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ORE mining battleship - more fitting versatility, less mining output!

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Reaver Glitterstim
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#41 - 2015-01-21 07:14:05 UTC
Bronson Hughes wrote:
Reaver Glitterstim wrote:
Why should mining ships be so vastly more pidgeon-holed than everything else?

Because they are mining ships. There are only so many ways to mine. There are far more ways to fight. Hence, the greater variety in combat ships.
You're equivalating mining and combat. I would equivalate industry with combat perhaps, while mining is a small role, much like black ops, for instance. Why, then, is a Black Ops battleship able to fit lots of weapons and other things when all it needs to perform its role is a covert jump drive and the ability to fit a cloaking device and covert jump portal generator? Answer: because it might get into combat. Will it normally get into combat? Very rarely. But does the pilot wish to be prepared for it? Of course! Does the pilot have the option to choose not to fit for combat? Also yes!

Bronson Hughes wrote:
Your proposed battleship class mining ship doesn't follow any kind of logical progression:

1. No other ORE ship has bonuses to module-based weapons.
2. Without any ORE Destroyer, Cruiser, and Battlecruiser skill, your proposed ORE Battleship would not fit into the traditional skill progression.
3. The only role this ship role fills is providing some combat ability to mining fleets. As I indicated before, there are already an abundance of choices to provide this capability.
4. Mining ships are hardly the only pigeon-holed ships. Where are my logistics battleships? Or my Heavy Interdictor Battlecruisers? Or my Command Destroyers? Or my CovOps Freighters? Or my Gallente missile boats? I could go on and on about pigeon-holed combat ships. Certain roles are limited to certain ship sizes. This is by design, and I think it's a good thing. It goes back to my earlier statements about making choices.

1.) I am advocating a change to the trend in ORE ships in order to improve their "racial" flavor
2.) I've already proposed other ORE combat hybrid hulls, but this post is focusing on a specific one.
3.) Actually, the role is giving more options to the end user. An organized fleet can adjust their composition to where they like it with the current lineup although some folks in fleet may dislike their given role. But allowing people to fly a combat/mining hybrid ship allows a solo or small group pilot better flexibility while also granting larger mining fleets a better ability to provide options that are both useful to the fleet and compatible with individual pilots' wants.
4.) None of those ships you listed are nearly as pidgeon-holed as mining ships are, and most of them are tech 2 which are very role-specific. Abort, Retry, Fail?



chaosgrimm wrote:
Without skills, and with 3 strip miner I's, im showing a covetor pulling 540 m3 per minute.
A rokh at max skills (before MLUs) with Miner II's x8 is 750 m3 per min
A TFI with max skills (before MLUs) with Miner II's x6 is 563 m3 per min

Doesnt the TFI meet what ur asking in terms of mining amount?


Isnt the DPS close enough? o

You've missed the effect of mining skills (Mining and Astrogeology) on the mining amount. Three strip miner Is with max skills and no ship bonus pull in 540*1.25*1.25=843.75m3 ore per minute. The easy way to calculate it is that a Miner II pulls in exactly 1/9th of what a Strip Miner I pulls in, but exactly 3x as often, so it has exactly 1/3rd the yield per minute. 3 unbonused Strip Miner Is is equivalent to 9 Miner IIs, the battleship I proposed would mine equivalent to 7.5 Miner IIs at max skills. That's 1/6th less.

Typhoon Fleet Issue is off the table, this is a tech 1 ship and should be equated with another tech 1 ship, not a faction navy ship. Raven or Typhoon are excellent examples. I am quite satisfied with the damage output of either ship even when giving up some slots for lasers, especially since both have a utility high already. But I am not satisfied with the mining output at all, even with 6 mining lasers on the Typhoon. That's still only 80% of the mining output of the Procurer but it nerfs the damage output a lot. There is still a large drone bay to work with, but the cargohold is very tiny and tank would have to be significantly nerfed to improve the cargohold much.

I am almost convinced to try flying the Typhoon as a mining ship, but it's a far cry from being useful as one.



Grezh wrote:
I also agree that to follow normal ORE progression it should instead be a drone based platform maybe ~100/250 bandwidth/bay?

I am advocating for missile launchers to become a staple of the ORE ship design philosophy as they both add a unique racial flavor and give rise to more player choices when it comes to fitting. Those high slots can be used for things other than missile launchers, but the drone bay is only used for drones.

FT Diomedes: "Reaver, sometimes I wonder what you are thinking when you sit down to post."

Frostys Virpio: "We have to give it to him that he does put more effort than the vast majority in his idea but damn does it sometime come out of nowhere."
Kenrailae
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#42 - 2015-01-21 09:50:39 UTC
I'm reasonably certain the ship you're looking for here is a Megathron with mining lasers and a few MLU's.

The Law is a point of View

The NPE IS a big deal
Reaver Glitterstim
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#43 - 2015-01-21 10:03:16 UTC
Kenrailae wrote:
I'm reasonably certain the ship you're looking for here is a Megathron with mining lasers and a few MLU's.

You people keep saying that, but these ships can't mine at any reasonable speed even with maxed yield setup.

FT Diomedes: "Reaver, sometimes I wonder what you are thinking when you sit down to post."

Frostys Virpio: "We have to give it to him that he does put more effort than the vast majority in his idea but damn does it sometime come out of nowhere."
Kenrailae
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#44 - 2015-01-21 10:09:28 UTC
Reaver Glitterstim wrote:
Kenrailae wrote:
I'm reasonably certain the ship you're looking for here is a Megathron with mining lasers and a few MLU's.

You people keep saying that, but these ships can't mine at any reasonable speed even with maxed yield setup.




Because they can. 7 Laser II's with 3 MLU's will mine quite a bit. It was a long time ago, but I used to, back before I actually learned how to play this game, use a brutix and mine competitively with friends in retrievers. I know the barges have changed since then, but they haven't all had their yield increased.


What I don't get is why you don't just use hulk's with a vulture and a few scimitars in your fleet? Or even scythes or ospreys? Cycle your reps and I'm reasonably certain you'd be too much trouble for gankers to really worry about. And if they do, then fair play to them for rising to the challenge.

The Law is a point of View

The NPE IS a big deal
Grezh
Hextrix Enterprise
#45 - 2015-01-21 16:22:46 UTC
Kenrailae wrote:

What I don't get is why you don't just use hulk's with a vulture and a few scimitars in your fleet? Or even scythes or ospreys? Cycle your reps and I'm reasonably certain you'd be too much trouble for gankers to really worry about. And if they do, then fair play to them for rising to the challenge.


If you were a small amor gang leader with limited forward intel, would you bring a ship that fit all eccm in the mids, some tank in the lows and absolutely nothing in the highs or drone bay? It's a rediculous thought since such a ship would only contribute to your fleet's objective if the enemy fielded ecm. Now replace the eccm ship with a dedicated logi and the gang to a mining fleet and it is the same idea, a dedicated logi can be the difference between life and death if you are actually engaged upon, however besides that specific scenario it is a worthless addition to the fleet since it cannot mine so you will not reach your objective ore count faster with it,, which is the mining fleet equivalent of a dps tank since you stay on field for a shorter amount of time.
Kenrailae
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#46 - 2015-01-21 18:12:24 UTC
Grezh wrote:
Kenrailae wrote:

What I don't get is why you don't just use hulk's with a vulture and a few scimitars in your fleet? Or even scythes or ospreys? Cycle your reps and I'm reasonably certain you'd be too much trouble for gankers to really worry about. And if they do, then fair play to them for rising to the challenge.


If you were a small amor gang leader with limited forward intel, would you bring a ship that fit all eccm in the mids, some tank in the lows and absolutely nothing in the highs or drone bay? It's a rediculous thought since such a ship would only contribute to your fleet's objective if the enemy fielded ecm. Now replace the eccm ship with a dedicated logi and the gang to a mining fleet and it is the same idea, a dedicated logi can be the difference between life and death if you are actually engaged upon, however besides that specific scenario it is a worthless addition to the fleet since it cannot mine so you will not reach your objective ore count faster with it,, which is the mining fleet equivalent of a dps tank since you stay on field for a shorter amount of time.



ECCM is actually quite useful, especially with the hordes of EC-300's that buzz around. And unlike your scenario, the response I put forward is actually sensible. I suggested dedicated Logi. See? Did you re-read that? Scimitars? Scythes or ospreys? Those are dedicated logi. Every PVP activity of any decent size or larger usually has some sort of logistics, why should mining ships be different? Why should mining ships be completely self sufficient, invulnerable behemoths instead of investing 30 mil isk and a bit of SP and having a couple scythes or ospreys floating around just to be safe? And a Vulture? Who doesn't use a command ship or T3 links when they can? A vulture to a mining fleet gives each ship more shield, higher resists, faster cycles on their local reps(if they have them), and less cap usage on their shield reps. You could even go whole hog and have armor resists and less sig radius too. That's like two dedicated logi right there.

Every plan is perfect until it encounters the enemy. Stick an alt in a vulture and another alt or two in a scythe. They do very much contribute to the fleets objective by keeping the fleet alive and dissuading gank attempts. To suggest that those ships do not help is narrow minded and displays a lack of understanding of how the reasoning mind works. How does losing mining barges and exhumers help you get to your objective ore count?

The Law is a point of View

The NPE IS a big deal
Grezh
Hextrix Enterprise
#47 - 2015-01-21 19:30:42 UTC
Kenrailae wrote:

ECCM is actually quite useful, especially with the hordes of EC-300's that buzz around. And unlike your scenario, the response I put forward is actually sensible. I suggested dedicated Logi. See? Did you re-read that? Scimitars? Scythes or ospreys? Those are dedicated logi. Every PVP activity of any decent size or larger usually has some sort of logistics, why should mining ships be different? Why should mining ships be completely self sufficient, invulnerable behemoths instead of investing 30 mil isk and a bit of SP and having a couple scythes or ospreys floating around just to be safe? And a Vulture? Who doesn't use a command ship or T3 links when they can? A vulture to a mining fleet gives each ship more shield, higher resists, faster cycles on their local reps(if they have them), and less cap usage on their shield reps. You could even go whole hog and have armor resists and less sig radius too. That's like two dedicated logi right there.

Every plan is perfect until it encounters the enemy. Stick an alt in a vulture and another alt or two in a scythe. They do very much contribute to the fleets objective by keeping the fleet alive and dissuading gank attempts. To suggest that those ships do not help is narrow minded and displays a lack of understanding of how the reasoning mind works. How does losing mining barges and exhumers help you get to your objective ore count?


I never stated that eccm is not useful, I did however state that brining a dedicated eccm boat when you do not have intel on the enemy composition is a big gamble that costs you effectiveness if they bring no ecm. If you could you would instead have a few of your boats that can sacrifice the fitting to put on an eccm or two with much lower loss of effectiveness of your gang if no ecm is encountered, thats is essentially what is being asked for in this thread, the ability to sacrifice less then a ship's worth of yield for more defence options instead of a full ship's worth of yield for it.

An orca is the goto ship for boosting a mining fleet since it can also haul ore away.

Nowhere in this thread was it requested that mining ships be invulnerable behemoths immune to pvp interactions, all that was requested was more choice between the two extremes of have a dedicated pvp defence fleet or be sitting ducks with little in the way of maneuverability and options.
Kenrailae
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#48 - 2015-01-21 19:43:31 UTC
How does a vulture and a couple scythes merit the phrase 'Dedicated PVP defense fleet?'

Also why aren't you using an itty 5 to shuttle your ore so the Orca can stay on site and provide constant boosts/refitting services? If you're even putting it on field and not leaving it sit in/around a POS?

And you DO have more choice. Fit Rokh's or Megathrons with mining lasers and MLU's. Or have refits in your orca so if gankers do swing by you can fit a bunch of bulkheads or armor plates as your being targeted to increase your survivability. You do have a ton of options available to you. You just need to choose what you're going to do. A procurer is far from a sitting duck. It has an excellent tank. But you don't get a Hulk/covetor's yield and a procurer's tank without losing something. They were balanced how they were for reasons.

The Law is a point of View

The NPE IS a big deal
Reaver Glitterstim
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#49 - 2015-01-21 22:58:05 UTC  |  Edited by: Reaver Glitterstim
Kenrailae wrote:
Because they can. 7 Laser II's with 3 MLU's will mine quite a bit. It was a long time ago, but I used to, back before I actually learned how to play this game, use a brutix and mine competitively with friends in retrievers. I know the barges have changed since then, but they haven't all had their yield increased.

But Retrievers have had their yield increased. Also, we've been over this enough times already even in this very post, but 7 Laser IIs with 3 MLUs will rid your Megathron of CPU with no room left for anything else. Slots and powergrid are useless without at least a little bit of CPU to back them up!


Kenrailae wrote:
What I don't get is why you don't just use hulk's with a vulture and a few scimitars in your fleet? Or even scythes or ospreys? Cycle your reps and I'm reasonably certain you'd be too much trouble for gankers to really worry about. And if they do, then fair play to them for rising to the challenge.

I don't have a fleet to mine with most of the times I mine. Now what?


Kenrailae wrote:
ut you don't get a Hulk/covetor's yield and a procurer's tank without losing something. They were balanced how they were for reasons.

Howabout losing mining yield? Once again made clear in the OP but I've had to re-iterate it several times throughout the post. I'm getting tired of having to repeat myself when you guys are unable to even read.

FT Diomedes: "Reaver, sometimes I wonder what you are thinking when you sit down to post."

Frostys Virpio: "We have to give it to him that he does put more effort than the vast majority in his idea but damn does it sometime come out of nowhere."
chaosgrimm
Synth Tech
#50 - 2015-01-21 23:51:47 UTC
Reaver Glitterstim wrote:
Kenrailae wrote:
I'm reasonably certain the ship you're looking for here is a Megathron with mining lasers and a few MLU's.

You people keep saying that, but these ships can't mine at any reasonable speed even with maxed yield setup.

didnt you say in ur OP that your proposal will mine less than an Rokh?

Reaver Glitterstim wrote:

You've missed the effect of mining skills (Mining and Astrogeology) on the mining amount. Three strip miner Is with max skills and no ship bonus pull in 540*1.25*1.25=843.75m3 ore per minute. The easy way to calculate it is that a Miner II pulls in exactly 1/9th of what a Strip Miner I pulls in, but exactly 3x as often, so it has exactly 1/3rd the yield per minute. 3 unbonused Strip Miner Is is equivalent to 9 Miner IIs, the battleship I proposed would mine equivalent to 7.5 Miner IIs at max skills. That's 1/6th less.

Typhoon Fleet Issue is off the table, this is a tech 1 ship and should be equated with another tech 1 ship, not a faction navy ship. Raven or Typhoon are excellent examples. I am quite satisfied with the damage output of either ship even when giving up some slots for lasers, especially since both have a utility high already. But I am not satisfied with the mining output at all, even with 6 mining lasers on the Typhoon. That's still only 80% of the mining output of the Procurer but it nerfs the damage output a lot. There is still a large drone bay to work with, but the cargohold is very tiny and tank would have to be significantly nerfed to improve the cargohold much.

I am almost convinced to try flying the Typhoon as a mining ship, but it's a far cry from being useful as one.


So 7.5 miner IIs at max skills is around 704 m3, and if we take into account the TFI gets could use 2 lows before being at your requested 5 lows.


= Your proposal v. TFI in a mining setup =
Your ship with 5 mining lasers + 2 torp launchers w/ tech 1 thermal:
~704 m3 ore per min
~144 dps

TFI with 6 mining lasers (w/ 2 MLUs i.e. down to 5 lows) + 2 torp launchers w/ ANY t1 torp
~668 m3 ore per min
~172 dps
(not to mention it fields 2 more sentries)

you miss out on ~36 m3 per min, gain ~28 dps, gain dmg bonus to all dmg types, gain 2 more sentry drones

= Your proposal v. TFI in a dmg setup =
Your ship with 3 mining lasers + 4 torp launchers w/ tech 1 termal
~422 m3 ore per min
~287 dps

TFI with 5 mining lasers, 3 torp launchers w/ ANY t1 torp + 2 ballistic controls(i.e. down to 5 lows)
~469 m3 ore per min
~316 dps
(not to mention, it fields 2 more sentries)

you gain ~47 m3 per min, gain ~29 dps, gain dmg bonus to all dmg types, gain 2 more sentry drones


And i mean, after all that, you only major differences are a the TFI only has 5 mids instead of 6, it doesnt have the cargohold you want, and you dont like the price tag.... For all intents and purposes though, the TFI will work for what you want it to do.

I think I understand what you want to try to achieve with this.... so at this point, imma take my leave and say: -1. It's too close to what can already be done. I dont really see any reason a new ship needs to be added for this when the differences between it and what is already available are so small.
Scuzzy Logic
Space Spuds
#51 - 2015-01-22 06:24:29 UTC
All I want is something with an ore hold and 5 gas cloud harvester IIs, is that so much to ask?
Kenrailae
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#52 - 2015-01-22 09:41:52 UTC  |  Edited by: Kenrailae
So fit a megathron with Fewer mining lasers....?


Your asking for a ship that can already be achieved in other ways, or close enough that there isn't a need for it at the present time. You haven't shown a clear NEED that needs to be filled for the game to function better.


*EDIT: The dude above a couple posts took a lot more time to actually explain it, but what he said. There isn't a need large enough to merit a new ship for this.

The Law is a point of View

The NPE IS a big deal
Reaver Glitterstim
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#53 - 2015-01-22 09:48:25 UTC  |  Edited by: ISD Decoy
chaosgrimm wrote:
Reaver Glitterstim wrote:
Kenrailae wrote:
I'm reasonably certain the ship you're looking for here is a Megathron with mining lasers and a few MLU's.

You people keep saying that, but these ships can't mine at any reasonable speed even with maxed yield setup.

didnt you say in ur OP that your proposal will mine less than an Rokh?


(bunch of stuff that ignores CPU)

Slightly less than a Rokh at max yield setup, but with a lot more CPU left over. Enough to fit something other than the mining lasers, in fact.

*snip* Please don't spam all caps. ~ ISD Decoy

Getting tired of saying it here.


Kenrailae wrote:
So fit a megathron with Fewer mining lasers....?


Your asking for a ship that can already be achieved in other ways, or close enough that there isn't a need for it at the present time. You haven't shown a clear NEED that needs to be filled for the game to function better.


*EDIT: The dude above a couple posts took a lot more time to actually explain it, but what he said. There isn't a need large enough to merit a new ship for this.


*snip* Please don't spam all caps. ~ ISD Decoy

I have shown a clear need. There is a giant hole in the existing ship line-up: zero mining ships with a significant amount of fitting flexibility. You guys keep saying I can get similar stats with existing battleships and it's simply so far from the truth that I have to suspect you guys aren't even bothering to check EFT before posting about it.

FT Diomedes: "Reaver, sometimes I wonder what you are thinking when you sit down to post."

Frostys Virpio: "We have to give it to him that he does put more effort than the vast majority in his idea but damn does it sometime come out of nowhere."
Reaver Glitterstim
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#54 - 2015-01-22 09:56:54 UTC  |  Edited by: Reaver Glitterstim
Scuzzy Logic wrote:
All I want is something with an ore hold and 5 gas cloud harvester IIs, is that so much to ask?

The Gnosis isn't a bad option for gas mining, since gas is pretty small.

I ran up a fit on EFT. Takes a lot of CPU mods, but it can actually fit 5 gas miners with a probe launcher, 2x LSE II, 2x AIF II, an XL ASB, MWD, DC II, and 1680m3 cargohold.

FT Diomedes: "Reaver, sometimes I wonder what you are thinking when you sit down to post."

Frostys Virpio: "We have to give it to him that he does put more effort than the vast majority in his idea but damn does it sometime come out of nowhere."
Tiddle Jr
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#55 - 2015-01-22 11:07:09 UTC
All righty, here what i came out this morning - T2 Noctis Hull base ORE ship. Interesting ship, with very narrow role.

So taking into the mind a few threads related to Mining Drones "need more love" i think we could expect that love from CCP, in a turms of appearing T2 mining drones along with Mining Drone yield upgrade module. Whisch is obviously nice addition and are very welcomed and expected things in game.

Here the Noctis turned to T2 version of it, with re-designed slots layout ofc, other major stats, and here is most interesting thing - the bonuses.

Mining drone bonuses for sure, along with solid bandwith and drone bay. Maybe we could expect something like Vexor has atm, 10% bonus to Drone damage, hitpoints and ofc yield gain.

The layouts might be turned upside down, 3/4/(8 just to much), lets say 6 low slots with basic 1.46k m3 of cargohold with extenders would give an amazing capacity.

Tanking, dunno really up to you, ASB or MAAR i think shiled tank is more obviuos in this case.

So pretty tanky, could handle at least 1 nado alpha strike could protect itself with heavies or either sentries and still provide significant ammount of ore mined via drones.

Just a thought from my side i'd nothng serious but still a LOT to think of vs. debating seally BS idea which is useless from my pov.

Cheers.

"The message is that there are known knowns. There are things we know that we know. There are known unknowns. That is to say there are things that we now know we don't know. But there are also unknown unknowns. There are things we don't know" - CCP
Kenrailae
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#56 - 2015-01-22 11:08:50 UTC  |  Edited by: Kenrailae
Okay, then use a Navy Thron, for just one example.

Stick in a geno CA-1 and CA-2 set, with an EE-603(604 or 605 makes it even easier)


Then fit 7 miner II's, keep one empty high for whatever you want to put in there

1x large shield extender II(go meta for even more CPU savings)
2x Invul II's
1x EM ward II

3x T2 laser upgrades(again meta will save you CPU and keep most the bonus)
2x Co-pro II's(Faction Co-pros are even better)
2x Cargo hold II's
1x DCU II(Meta 4 DCU for even more CPU savings)

5x Fed Navy Garde's.

then two cargo rigs and one CPU rig

Ship has ~14k shield at 76,64,73,78 resists
mines ~840 m3/cycle
and does 200 ish DPS off your drones alone, as it can field 5 sentries
It also had just shy of 1,400 cargo.


I have my industrialist undocked with all mods on on test right now, so it DOES work.

Plus it's cap stable to boot, has another 10k armor to chew through and 7.5k hull. With a little rework you can fit an armor tank on that badboy as well. Put a slave set minus omega in, and it's natural armor HP plus a bit of resist give it quite a bit of ship to chew through. Is this a blasphemous use of a Mavy Nega? Uh... yeah, but it CAN do very close to what you're asking, on it's own.

So to answer your CPU CPU CPU CPU splurge.... No, it is certainly possible.


Change the fit a bit, upgrade the EE-603 to a 605, and you can get it to 924 m3/ full cycle across 7 lasers, with slightly less tank and a bit less cargo. OFC if you go the other way you can get more tank and derps with a bit less yield/cycle.

It CAN be done.


EDIT: Seeing the Noctis developed further would be an interesting concept, as the venture has been. The notion of an ORE battleship is just plain lolwut material.

The Law is a point of View

The NPE IS a big deal
Reaver Glitterstim
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#57 - 2015-01-22 15:50:08 UTC
So meta modules to save CPU, CPU upgrades, faction stuff to increase output, expensive implants, and I still have a sub-par tank with no XL ASB.

One last time, NO IT DOESN'T.
Please stop posting the same crap or I'll have to report your posts from now on. You're welcome to post something fresh but you've been churning out the same lie for a while now and it needs to stop.

FT Diomedes: "Reaver, sometimes I wonder what you are thinking when you sit down to post."

Frostys Virpio: "We have to give it to him that he does put more effort than the vast majority in his idea but damn does it sometime come out of nowhere."
Kenrailae
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#58 - 2015-01-22 16:55:59 UTC
Reaver Glitterstim wrote:
So meta modules to save CPU, CPU upgrades, faction stuff to increase output, expensive implants, and I still have a sub-par tank with no XL ASB.

One last time, NO IT DOESN'T.
Please stop posting the same crap or I'll have to report your posts from now on. You're welcome to post something fresh but you've been churning out the same lie for a while now and it needs to stop.



Go right ahead, because it's not the same, it's constructive counter statements, trying to get you to develop your idea, or leave it. You cried a Mega couldn't do it, so I showed you a way to. And none of those implants are expensive. Buy a slave set+Omega, then tell me 150m for the geno's is really expensive implants. Or you coulda been smart and stockpiled on them while they were cheap. XL-ASB is really not that great, on an unbonused ship won't boost back too much more than an LSE, and comes with a nice 60 second reload time . Your 'proposal' wanted 5 low slots. A Navy thron still has 6 low slots to do whatever you want with after you fit 2 co-pro's. If you don't put 3 mining laser upgrades in there, I'm pretty sure it only needs one, or can keep two and put on an LSE or something, or go with 5 lasers instead of 7 and pull in a bit less ore but have much more CPU space and a couple free turret locations. Geno implants are not that expensive, and EE603's are only like, 20 ish mil, or a handful of LP.

The other thing you completely over look is how much the approximate build req's would be, and also how this random battleship book would fit into the rest of the ORE tree. A navy thron costs ~510 mil. +170m for implants and we're at 780. An Orca costs 700. My navy thron, barring hull because Orca has alot of hull because it's 'a capital ship' would have about as much if not a bit more tank than an orca in shield and armor. Even an Orca doesn't fit an XL-ASB without some concession, be it a link or a prop mod.

Looking at the next closest thing in the ORE line-up, the hulk or mackinaw. They cost about 200 mil, but can't field the damage potential of a navy thron, nor the tank. Comparatively, this proposal is much closer to an orca than a hulk or mack. So you're now complaining about cost of a few implants when the ship you're wanting so desperately will most likely cost 500 or so mil isk anyway, if not closer to 700. But again, as you've not provided anything to your concept beyond 'oh I want this and this and that' as far as slot layout goes and a 'wut?' to those ship bonuses, it's pretty hard to tell.


You don't need to use the meta modules it works with straight tech 2. You don't need to use faction, it works with straight tech 2. I offered other ways to improve it. That 'Tank' is comparable to a procurer, which is touted as a lower yield, battleship sized tank barge.

You see, you keep touting this CPU argument but have completely and utterly failed to actually give this concept of yours any 'substance.' 'Oh it should have x number of slots and maybe these bonuses' is about 25% of a ship. You keep ranting about CPU, but have not demonstrated how this concept is any different from any of these others in suffering from CPU, and how your approach won't create an unintentional OP monster as quite often happens in Eve. A small thing here or there put into the hands of this community could be the next 'ishtar' or what have you. Instead of ranting about how it's not possible already, why don't you actually finish the idea, or failing that, leave it, because I've shown you that what you want can be achieved. The burden of proof is on you.


-1 for unnecessary idea, incomplete idea, poor manners, ranting, and empty threats of trying to use forum moderation to defend a bad post.

The Law is a point of View

The NPE IS a big deal
Grezh
Hextrix Enterprise
#59 - 2015-01-22 19:06:35 UTC
Kenrailae wrote:

Go right ahead, because it's not the same, it's constructive counter statements, trying to get you to develop your idea, or leave it. You cried a Mega couldn't do it, so I showed you a way to. And none of those implants are expensive. Buy a slave set+Omega, then tell me 150m for the geno's is really expensive implants. Or you coulda been smart and stockpiled on them while they were cheap. XL-ASB is really not that great, on an unbonused ship won't boost back too much more than an LSE, and comes with a nice 60 second reload time . Your 'proposal' wanted 5 low slots. A Navy thron still has 6 low slots to do whatever you want with after you fit 2 co-pro's. If you don't put 3 mining laser upgrades in there, I'm pretty sure it only needs one, or can keep two and put on an LSE or something, or go with 5 lasers instead of 7 and pull in a bit less ore but have much more CPU space and a couple free turret locations. Geno implants are not that expensive, and EE603's are only like, 20 ish mil, or a handful of LP.

The other thing you completely over look is how much the approximate build req's would be, and also how this random battleship book would fit into the rest of the ORE tree. A navy thron costs ~510 mil. +170m for implants and we're at 780. An Orca costs 700. My navy thron, barring hull because Orca has alot of hull because it's 'a capital ship' would have about as much if not a bit more tank than an orca in shield and armor. Even an Orca doesn't fit an XL-ASB without some concession, be it a link or a prop mod.

Looking at the next closest thing in the ORE line-up, the hulk or mackinaw. They cost about 200 mil, but can't field the damage potential of a navy thron, nor the tank. Comparatively, this proposal is much closer to an orca than a hulk or mack. So you're now complaining about cost of a few implants when the ship you're wanting so desperately will most likely cost 500 or so mil isk anyway, if not closer to 700. But again, as you've not provided anything to your concept beyond 'oh I want this and this and that' as far as slot layout goes and a 'wut?' to those ship bonuses, it's pretty hard to tell.


You don't need to use the meta modules it works with straight tech 2. You don't need to use faction, it works with straight tech 2. I offered other ways to improve it. That 'Tank' is comparable to a procurer, which is touted as a lower yield, battleship sized tank barge.

You see, you keep touting this CPU argument but have completely and utterly failed to actually give this concept of yours any 'substance.' 'Oh it should have x number of slots and maybe these bonuses' is about 25% of a ship. You keep ranting about CPU, but have not demonstrated how this concept is any different from any of these others in suffering from CPU, and how your approach won't create an unintentional OP monster as quite often happens in Eve. A small thing here or there put into the hands of this community could be the next 'ishtar' or what have you. Instead of ranting about how it's not possible already, why don't you actually finish the idea, or failing that, leave it, because I've shown you that what you want can be achieved. The burden of proof is on you.


-1 for unnecessary idea, incomplete idea, poor manners, ranting, and empty threats of trying to use forum moderation to defend a bad post.


1. Requiring fitting implants and a navy battleship just to fit the role is why an ORE battleship is necessary.

2. T2 cruisers are at most 50 mil cheeper then a t1 battleship so at most an ORE battleship would be 250 mil.

3. Just because i can fit a merlin with 3 t2 miners when fit with 2 co-pro doesn't make the venture an unecessary addition.

4. The increase in cost, lower pwg and only 1 bonus to pvp effectiveness guarantees that such a battleship will be considered underpowered pvp wise as was demonstrated by the pre-rebalance typhoon.
Kenrailae
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#60 - 2015-01-22 21:50:54 UTC
Grezh wrote:
1. Requiring fitting implants and a navy battleship just to fit the role is why an ORE battleship is necessary.

2. T2 cruisers are at most 50 mil cheeper then a t1 battleship so at most an ORE battleship would be 250 mil.

3. Just because i can fit a merlin with 3 t2 miners when fit with 2 co-pro doesn't make the venture an unecessary addition.

4. The increase in cost, lower pwg and only 1 bonus to pvp effectiveness guarantees that such a battleship will be considered underpowered pvp wise as was demonstrated by the pre-rebalance typhoon.



1. Many ships require fitting implants or a fitting mod to 'fit properly.' A dual rep triage armor thanatos requires a PG implant/mod. Single rep in triage is pretty pointless. A Nidhoggur has a horrible time trying to fit anything triage. If memory serves, a megathron struggles to fit a rack of T2 425's. CCP has balanced many ships so they require either a concession or fitting implant/mod. Like the Jaguar, right OP? This does not in any way make an ORE battleship 'necessary.' Do I in general like the idea of adding more ships to Eve? Yes. Do they need to be sensible and thought out? Yes. Do I occasionally wonder what would happen if 'x' ship was added, even though it was not really awesome at anything, kinda just a lesser version of this, or a redundant version of that, or kinda nothing in particular? Oh wait.... I see you over there Deimos, or nidhoggur, or insert ship that no one uses because 'that ship over there' just plain does it better. Yes I know a pimped Nidhoggur in a WH is bad ass. Yes I know there are always hard core fans of whatever ship that will use it even when it is literally the worst ship in New Eden.

2. Unfounded assumption. It's a Faction battleship, even if it's ORE. ORE does not have a line of frigates, cruisers, etc in game. It has the barges, but this fits literally no where in their existing tree, if CCP wishes to maintain any sort of consistency. That alone has the potential to make it far more expensive. See following list for details:
Barghest
Bhaalgorn
Tempest Fleet
Raven Navy
Nestor

And the interesting thing about all these^, they have their own progression tree that is consistent with CCP design, and are still more expensive than their T1 counter parts, in some cases 3 times as expensive, thereabouts. This is why we need to know how OP proposes this ship is made? Is it a whole new line? in that case give us the rest of the line and sell it to us. Is it an LP blueprint? Is it T1, T2, T3? Faction? anything? Then we can see how we can twist it and see if we can exploit it.


3. The Venture was not necessary. It was neat, but not necessary in any way shape or form. Watching them be warped into a PVP machine was quite entertaining, because all those bonuses for PVP.

4. This is why smartbombing BS are a thing right? Because all those smartbomb bonuses. Even better, smartbombing black ops or, yes, you're reading this right, smartbombing cloaky T3's. Both of these exist because all those smartbombing bonuses right? Also why slow cat fleets are so hard to beat, because all those combat bonuses right? Further, this is why battle exequror's still run around here and there, because all those combat bonuses. One of my personal favorites, the Jabbadon used by some wormhole entities to pull all the sleeper aggro onto an abbadon fit with..... wait for it..... ECM!, Voila! All those ECM bonuses!

As stated, the Eve community can take anything and warp it into something it was never intended to be. Hence the need to show how this proposal 'fixes this absolute must have issue without introducing some new monster.'

Again, the burden of Proof is on you, OP.

The Law is a point of View

The NPE IS a big deal