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AGh... This is why I hate doing markets.

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Herdo
Radix Financial
#21 - 2015-01-20 20:50:42 UTC
I'm going to go against the grain here and say these "deep undercuters" are no better than the "minerals I mine for free" crowd.

These theories work in a vacuum, but at the end of the day it suffers from one major flaw. It gives way to much credit towards the intelligence of EVE players.

This may work in very small stations, but good luck trying that in Amarr or even Hek.

The other week I was reselling some ships in a smaller trade hub. Comfortably reselling them for a near 150m profit, or something like 25% markup. I was buying and reselling 1 every 3 or 4 days so it was a slow but steady return, and I was competing with 4 or 5 others who were probably selling about the same.

Then one day Mr. Deep Undercuts comes along and decides he's going to "capture the market". So he lists his 5 ships for no more than 3% over buy price.

"This will drive the competitors out!" he says to himself, gloating over his ingenious plan for market domination.

Wrong.

Traders who can't be bothered to remember what they acquired the ship for and panic sellers updated their orders to beat his. I can't blame them. This guy listed a weeks worth of hulls and at some point you just have to say "Screw it I'm out".

That was almost 2 weeks ago and the market hasn't recovered. In fact it's gone down further. This guy could have happily joined in on the fun, reselling a couple by now for a few hundred million in profits, but instead he decided he was Warren Buffet Jr. and is now probably selling his stock at a loss.

I have no idea what he acquired them for, but I know I picked them up at Jita sell prices which was at about the buy price in the station I was selling them. What's his end game? Once he "drives everyone out", how long does he think he will have the market to himself? I'd give it a day before he's competing with 3 or 4 others, the same as if he were to have listed reasonable sell orders from the start.

Hey it's that guys time and money, and he can play the game anyway he chooses, and maybe he is selling them at a decent profit, but just like the "minerals I mine for free" crowd, lost profit is still a loss in my book.

These people are no different than the "I bought and resold this item for 1000% ROI!. Yes it took me 3 months to sell it, but it's still free money!" Sure it is kid, and the minerals you mine are free!
Whang'Lo
Cosmically Irrelevant
#22 - 2015-01-21 11:13:53 UTC
Hal Morsh wrote:
I had the same pessimistic feeling about EVE pvp (as if it was murphies law online) that I did about markets, which is why I never bothered to dabble in them. Recently I discovered an implant not really being sold, but is usefull. So I nabbed a few and sold them for about 1.6 mill each. About 5 a week and bought them for 375,000 in the first place is a small profit, and this is saturating areas, by placing a few in different regions so they'd be seen on a few markets.

I recently checked back to place a few more, and some knucklehead has placed 40 of them on the market for 400,000 isk. Not even trying to make money there bud? If you sell 5 avg a week entirely taking out the LP. You make 125,000 isk a week, and now i'm definitely not making anything.

I don't know if to call this min/maxing ? or?? I don't even know what to call it. It's not like i even told anybody I was selling anything, let alone doing this.


The solution here is quite simple. Buy him out. He's not a lowballer, he's your new supplier, he even delivered the
stuff for you.

[u]A Paranoid is just someone with all the facts - William Burroughs[/u]
Julius Rigel
#23 - 2015-01-21 12:24:56 UTC
Herdo wrote:
What's his end game? Once he "drives everyone out", how long does he think he will have the market to himself?
Hypothetically, his goal could be to pick up a stack of cheap product for about buy price by luring a few orders down there and buying them out to relist.

Either way, if your margin is 25% and he's listing them for 3, then you just found yourself some very fast (albeit a little bit less profitable) stock for your trading, and you didn't even have to go to Jita to... well, what Whang'Lo said.

Do YOU like to undock?
Sabriz Adoudel
Move along there is nothing here
#24 - 2015-01-21 12:32:00 UTC
Yourmoney Mywallet wrote:
Vyl Vit wrote:
Hi. I market. Yeah. All marketing skills to V. Be very jealous. To all who are thinking about doing this very rich and dynamic end of EVE, before you begin, take a look at it. Take a close look. The market does have a life. It has tendencies, characteristics and trends. It has a regular group of "players", and it has dabblers, and one-time failures like the OP here.

For example, take an item you find is used a lot, such as an ammo type, and over a period of time, call it up in your market panel and just examine it. Look at selling prices - under that buying prices. Look at locations, amounts of the item, amounts of contracts offering the items. LOOK AT IT ALL. Then follow it for a week. While you're doing this GOOGLE. GOOGLE. GOOGLE. READ READ READ. There's TONS of information out there. It's enviable and it strikes me with PRIDE that I play EVE!

THEN...PLAN YOUR FIRST MOVE. Be prepared for some trial and error. And, believe, you're going to be thinking long and hard before you come up with an innovation. EVE has some real experts at this. (I hope to be one, too!)

This is all fine and dandy until you come up against the "I mined my minerals myself, so they're free"-crowd. No amount of research can counter that level of idiocy.



Minerals I Mine Are Free (MIMIF) people are idiots, but they are potentially useful idiots.

As for deep undercutting: Some PVP is about short-term personal gain (you have modules, I want). Some PVP is about long term gain (I want to promote a mining permit product, and I need to make an example of someone to drive purchases of my product).

And some PVP is about saying "f you, and f the horse you rode in on".

Market PVP has the same dynamics as starship combat PVP.

I support the New Order and CODE. alliance. www.minerbumping.com
Sabriz Adoudel
Move along there is nothing here
#25 - 2015-01-21 12:39:49 UTC
Herdo wrote:
I'm going to go against the grain here and say these "deep undercuters" are no better than the "minerals I mine for free" crowd.

These theories work in a vacuum, but at the end of the day it suffers from one major flaw. It gives way to much credit towards the intelligence of EVE players.

This may work in very small stations, but good luck trying that in Amarr or even Hek.

The other week I was reselling some ships in a smaller trade hub. Comfortably reselling them for a near 150m profit, or something like 25% markup. I was buying and reselling 1 every 3 or 4 days so it was a slow but steady return, and I was competing with 4 or 5 others who were probably selling about the same.

Then one day Mr. Deep Undercuts comes along and decides he's going to "capture the market". So he lists his 5 ships for no more than 3% over buy price.

"This will drive the competitors out!" he says to himself, gloating over his ingenious plan for market domination.

Wrong.

Traders who can't be bothered to remember what they acquired the ship for and panic sellers updated their orders to beat his. I can't blame them. This guy listed a weeks worth of hulls and at some point you just have to say "Screw it I'm out".

That was almost 2 weeks ago and the market hasn't recovered. In fact it's gone down further. This guy could have happily joined in on the fun, reselling a couple by now for a few hundred million in profits, but instead he decided he was Warren Buffet Jr. and is now probably selling his stock at a loss.

I have no idea what he acquired them for, but I know I picked them up at Jita sell prices which was at about the buy price in the station I was selling them. What's his end game? Once he "drives everyone out", how long does he think he will have the market to himself? I'd give it a day before he's competing with 3 or 4 others, the same as if he were to have listed reasonable sell orders from the start.

Hey it's that guys time and money, and he can play the game anyway he chooses, and maybe he is selling them at a decent profit, but just like the "minerals I mine for free" crowd, lost profit is still a loss in my book.

These people are no different than the "I bought and resold this item for 1000% ROI!. Yes it took me 3 months to sell it, but it's still free money!" Sure it is kid, and the minerals you mine are free!



Let's take one item I occasionally trade, Item X.

Item X has a typical market price of 1130m, is non-trivial to transport, and has single figure daily turnover in each trade hub (maybe low two figures in Jita).

If I see Item X for sale in Jita at 1060m but at 1225m in Dodixie, I will buy it and pay a useful idiot to haul it to Dodi for me. But I won't post it at 1224999999.99 in Dodi, where I'll be undercut in minutes. Instead, I'll post it at 1210m or even 1200m. Most of my competition won't undercut that, and if they do, I counterundercut by 10m.

And if someone else is doing the same - I will undercut them super-deep. I have no issue going to 1080m in Dodi (a small loss once hauling fees and taxes are counted) if it discourages my rival from remaining in this market.

I support the New Order and CODE. alliance. www.minerbumping.com
Agent Unknown
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#26 - 2015-01-21 14:19:37 UTC
I've occasionally see items be 0.01 isk'd down to 0.01 above buy orders...those are the markets I'll stay away from as after broker's fees there's no profit there.

If someone undercuts you so much to reduce their profit to near-zero, buy them out and relist at your normal markup. Free supply as others have mentioned!

Buy orders are a bit trickier, but usually leaving the market until those buy orders fill (and they will if they're considerably higher than average) works.
Sabriz Adoudel
Move along there is nothing here
#27 - 2015-01-23 00:20:03 UTC
Agent Unknown wrote:
I've occasionally see items be 0.01 isk'd down to 0.01 above buy orders...those are the markets I'll stay away from as after broker's fees there's no profit there.

If someone undercuts you so much to reduce their profit to near-zero, buy them out and relist at your normal markup. Free supply as others have mentioned!

Buy orders are a bit trickier, but usually leaving the market until those buy orders fill (and they will if they're considerably higher than average) works.


When it's my buy order at (say) 16m, I want a lot of the item, and the first sell order is a large order, I do like posting one of the item for sale at 16000000.01 .

Sometimes the big block order undercuts me by 0.01 and in doing so dumps their stock on me. Doesn't happen often but it's +EV to try.

I support the New Order and CODE. alliance. www.minerbumping.com
Jerry T Pepridge
Meta Game Analysis and Investment INC.
#28 - 2015-01-23 09:14:19 UTC  |  Edited by: Jerry T Pepridge
Agent Unknown wrote:
I've occasionally see items be 0.01 isk'd down to 0.01 above buy orders...those are the markets I'll stay away from as after broker's fees there's no profit there.

If someone undercuts you so much to reduce their profit to near-zero, buy them out and relist at your normal markup. Free supply as others have mentioned!

Buy orders are a bit trickier, but usually leaving the market until those buy orders fill (and they will if they're considerably higher than average) works.


thats what happens when someone sells an item priced to the top buy order (right click sell default amount) with it set to 3 months (anything other than immediate) and sells more than the buy order can handle.

it auto lists at the 0.01 price of the buy order.

@JerryTPepridge
u3pog
Ministerstvo na otbranata
Ore No More
#29 - 2015-01-27 21:42:39 UTC
Sabriz Adoudel wrote:



Let's take one item I occasionally trade, Item X.

Item X has a typical market price of 1130m, is non-trivial to transport, and has single figure daily turnover in each trade hub (maybe low two figures in Jita).

If I see Item X for sale in Jita at 1060m but at 1225m in Dodixie, I will buy it and pay a useful idiot to haul it to Dodi for me. But I won't post it at 1224999999.99 in Dodi, where I'll be undercut in minutes. Instead, I'll post it at 1210m or even 1200m. Most of my competition won't undercut that, and if they do, I counterundercut by 10m.

And if someone else is doing the same - I will undercut them super-deep. I have no issue going to 1080m in Dodi (a small loss once hauling fees and taxes are counted) if it discourages my rival from remaining in this market.


Chances of success are very low, as no matter how much you undercut super-deep there's always some panic seller/moron who will undercut you just to feel "the winner" . Sometimes I let people undercut as much as they want and I keep my sell price solid, another time I need the ISK to invest it somewhere else, cause the longer I keep it locked the more I might lose from not utilizing the money.
I too often wondered about what these people selling 0.01 above sell price are thinking, but I guess I'll never quite understand their logic. They could have sold the items to the top buyer instead, but maybe they didn't want to "feed" the traders, but instead sell to the other folks, although traders might as well buy all their stock and relist it.

Another time I've wondered why people follow one silly "undercuter" like a mindless zombie following the smell of a fresh meat and eating all their profit , but then I remind myself of my old times when I had almost no liquid cash and I had to sell asap, so I can re-invest some ISK back...
Sabriz Adoudel
Move along there is nothing here
#30 - 2015-01-27 22:31:35 UTC
u3pog wrote:
Sabriz Adoudel wrote:



Let's take one item I occasionally trade, Item X.

Item X has a typical market price of 1130m, is non-trivial to transport, and has single figure daily turnover in each trade hub (maybe low two figures in Jita).

If I see Item X for sale in Jita at 1060m but at 1225m in Dodixie, I will buy it and pay a useful idiot to haul it to Dodi for me. But I won't post it at 1224999999.99 in Dodi, where I'll be undercut in minutes. Instead, I'll post it at 1210m or even 1200m. Most of my competition won't undercut that, and if they do, I counterundercut by 10m.

And if someone else is doing the same - I will undercut them super-deep. I have no issue going to 1080m in Dodi (a small loss once hauling fees and taxes are counted) if it discourages my rival from remaining in this market.


Chances of success are very low, as no matter how much you undercut super-deep there's always some panic seller/moron who will undercut you just to feel "the winner" . Sometimes I let people undercut as much as they want and I keep my sell price solid, another time I need the ISK to invest it somewhere else, cause the longer I keep it locked the more I might lose from not utilizing the money.
I too often wondered about what these people selling 0.01 above sell price are thinking, but I guess I'll never quite understand their logic. They could have sold the items to the top buyer instead, but maybe they didn't want to "feed" the traders, but instead sell to the other folks, although traders might as well buy all their stock and relist it.

Another time I've wondered why people follow one silly "undercuter" like a mindless zombie following the smell of a fresh meat and eating all their profit , but then I remind myself of my old times when I had almost no liquid cash and I had to sell asap, so I can re-invest some ISK back...


It depends here upon who is selling the item. You need to know who might own the item without wanting it.

For the item I am referencing, it's a player-produced item with a low markup and not lootable under any common circumstance. So the only people who own the item without wanting it generally intentionally constructed it for profitable resale, and usually will not undercut their production cost unless they are desparate for some reason.

For a different item in the same price range (say A-type EANMs), explorers, people that have looted supercarrier wrecks and incursion gankers quite often come into possession of the item without wanting it and with no psychological barriers (recouping sunk costs) to lowering their price on it. On these, your argument holds.

I support the New Order and CODE. alliance. www.minerbumping.com
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