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+1 on the Svipul needing falloff instead of optimal bonus.

On the topic of projectile ammo: One issue I can see with adding falloff bonuses to ammo is that CCP might then make short range high damage ammo chop your falloff range down as well since all other high damage ammo shortens the gun's range. If they did projectile ammo like other turret ammo, but with falloff included that would probably mean by their poor logic that high damage ammo gets a falloff cut, medium range ammo has no range loss (so is at previous high damage ammo's falloff range on AC's), and then we would also get long range ammo which might not be too bad. It would suck to be using medium range ammo at current short range ammo distances. I know there are logical ways to upgrade the ammo and prevent this, but this is CCP we are talking about here.

The catch there is, certain ships are meant to be arty boats while others are really meant to be AC boats. AC's are really meant to get in there and brawl and were never meant to be longer range than "in your face"

As much as I like the transformer-style verticalness, the bonuses on this ship are just... wrong.

The optimal bonus is only useful for artillery, so right off the bat you're forcing people into a single fitting direction if they want to make the most of the bonuses.

So now we have an arty boat with only 2 useful modes: propulsion and sharpshooter.

Sharpshooter mode gives you a ship with worse tracking and firepower than a basic Thrasher, so I don't see it being used much except for the extra lock range.

Defense mode seems almost completely useless. Firstly it assumes a MWD fitted, but also, if you're not scrammed there's absolutely no reason to not be kiting in one of the other 2 modes.

Overall, when you compare this to the Confessor with it's universally useful bonuses, the Svipul looks like a piece of junk. I really hope that it works better in practice than it looks on paper, because I enjoy Minmatar ships, but I'm not very hopeful about this one.

People with more isks then sense.

I for one prefer range and use Arty more than anything else and yet I see no point in getting this ship. For one the bonuses like mentioned above are off don't want to say wrong since some people probably better than me at fitting ships can make it work but me nope. I will be flying around in a 100 mil bulls eye.


I don't mind the transforming ability of the tactical destroyers and watching the confessor change was lots of fun. in a pilot vs pilot skirmish with a confessor we got to see just how a good fit on one is deadly. However seeing the bonuses and such on the minmi tactical destroyer I am at a loss. from where I am sitting being a young pilot unless you have maxed skills running entire T2 guns and mods along with piloting skills this ship will be useless.

Last thing to mention why make it transform like that. feels like my ship is going to sprout arms and pull a fusion sword to hack and slash my opponents.

So your whole tirade says pretty much what I said, only I'm actually aware that once T1 long range ammo actually gives a significant range bonus, Barrage will become further marginalized. So all your post accomplished is to reveal that you didn't even read mine but apparently agree with it despite you believing you disagree.

50-60, I don't know why you think it would be 100. It may shock you to know people use interdictors for things besides bubbles, so yes brawlers will be used. The reason people are only going to fit arty is it is weaker than a thrasher bonus wise.

Wouldn't reduction to MWD sig and the inertia modifier be better the other way around?

About the optimal range bonus discussion, a couple points.

Projectile Flavour = damage selection+falloff+no cap <=VS=> lower base damage+long reload+mediocre tracking.

What makes falloff unique and very useful under certain circumstances is that without switching ammo damage scales up magically as you get closer to the target. This matches nicely with the long reload of projectile turrets.


Artillery: range bonus or falloff bonus?

Neither is "best" for artillery, both just depend on the strength. But falloff is always more versatile since it allows damage selection with artillery you do not get with an optimal bonus.

To make projectiles true to themselves, It makes no sense for any minmatar ship to get an optimal bonus. A jaguar with a falloff bonus would be a much more fun ship to fly for instance. Same is true for the muninn.


Interaction between ammo bonuses and guns

T1 ammo and their bonuses have needed attention for a long time. The changes to T1 projectile ammo gave hope, but in the end fell short.

Two reasons:
(1) For instance with small artillery at range the window where medium range ammo outperforms close range ammo is non-existent. At ~19km you do equal damage with emp and depleted uranium. But because you're bouncing in range and out of range, emp is more useful. You do get a bonus to tracking, but that still does not allow you to orbit your target and hence the bonus becomes moot.

(2) Because long range ammo gives an optimal bonus and minmatar guns have lousy optimal, you get absurdly sad dps at range and you do not even get much range(!). The tiny tracking bonus is again pretty much useless.

As others have pointed out already, the optimal bonus on AC is wasted, while the medium range tracking bonus can be quite useful, but only if otherwise you cannot hit your target at all.

Three suggestions
(1) No more optimal range bonuses for projectiles. Can we have some racial flavour, please??
(2) T1 minmatar ammo is reduced to two tiers from three: close-to-medium range no-falloff bonus high damage ammo and medium-to-long high falloff bonus with reduced damage ammo. Note: the falloff bonus needs to be quite big to offset the base dps loss.
(3) T2 minmatar ammo becomes "dumb" ammo: it has a selection of damage types and marginally higher base damage than T1. It becomes the ideal choice when you're facing an opponent with a very even resist profile or cannot predict the resist profile (or are too lazy to switch ammo..).

Advantages
- projectile guns are fundamentally different from other guns, but in a straightforward uncomplicated way (sounds Minmatar to me..)
- ammo bonuses are equally useful for artillery and AC
- damage selection at close range and medium range
- damage scales according to range without a need to reload

Disadvantages
- projectile base damage is somewhat lower than other races
- tracking becomes/remains a minmatar weakness, so you need to be careful how you use minmatar speed
- minmatar do not have close, medium and long range, just close-medium and medium-long (half advantage, half disadvantage really)

First of all, how about you stop assuming that anyone who dares to disagree with you just didn't read your post.

Second, I disagree with your original post because while I'm very well aware that improving the other ammos would marginalize barrage by comparison, I don't see it as a bad thing. More ammo to choose from = less reliance on one ammo type = good thing.

Do not drop optimal bonus. Arty doesnt need to suffer the same dps cliff that acs do (lowish optimal, high falloff). Thrashers are optimal bonused, and that doesnt stop people throwing acs on them and brawling with good success.

The best middle ground is giving bonus to optimal and falloff. Either flat 10% bonus to falloff and optimal, or 5% optimal and 10% falloff bonus. If being used as a scram kiter (which arty is good at) optimal is much better than falloff. If being used as kiter, optimal and falloff will make arty project halfway decently to match sniper mode bonuses.