailed info on what's in different bays on the ship. Another script would display 'active stats' like resist profile, capacitor amount, and weapon info like current ammo loaded.

The tricky bit would be not getting too distracted by the scanner during a fight; there's a lot of interesting variables that would go into it.


a bit tired atm, so I apologize if this is presented as tangential; I just thought it would be very useful on a lot of the frigates I fly have somewhat awkward utility highs, so it would be fun to have on a condor or a slicer or something.
Danika Princip
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#2 - 2015-01-23 12:48:45 UTC
Why would you want to pack a highslot scanner, as opposed to something that would actually help you win the fight, like a random extra weapon, a neut or a NOS, or even something that helps you make more ISK afterwards like a salvager?
Godfrey Silvarna
Arctic Light Inc.
Arctic Light
#3 - 2015-01-23 12:55:09 UTC
Ship scanner is mostly useful only for energy neutralizing boats, but for them it is a very good module well worth a slot as it is.
Catherine Laartii
Doomheim
#4 - 2015-01-23 13:55:34 UTC
Danika Princip wrote:
Why would you want to pack a highslot scanner, as opposed to something that would actually help you win the fight, like a random extra weapon, a neut or a NOS, or even something that helps you make more ISK afterwards like a salvager?

because in many cases you don't have an extra weapon slot or the room to fit a neut or nos. This applies to many small t1 and faction ships in the game.
Catherine Laartii
Doomheim
#5 - 2015-01-23 13:57:25 UTC
Godfrey Silvarna wrote:
Ship scanner is mostly useful only for energy neutralizing boats, but for them it is a very good module well worth a slot as it is.

Getting a good idea of how someone's fit allows you to adapt tactics and ammo to better combat them; this is especially true in small skirmishes where you and/or your friends have projectiles or missiles with multiple damage types to be able to hit them in that resist hole they didn't plug.
Mornak
Exotic Dancers Union
Hatakani Trade Winds Combine
#6 - 2015-01-23 14:39:09 UTC
Catherine Laartii wrote:
Danika Princip wrote:
Why would you want to pack a highslot scanner, as opposed to something that would actually help you win the fight, like a random extra weapon, a neut or a NOS, or even something that helps you make more ISK afterwards like a salvager?

because in many cases you don't have an extra weapon slot or the room to fit a neut or nos. This applies to many small t1 and faction ships in the game.


so you'd want them with very small fitting-costs? it's quite a powerful tool you're offering with almost no downside.

(in case of small-scale or solo:)
as it is now, without your scanner, ppl need to have a wide knowledge of all the ship stats, common fittings, pilot behaviour, and so on, to get an advantage in a fight. you have to be a good/experienced pilot to have a good guess at the fitting of your opponent. here're some simplified examples:
mwd/ab fit? ->check speed of fit.
active hardener? -> check for graphics/animation.
what turrets/launchers? -> have a close look at that ship.
resist profile? -> hull-stats/experience/active-hardener/...
scram/web/long-point? -> experience with ship-hull or pilot. check how he/she's piloting.
...and so on, and so forth.

you want to replace knowledge and experience with this tool that comes at almost no fitting-cost and uses up a slot that has little influence on most fittings? i have to say no to this.


about the scripts: allowing ppl more choices with scripts is great. on a TD you have the choice of going for tracking OR optimal. prior to scripts this choice did not exist, more choices is a great thing.
but you want to remove a choice.. do i fit cargo or ship-scanner? both have their advantages and disadvantages, but you have to make your choice. with your scripts you can simply "swap" them depending on what you need. choices must have consequences.


TL;DR:
we already have this module, but it comes at a high price. a med-slot is a very valuable thing. iirc it does also require quite a bit of CPU. but that's a good thing. everything must come at a cost. you want a big advantage in one aspect? learn to live with the downsides.
Reaver Glitterstim
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#7 - 2015-01-23 15:25:25 UTC  |  Edited by: Reaver Glitterstim
Posting to confirm that more than 50% of my utility high slots have gone unused due to the lack of a module that would fit within available remaining powergrid and CPU. I sometimes fit a salvager for lack of anything else, but would usually prefer a ship or cargo scanner if it were available. This would increase my utility high slot usage by approximately 125% and my ship/cargo scanner usage by approximately 2750%.


Catherine Laartii wrote:
because in many cases you don't have an extra weapon slot or the room to fit a neut or nos. This applies to many small t1 and faction ships in the game.
I often can't fit a small neut or NOS on a battlecruiser. I have recently taken to fitting small deadspace remote reps due to their cheapness but have never actually managed to make use of one.

FT Diomedes: "Reaver, sometimes I wonder what you are thinking when you sit down to post."

Frostys Virpio: "We have to give it to him that he does put more effort than the vast majority in his idea but damn does it sometime come out of nowhere."
Catherine Laartii
Doomheim
#8 - 2015-01-23 20:51:39 UTC  |  Edited by: Catherine Laartii
Mornak wrote:
Catherine Laartii wrote:
Danika Princip wrote:
Why would you want to pack a highslot scanner, as opposed to something that would actually help you win the fight, like a random extra weapon, a neut or a NOS, or even something that helps you make more ISK afterwards like a salvager?

because in many cases you don't have an extra weapon slot or the room to fit a neut or nos. This applies to many small t1 and faction ships in the game.


so you'd want them with very small fitting-costs? it's quite a powerful tool you're offering with almost no downside.

(in case of small-scale or solo:)
as it is now, without your scanner, ppl need to have a wide knowledge of all the ship stats, common fittings, pilot behaviour, and so on, to get an advantage in a fight. you have to be a good/experienced pilot to have a good guess at the fitting of your opponent. here're some simplified examples:
mwd/ab fit? ->check speed of fit.
active hardener? -> check for graphics/animation.
what turrets/launchers? -> have a close look at that ship.
resist profile? -> hull-stats/experience/active-hardener/...
scram/web/long-point? -> experience with ship-hull or pilot. check how he/she's piloting.
...and so on, and so forth.

you want to replace knowledge and experience with this tool that comes at almost no fitting-cost and uses up a slot that has little influence on most fittings? i have to say no to this.


about the scripts: allowing ppl more choices with scripts is great. on a TD you have the choice of going for tracking OR optimal. prior to scripts this choice did not exist, more choices is a great thing.
but you want to remove a choice.. do i fit cargo or ship-scanner? both have their advantages and disadvantages, but you have to make your choice. with your scripts you can simply "swap" them depending on what you need. choices must have consequences.


TL;DR:
we already have this module, but it comes at a high price. a med-slot is a very valuable thing. iirc it does also require quite a bit of CPU. but that's a good thing. everything must come at a cost. you want a big advantage in one aspect? learn to live with the downsides.



The CPU reqs would be upped to be around 15-20 range, and the active scanning script would require continuous usage and continuous cap, so fitting costs would be balanced appropriately.

As you stated we already have this module, and a med slot IS a very valuable thing. Too valuable, in fact, to waste on an item like this. Things like points, webs, or more broadly a shield tank, are all to common and all to necessary for a 'utility' item like this that is actually useful. It's not an EWAR item, so for things like TDs or TPs that are used still have their own place in mid slots, while things like this fall more under utility like cloaks and probers do.

While you make a valid point about experience being necessary to guess and pick out fittings in a fight, that argument by itself is self-defeating. Your ability to garner an idea about how someone's fit isn't a tool or special ability by any stretch of the imagination, and so by that logic the only useful thing that this scanner would do would be the active script, since we can *already* get a good idea for how people are fit as you say. The difference is that gaining exact and intimate knowledge of how an enemy has their ship set up is extremely valuable intel because that takes it a step further, and gives you good ideas on their capabilities beyond the short term.

This also has a wide range of uses in fleet as well; knowing what jammers are fit or how enemy logistics or ewar are set up would be immensely helpful. Being able to gauge capacitor amount over time also lets more 'experienced' pilots do exactly what you stated earlier in regards to using their noggin to guess what's going on, except it's just a step further with things like capacitor and dps.
Catherine Laartii
Doomheim
#9 - 2015-01-23 20:55:43 UTC
Reaver Glitterstim wrote:
Posting to confirm that more than 50% of my utility high slots have gone unused due to the lack of a module that would fit within available remaining powergrid and CPU. I sometimes fit a salvager for lack of anything else, but would usually prefer a ship or cargo scanner if it were available. This would increase my utility high slot usage by approximately 125% and my ship/cargo scanner usage by approximately 2750%.


Catherine Laartii wrote:
because in many cases you don't have an extra weapon slot or the room to fit a neut or nos. This applies to many small t1 and faction ships in the game.
I often can't fit a small neut or NOS on a battlecruiser. I have recently taken to fitting small deadspace remote reps due to their cheapness but have never actually managed to make use of one.


yeah fitting would be easier than a cloak; around 15-20 range. The active scripted version would continuously use capacitor, so it'd be good for either a quick look or in situations where you don't have to worry about your long-term cap usage like if you have a booster or something.

What you're talking about is exactly what inspired me to talk about this; I think it's maddening that a whole slot on the ship goes to waste most of the time, and there aren't viable combat alternatives to things like neuts and nos when you don't have the available pg.

Sure a cloak is fun, but it penalizes your sensors. Salvagers are only useful AFTER a fight, and probe launchers are only useful for exploration, unless you have 200 CPU to fit a combat prober.
Donnachadh
United Allegiance of Undesirables
#10 - 2015-01-24 02:46:36 UTC
Mornak wrote:
so you'd want them with very small fitting-costs? it's quite a powerful tool you're offering with almost no downside.

Just a crazy thought in response.
It seems to me they would have a very large downside, as in you would be shooting them while they were waiting for the results of the scan. There would be more downside as you continue to shoot them while they waited for the proper ammo to load.
Since I do not partake of the PvP side of the game I am not sure that these downsides would be appropriate balancing forces but they are downsides and they could be rather significant ones.
Aqriue
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#11 - 2015-01-24 04:01:16 UTC
lol need a mod to assume common knowledge should be common. Assume enemy is buffer fit 90% of the time since its so easy to play with nearly even resist across the board and certain races are shield or armor, active buffer being a bit more difficult but easy to spot cause it has shiny graphics Roll and usually niche solo fighting....counter is just use more DPS. If your assuming honorable 1v1 you are doing it wrong anyway or you are so good you can handle more than one opponent picking on easy kills.

When EVE needs a mod to help you counter someone in battle, you are failing hard since it usually only takes a few kills or deaths depending on who is dying to learn where they are failing. On the other hand, freighters could use smaller cargo holds and less hitpoints to make the mod useless, more trips for the freighter pilot doing a boring job and easier kills for the ganker requiring less destroyers. Win/Win, more trips with more freight with more risk equaling out to more target availability, turn it into a lottery where you can't really lose since even an empty freighter will raise your isk efficiency Roll
Ix Method
Doomheim
#12 - 2015-01-24 11:15:31 UTC
Wouldn't be adverse to all such modules getting some sort of scriptable highslot mod. Data/Relic Analyzer in one? You then have the option or losing mid tank/cap or high. Cargo/Ship/Survey Scanner in one similarly.

Not a massive revolution or anything but would probably open up a few more newbro-friendly T1 ships for exploration and that.

Travelling at the speed of love.
Mornak
Exotic Dancers Union
Hatakani Trade Winds Combine
#13 - 2015-01-25 23:35:58 UTC
TL;DR:
I completely agree with OP that it's a shame to leave all those utility high-slots empty. But a ship-scanner is a very powerful tool and should therefor come at an appropriate price. Imho, easy to fit ship-scanners will make people more risk averse.

Catherine Laartii wrote:

The CPU reqs would be upped to be around 15-20 range, and the active scanning script would require continuous usage and continuous cap, so fitting costs would be balanced appropriately.

you wrote that this should be an option if no small neut/nos can be fitted. a small neut has a 8/8 fitting requirement. If it comes with at least twice the CPU requirement of a neut then it's another matter. My issue with your idea is/was only the lack of a downside.

Catherine Laartii wrote:

As you stated we already have this module, and a med slot IS a very valuable thing. Too valuable, in fact, to waste on an item like this. Things like points, webs, or more broadly a shield tank, are all to common and all to necessary for a 'utility' item like this that is actually useful. It's not an EWAR item, so for things like TDs or TPs that are used still have their own place in mid slots, while things like this fall more under utility like cloaks and probers do.

Your statement "[med-slot] Too valuable, in fact, to waste on an item like this." and your later statement "...how an enemy has their ship set up is extremely valuable intel..." somewhat contradict each other. i think the second statement is correct.

Catherine Laartii wrote:

While you make a valid point about experience being necessary to guess and pick out fittings in a fight, that argument by itself is self-defeating. Your ability to garner an idea about how someone's fit isn't a tool or special ability by any stretch of the imagination, and so by that logic the only useful thing that this scanner would do would be the active script, since we can *already* get a good idea for how people are fit as you say. The difference is that gaining exact and intimate knowledge of how an enemy has their ship set up is extremely valuable intel because that takes it a step further, and gives you good ideas on their capabilities beyond the short term.

i think it is a special ability, not of your ship nor your character, but of you as a pilot.
Couldn't your argument also be used to defend using aim-bot's in FPS? i mean you could aim yourself... the bot just does it more precise/faster.
You want to replace skill/experience of the pilot with a simple click of a button. This is not a problem for me as such, all i mean to say is that this must come with an appropriate downside. be it higher fitting-cost, longer cycle-time (like Donnachadh pointed out) or less range than the mid-slot module. Going the extra mile should bring you an advantage.

Catherine Laartii wrote:

This also has a wide range of uses in fleet as well; knowing what jammers are fit or how enemy logistics or ewar are set up would be immensely helpful. Being able to gauge capacitor amount over time also lets more 'experienced' pilots do exactly what you stated earlier in regards to using their noggin to guess what's going on, except it's just a step further with things like capacitor and dps.

In a fleet it's not so hard to sacrifice a med-slot. Imho the main advantage of this would be for small-scale/solo pvp.


The other thing about ship-scanner (be it mid- or high-slot) is that when fitted, a lot of people would fly even more risk-averse... which is not a good thing. If this becomes easy to fit and widely used, i must fear that most fleets would field them and only engage if they KNOW that they have a really good chance to win... as it is now, you have to gamble or at least take a certain risk sometimes.

Not knowing if the shiny ship 20k of the gate is a cyno-bait or just an idiot is part of the fun... if you want to know for sure then pay the price.