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CSM X - What are you voting for?

First post First post
Author
Reaver Glitterstim
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#141 - 2015-01-22 09:09:07 UTC
Seraph IX Basarab wrote:
Reaver Glitterstim wrote:
Actually, smaller/slower hotdrops will lead to more ratting carriers which will lead to more (in total) hotdrops.



I tackle your carrier in one ship, light a cyno. 5 guys jump through, each one has a cyno, 25 guys jump in. Each one has a cyno, 125 guys jump in....so it's a bad idea, but also a bad idea that wouldn't work.

Easy solution: delay before you can light a cyno after jumping to one.

Before you say something can't work, stop and ask yourself if you have closed off all of the possibilities. If you don't have special training in this field of mental brainstorming work, you're probably better off with the simple mantra: never say it's impossible.

FT Diomedes: "Reaver, sometimes I wonder what you are thinking when you sit down to post."

Frostys Virpio: "We have to give it to him that he does put more effort than the vast majority in his idea but damn does it sometime come out of nowhere."

Reaver Glitterstim
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#142 - 2015-01-22 09:22:06 UTC
Seraph IX Basarab wrote:
What?! That's a horrible argument. And who is "everyone?"

Perhaps not everyone, per se, but I'd figure a large percentage of the PVPers I know who have flown a covert ship would agree to this.



Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
Seraph IX Basarab wrote:
Because right now, it honestly just looks like someone that does pve complaining about someone doing pvp.


That's the TL;DR of their entire post history, dude. "playing the wrong game" has rarely fit anyone better.

Perhaps if you had been reading Jenshae's posting history, you'd notice she's come a long way. Where I once saw a lot of blind hatred toward nullsec, I now see a much more informed view. Jenshae was once a rookie but will perhaps someday be a bitter vet. I think you spend too much time assuming people never change and should perhaps check back once in a while before you make accusations about someone that might no longer be true. Also, constructive criticism is always many times more helpful than destructive criticism.

FT Diomedes: "Reaver, sometimes I wonder what you are thinking when you sit down to post."

Frostys Virpio: "We have to give it to him that he does put more effort than the vast majority in his idea but damn does it sometime come out of nowhere."

Jenshae Chiroptera
#143 - 2015-01-22 13:19:50 UTC  |  Edited by: Jenshae Chiroptera
Seraph IX Basarab wrote:
Once again, I would respectfully remind you that the burden of proof is on you as a CSM candidate to prove your point.
"The wheel is round!"
"No! No! No! I demand you waste your time to do a three year investigation with proof of it rolling down different hills, that you find a new way to calculate Pi and then prove to me how round it is compared to a square!"

That is how absurd this seems to me.
Reaver Glitterstim wrote:
Perhaps if you had been reading Jenshae's posting history, you'd notice ... blind hatred toward nullsec, I now see a much more informed view.
Quote:
"I sense great fear in you. You have hate. You have anger. But you don't use them."
"I can feel your anger, it gives you focus, makes you stronger."
"You have control of your fear, now release your anger, only your hatred can destroy me."
"I must hold onto the hate! It is the best tool for channeling my energies and controlling the force! "Twisted

Seriously, though, if I end up being one of the CSM, I need to hold onto a little bit of everything I can. Confusion, indignation and that annoyance that took me to the brink of deleting EVE forever; are some of the tools to empathise with newbies, for example.
(Maybe CCP should make some innuendo statement, such as, "Do not worry, it hurts the most the first time but soon you will enjoy it," as a pop up when someone dies to another player for the first time.

CCP - Building ant hills and magnifying glasses for fat kids

Not even once

EVE is becoming shallow and puerile; it will satisfy neither the veteran nor the "WoW" type crowd in the transition.

Jenshae Chiroptera
#144 - 2015-01-22 14:48:19 UTC  |  Edited by: Jenshae Chiroptera
I think this also applies.
Leannor wrote:
Calexis Atredies wrote:
I'm going to need a bigger bucket, the amount of null-bear tears is excessive.
Cloaking to gather intel is a legitimate tactic, why complain about tactical game play?
I don't think anyone is complaining about that.

This thread is about those are are not 'gathering' intel, because they're at work, watching telly, ... doing anything but looking at their screen all day.
Yes there might be the odd exception of a guy who actually 'seems' afk, but is actually dedicated to watching a screen all day to gather intel on the system he's cloaked in. But, that kind of player is quite rare.

By your statement above, you seem to be having a different discussion about wether cloaks should be allowed. (Which clearly they should). What most people seem to agree on, is that (like any other undocked activity) it should not be 100% safe, which it currently is.


Reaver Glitterstim wrote:
Seraph IX Basarab wrote:
Reaver Glitterstim wrote:
Actually, smaller/slower hotdrops will lead to more ratting carriers which will lead to more (in total) hotdrops.
I tackle your carrier in one ship, light a cyno. 5 guys jump through, each one has a cyno, 25 guys jump in. Each one has a cyno, 125 guys jump in....so it's a bad idea, but also a bad idea that wouldn't work.

Easy solution: delay before you can light a cyno after jumping to one.
Before you say something can't work, stop and ask yourself if you have closed off all of the possibilities. If you don't have special training in this field of mental brainstorming work, you're probably better off with the simple mantra: never say it's impossible.
Actually, there is a pretty simple solution to what Seraph believes would happen of exponential cynos - cool down timer before someone that just jumped until they can generate a point for someone to jump to them.

CCP - Building ant hills and magnifying glasses for fat kids

Not even once

EVE is becoming shallow and puerile; it will satisfy neither the veteran nor the "WoW" type crowd in the transition.

Dradis Aulmais
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#145 - 2015-01-22 15:07:41 UTC
Cloaked inte gatherer is rare? Where's the proof? And how is someone who is actually AFK going to hurt you? I don't see the argument here. We are arguing what ifs. The AFK cloaky camper argument is like arguing with code over ganking. If your scared to play because someone is cloaked then he is doing his job.

Dradis Aulmais, Federal Attorney Number 54896

Free The Scope Three

Seraph IX Basarab
Outer Path
#146 - 2015-01-22 15:14:29 UTC
Reaver Glitterstim wrote:
Easy solution: delay before you can light a cyno after jumping to one.

Before you say something can't work, stop and ask yourself if you have closed off all of the possibilities. If you don't have special training in this field of mental brainstorming work, you're probably better off with the simple mantra: never say it's impossible.


Congrats, you've just ruined a mechanic completely. You'll find no one to support this except other carebears. By all means go ask literally any 0.0 nullsec candidate or current csm member since you have "special training in the field of mental brainstorming work." Go on i'll wait.

Reaver Glitterstim wrote:
Perhaps not everyone, per se, but I'd figure a large percentage of the PVPers I know who have flown a covert ship would agree to this.


Are most of them in TEST Alliance? Straight

Jenshae Chiroptera wrote:
"The wheel is round!"
"No! No! No! I demand you waste your time to do a three year investigation with proof of it rolling down different hills, that you find a new way to calculate Pi and then prove to me how round it is compared to a square!"

That is how absurd this seems to me.



If it's so easy to do as proving the wheel is round, surely even you can do that. It's not a crazy idea to back up your statements with actual facts.
Reaver Glitterstim
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#147 - 2015-01-22 15:35:30 UTC  |  Edited by: Reaver Glitterstim
Seraph IX Basarab wrote:
Reaver Glitterstim wrote:
Easy solution: delay before you can light a cyno after jumping to one.

Before you say something can't work, stop and ask yourself if you have closed off all of the possibilities. If you don't have special training in this field of mental brainstorming work, you're probably better off with the simple mantra: never say it's impossible.


Congrats, you've just ruined a mechanic completely. You'll find no one to support this except other carebears. By all means go ask literally any 0.0 nullsec candidate or current csm member since you have "special training in the field of mental brainstorming work." Go on i'll wait.

I only want a pilot jump limit and re-cyno delay on covert cynos, but that's beside the point. I was pointing out that you were being to quick to seal the idea off as not possibly working. Go ahead and disagree with it, or pick out problems with it. But you should slow down a bit before dropping accusations that it's ill-conceived from the ground up and couldn't possibly be further balanced to work decently.


Seraph IX Basarab wrote:
Reaver Glitterstim wrote:
Perhaps not everyone, per se, but I'd figure a large percentage of the PVPers I know who have flown a covert ship would agree to this.


Are most of them in TEST Alliance? Straight

I hope not. Most of us are able to find ways to die even while cloaked.


Seraph IX Basarab wrote:
Once again, I would respectfully remind you that the burden of proof is on you as a CSM candidate to prove your point.

The burden of proof always lies on the one making an extraordinary claim, regardless of political position. source

I'm not really sure who was making extraordinary claims as I can't really tell what you guys were going on about for sure.

FT Diomedes: "Reaver, sometimes I wonder what you are thinking when you sit down to post."

Frostys Virpio: "We have to give it to him that he does put more effort than the vast majority in his idea but damn does it sometime come out of nowhere."

Seraph IX Basarab
Outer Path
#148 - 2015-01-22 15:59:34 UTC
Reaver Glitterstim wrote:
I only want a pilot jump limit and re-cyno delay on covert cynos, but that's beside the point. I was pointing out that you were being to quick to seal the idea off as not possibly working. Go ahead and disagree with it, or pick out problems with it. But you should slow down a bit before dropping accusations that it's ill-conceived from the ground up and couldn't possibly be further balanced to work decently.


If anyone needs local numerical superiority it's covert cyno ships that are much less tanky than conventional ships. It isn't that i didn't think through the possibilities, it's that I did and still saw how bad they were.


Reaver Glitterstim wrote:
The burden of proof always lies on the one making an extraordinary claim, regardless of political position. source

I'm not really sure who was making extraordinary claims as I can't really tell what you guys were going on about for sure.


Since the current game mechanics are the norm, and Jen wants to change them, I'd imagine he's making the extraordinary claims. When slowcats were rebalanced, when blaptitans were rebalanced, when drakes and canes were rebalanaced, people provided stats to back their argument.
Dradis Aulmais
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#149 - 2015-01-22 16:07:39 UTC
I think we are getting away from Jen's campaign.

Dradis Aulmais, Federal Attorney Number 54896

Free The Scope Three

Jenn aSide
Worthless Carebears
Pandemic Horde
#150 - 2015-01-22 20:35:32 UTC
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
Your post history is full of making gamebreakingly bad suggestions -AND A WHOLE LOT OF VICTIMHOOD THINKING-. And little else.

-1.


No need for me to have original thought when i can just add to Kaarous' Big smile Can't speak for the rest of the pve community, but -1 from this one as well.
Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
#151 - 2015-01-23 00:03:24 UTC
Reaver Glitterstim wrote:

Perhaps if you had been reading Jenshae's posting history, you'd notice she's come a long way.


Yeah, she used to hate nullsec, now she hates PvP of any kind. I have seen her recently speak out against several things, and the only thing they had in common is that they all enable PvP of some kind.

I see no merit whatsoever in their candidacy. So here's my endorsement. If you don't hate PvP of every kind, don't vote for the OP.


Quote:

I think you spend too much time assuming people never change and should perhaps check back once in a while before you make accusations about someone that might no longer be true.


And I think a good player can never grow out of a bad attitude. And I still see that in spades.


Quote:

Also, constructive criticism is always many times more helpful than destructive criticism.


But so much less fun. Nevermind that this is not an F&I suggestion, no matter how much it looks like one. This is the CSM campaign. "constructive" criticism is quite simply not called for here. Especially towards someone who rabidly refuses to answer any criticism with anything other than summary dismissals.

"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."

One of ours, ten of theirs.

Best Meltdown Ever.

Reaver Glitterstim
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#152 - 2015-01-23 00:17:17 UTC
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
This is the CSM campaign. "constructive" criticism is quite simply not called for here.

correction: not required, but it is recommended

But I'm tired of dealing with ignorant folks and you have no excuse as we've been down this road enough times before, you and I. So I'll suffice to say that your accusations of Jenshae are in fact factually inaccurate as is demonstrated by her more recent posts as well as her edits to the original CSM 10 candidacy platform which you would know if you had read any of it.

FT Diomedes: "Reaver, sometimes I wonder what you are thinking when you sit down to post."

Frostys Virpio: "We have to give it to him that he does put more effort than the vast majority in his idea but damn does it sometime come out of nowhere."

Reaver Glitterstim
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#153 - 2015-01-23 00:31:33 UTC  |  Edited by: Reaver Glitterstim
Seraph IX Basarab wrote:
If anyone needs local numerical superiority it's covert cyno ships that are much less tanky than conventional ships. It isn't that i didn't think through the possibilities, it's that I did and still saw how bad they were.

But they can warp while cloaked. Main reason I think covert cyno hotdrops should be limited in size is because they so easily evade intel that you never know if they're coming except when the system is completely free of non-blues. It seems unreasonable to me that one red in local could potentially turn into 250 reds in an instant and not at a gate or other beacon visible on the overview, and there's no way for you to calculate the probability with available intel.

I would have limited the size to 10 ships per covert cyno, which is plenty enough for a good gank and to hold ground while waiting out a brief timer of, say, 1 minute until they can light a regular cyno or more covert cynos. Also, easy way around the limitation is to bring multiple covert ops ships through the gates in the first place. Depending on how that pans out, might have to limit to 5 per covert cyno after all, but I'm optimistic about it.




A brief summary of views expressed in this thread, for comparison:


Jenshae Chiroptera: The ease of forcing PVP upon an unwilling participant should be balanced with the unwilling participant's ability to prevent PVP. Both parties should have to work toward their goal, and both should be given the tools to do so.

Most responders: We don't want you on CSM because you are anti-PVP and you want themepark gameplay, but this is a PVP game and themepark gameplay should be marginalized to a strong degree.

Most supporters: Themepark gameplay is currently over-marginalized and while PVP is acceptable, we want enough safety to make PVE activities outside of highsec even viable at all.

Reaver Glitterstim: Jenshae's proposals have undergone many edits and reiterations since the original, and I recommend you all to take a look at what has changed. While I am only partially in support of Jenshae's candidacy platform, that support is growing quickly and I am eager to see what she comes up with next. I suspect Jenshae will make an excellent CSM candidate in a later election.

FT Diomedes: "Reaver, sometimes I wonder what you are thinking when you sit down to post."

Frostys Virpio: "We have to give it to him that he does put more effort than the vast majority in his idea but damn does it sometime come out of nowhere."

Jenshae Chiroptera
#154 - 2015-01-23 00:38:09 UTC
Dradis Aulmais wrote:
I think we are getting away from Jen's campaign.

Activity draws attention and helps spread the campaign thread and message.
Dradis Aulmais wrote:
And how is someone who is actually AFK going to hurt you? I don't see the argument here.
The AFK cloaker:
- is perfectly safe
- has the potential to drop at any moment
- can not be evicted or hunted even in your home system.

I am looking for ways that they need to play actively to get the benefits of what they do. They shouldn't get a free lunch in our home.

(Other posts, I will read fully and respond after some sleep).

CCP - Building ant hills and magnifying glasses for fat kids

Not even once

EVE is becoming shallow and puerile; it will satisfy neither the veteran nor the "WoW" type crowd in the transition.

Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
#155 - 2015-01-23 00:41:31 UTC
Reaver Glitterstim wrote:
which you would know if you had read any of it.


I did. I also reported her posting here in the first place, since she was doing this as a deliberate farce to advocate for the dissolution of the CSM.

And since you went ahead and reposted a TL;DR, it turns out I was right.

Quote:

Jenshae Chiroptera: The ease of forcing PVP upon an unwilling participant should be balanced with the unwilling participant's ability to prevent PVP. Both parties should have to work toward their goal, and both should be given the tools to do so.


My rebuttal.

Go back to WoW. PvP is a fundamental part of EVE, non consensual PvP included. There exist already more than enough means for prevention of PvP, in all areas of space. Well, that is, if you use your whole ass.

The OP's candidacy exists solely to campaign for the right of people to play the game deliberately incorrectly and still be safe from harm.

If you want a themepark, go play one. Stop trying to shove that distasteful thing into my sandbox game, it is most unwelcome.

"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."

One of ours, ten of theirs.

Best Meltdown Ever.

Reaver Glitterstim
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#156 - 2015-01-23 00:44:04 UTC
Jenshae Chiroptera wrote:
AFK cloaker:
- is perfectly safe
- has the potential to drop at any moment
- can not be evicted or hunted even in your home system.

I am looking for ways that they need to play actively to get the benefits of what they do. They shouldn't get a free lunch in our home.

Well said. An excellent example of some of the hypocrisy we see in common viewpoints about themepark gameplay. If it is wrong for PVEers to avoid PVP with no ability to be pursued, then it is wrong for PVPers to avoid PVP with no ability to be pursued.

FT Diomedes: "Reaver, sometimes I wonder what you are thinking when you sit down to post."

Frostys Virpio: "We have to give it to him that he does put more effort than the vast majority in his idea but damn does it sometime come out of nowhere."

Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
#157 - 2015-01-23 00:47:14 UTC
Reaver Glitterstim wrote:

Well said. An excellent example of some of the hypocrisy we see in common viewpoints about themepark gameplay.


It's an excellent example of an obvious strawman, anyway.

Quote:

If it is wrong for PVEers to avoid PVP with no ability to be pursued, then it is wrong for PVPers to avoid PVP with no ability to be pursued.


A PvE player can just as easily cloak in a safe. Nothing prevents them from doing this, it is not some exclusive activity, nor do you make money while doing so. In fact, you can't do a whole lot of anything.

What PvE players want, on the other hand, is to be safe while performing lucrative activities.

That is 100% unacceptable.

"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."

One of ours, ten of theirs.

Best Meltdown Ever.

Jenshae Chiroptera
#158 - 2015-01-23 01:16:29 UTC  |  Edited by: Jenshae Chiroptera
Reaver Glitterstim wrote:
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
Seraph IX Basarab wrote:
Because right now, it honestly just looks like someone that does pve complaining about someone doing pvp.
That's the TL;DR of their entire post history, dude. "playing the wrong game" has rarely fit anyone better.

Perhaps if you had been reading Jenshae's posting history, you'd notice she's come a long way. Where I once saw a lot of blind hatred toward nullsec, I now see a much more informed view. Jenshae was once a rookie but will perhaps someday be a bitter vet. I think you spend too much time assuming people never change and should perhaps check back once in a while before you make accusations about someone that might no longer be true. Also, constructive criticism is always many times more helpful than destructive criticism.

This caught my eye before I closed the thread.

Reaver, waste no more time, energy or your finely crafted words on Kaarous. (I have his posts hidden, told him openly that he is just a waste of my time and asked him to stop following me around the forums like a sulky child because I got his "Coup de grĂ¢ce"reversed).
By his own admission, he is here for forum PVP. He does nothing to forward ideas, develop them or try and take EVE as a whole forward.

CCP - Building ant hills and magnifying glasses for fat kids

Not even once

EVE is becoming shallow and puerile; it will satisfy neither the veteran nor the "WoW" type crowd in the transition.

Reaver Glitterstim
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#159 - 2015-01-23 01:56:02 UTC
Here I will heed your wishes, but my normal response is to adamantly continue to treat all criticisms with a serious, honest, and direct tone and give them reasonable attention as if they were meaningful posts, whether or not I suspect them to be.

FT Diomedes: "Reaver, sometimes I wonder what you are thinking when you sit down to post."

Frostys Virpio: "We have to give it to him that he does put more effort than the vast majority in his idea but damn does it sometime come out of nowhere."

Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
#160 - 2015-01-23 02:03:35 UTC
Reaver Glitterstim wrote:
Here I will heed your wishes, but my normal response is to adamantly continue to treat all criticisms with a serious, honest, and direct tone and give them reasonable attention as if they were meaningful posts, whether or not I suspect them to be.


Which is why you, of the two, have my respect. The person you're adhering to on the other hand displays astonishing intellectual dishonesty. Even Dinsdale was better than this.

"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."

One of ours, ten of theirs.

Best Meltdown Ever.