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Should there be better rewards for participating(but not winning) in PvP? And arenas maybe?
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Lyron-Baktos
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#61 - 2011-12-19 19:15:07 UTC
why should the loser of a fight get rewarded?
Takseen
Federal Defense Union
Gallente Federation
#62 - 2011-12-19 19:27:48 UTC
Xoria Krint wrote:


And how can you fly around in a stealth bomber for hours and don't get a kill or at least get killed? A bit nervous about losing you PvP-ship?
EDIT: And why would you get something if you lose? I see no reason.

Most of those hours were spent setting up gate bookmarks and ineffectively trying to Dscan some ships.
The only ships I actually *saw* on the overview were
-a pair of thrashers who warped off almost immediately while I was still out of range of the gate
-a 20 man BC fleet
-a T2 and a faction Minnie cruiser, I think. I probably would have engaged, but then someone else in another stealth bomber did so first and I decided to sit and observe. Then they all left via the gate.

Getting killed would have been easy, I'm sure. But not especially entertaining compared to just looking about. I've too few spare ships and it takes too long to actually find something interesting to just go kamikaze on the first target I spot.

If it helps to put it in context, I also hated the lack of respawns in Counterstrike. And I guess that's a similarly "elite" pvp game.
But I love fiendishly difficult games like I Wanna Be The Guy. Because while progress is slow and not guaranteed and death is frequent, the active playing time is near 100%. If it had a five minute cooldown on respawning, I wouldn't go near it.
Takseen
Federal Defense Union
Gallente Federation
#63 - 2011-12-19 19:54:16 UTC
Lyron-Baktos wrote:
why should the loser of a fight get rewarded?



To encourage him to keep fighting, quite simply. Pvp in Eve is quite a binary thing, especially in 1v1 situations. The winner gets killmails, an improved K:D ratio on his killboard, and gets to loot the field, and achieves strategic objectives if any. The loser probably just gets a few killmails, depending on how onesided the fight is.
FPS deathmatch games have the least binary outcomes. Sure you might be bottom of the scoreboard, but you got a few more frags atleast and scored a fluke doublekill. Warcraft battlegrounds, if the match is not completely one-sided, usually allow for a few kills for the losing players. Starcraft 2 ladder games *are* binary, but because of the matchmaking system you're effectively guaranteed to win one game for every game you lose.
There's also the time and money costs. You don't have to replay the SC2 singleplayer campaign on Casual every time you play 5 ladder games. You don't lose a level in world of wacraft whenever you lose a bg(and god help blizzard if you did...). You don't have to pay EA €5 for every 100 free for all deathmatches you enter(not yet anyway...)
When you create a system where the less effective you are in pvp, the less time you get to *spend* pvping, because you're back in your pod, or buying new fittings, or hauling new fittings to where you fight, or grinding ISK to buy the fittings, that's obviously going to dampen interest a little bit.
Now this doesn't even matter that much, *unless* you ever have cause to complain about a lack of targets to shoot at. Atleast now hopefully you've got some more understanding of why that is.

Oh, and one more thing. Without making use of alts, there's basically a 24 hour cooldown on switching from pve to pvp mode. Which again is quite rare in other games. There's probably tons of legit reasons not to change jumpclone cooldowns, but it is yet another disincentive when I'm already leaning more towards pve.

(Disclaimer : This is entirely academic and I've no particular interest in changing Eve's pvp, as I'm definitely in the minority in this view. I was just attempting to explain why I'm reluctant to get into *Eve's* pvp, when I've no issue with other flavours)
Morganta
The Greater Goon
#64 - 2011-12-19 20:03:42 UTC
Takseen wrote:
Lyron-Baktos wrote:
why should the loser of a fight get rewarded?



stuff...


problem is this is not mp deathmatch
eve is nothing like RL combat either, where when you die you're dead

eve combat is eve combat, the closest you can get in eve is to get podded so you might have half a chance to get back to the field before the fight is over.

you don't respawn continuously until the match timer runs out, your fight ends when you go pop, then you may or may not try again.
you can't compare a timespan score card on a MPFFA map to combat in eve, its just apples and oranges.

so like I said its up to you to decide if you want to get on a juicy T3 KM at the cost of a 150k rifter or to sit it out.
If you involve yourself, you will get something out of it, if you don't you won't

and as far as dueling or 1v1 goes, that's not PVP, thats a **** measuring contest that brings nothing to eve in gereral
do it if you want to, nobody cares, but don't expect to be rewarded for it
Takseen
Federal Defense Union
Gallente Federation
#65 - 2011-12-19 20:19:03 UTC
Morganta wrote:


and as far as dueling or 1v1 goes, that's not PVP, thats a **** measuring contest that brings nothing to eve in gereral
do it if you want to, nobody cares, but don't expect to be rewarded for it

I wouldn't quote this, only for you mentioning killmail whoring on an industrial or rifter just before it :)
RubyPorto
RubysRhymes
#66 - 2011-12-19 20:29:51 UTC
Takseen wrote:
Morganta wrote:


and as far as dueling or 1v1 goes, that's not PVP, thats a **** measuring contest that brings nothing to eve in gereral
do it if you want to, nobody cares, but don't expect to be rewarded for it

I wouldn't quote this, only for you mentioning killmail whoring on an industrial or rifter just before it :)


Why do you think I fit a target painter to my Viator?


Oh, you mean whoring in on a dying industrial Oops My Bad.

"It's easy to speak for the silent majority. They rarely object to what you put into their mouths." -Abrazzar "the risk of having your day ruined by other people is the cornerstone with which EVE was built" -CCP Solomon
Hungry Eyes
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#67 - 2011-12-19 21:04:26 UTC
Tanya Powers wrote:
Schonm wrote:
I used to play fps' a bit, I was never great but depending on the game was pretty mediocre overall lol. The difference was is that they're fun and it doesn't matter if you die.

In EVE, you spend a while doing logistics, meetup, wait for an hour at least, jump around... which by the way I pay red frog to do whenever I can that's how awful it is, maybe find someone and when you do either there is lag, blob domination or a minute or so of clicking red crosses. If you win at crosses you get a silly killmail, that's it, if you lose that same killmail turns into an eternal badge of failure also -ISK for whatever your ship cost.

In the end everyone loses in EVE PVP



Very much this.

.


this is why mechanics need to be in place to encourage and reward small gang warfare. in my opinions, gang sizes started getting out of control when Canes and Drakes became the bread and butter of most fleet doctrines. all of a sudden, you need more DPS and more range to dent anything. no better solution than to use Canes and Drakes yourself. i remember having so much fun in FW a few years back because most engagements were small gang. now, if you dont have a fleet of Canes, Drakes or Baddons, gtfo.
Lyron-Baktos
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#68 - 2011-12-19 21:13:21 UTC  |  Edited by: Lyron-Baktos
Takseen wrote:
Lyron-Baktos wrote:
why should the loser of a fight get rewarded?



To encourage him to keep fighting, quite simply. Pvp in Eve is quite a binary thing, especially in 1v1 situations. The winner gets killmails, an improved K:D ratio on his killboard, and gets to loot the field, and achieves strategic objectives if any. The loser probably just gets a few killmails, depending on how onesided the fight is.
FPS deathmatch games have the least binary outcomes. Sure you might be bottom of the scoreboard, but you got a few more frags atleast and scored a fluke doublekill. Warcraft battlegrounds, if the match is not completely one-sided, usually allow for a few kills for the losing players. Starcraft 2 ladder games *are* binary, but because of the matchmaking system you're effectively guaranteed to win one game for every game you lose.
There's also the time and money costs. You don't have to replay the SC2 singleplayer campaign on Casual every time you play 5 ladder games. You don't lose a level in world of wacraft whenever you lose a bg(and god help blizzard if you did...). You don't have to pay EA €5 for every 100 free for all deathmatches you enter(not yet anyway...)
When you create a system where the less effective you are in pvp, the less time you get to *spend* pvping, because you're back in your pod, or buying new fittings, or hauling new fittings to where you fight, or grinding ISK to buy the fittings, that's obviously going to dampen interest a little bit.
Now this doesn't even matter that much, *unless* you ever have cause to complain about a lack of targets to shoot at. Atleast now hopefully you've got some more understanding of why that is.

Oh, and one more thing. Without making use of alts, there's basically a 24 hour cooldown on switching from pve to pvp mode. Which again is quite rare in other games. There's probably tons of legit reasons not to change jumpclone cooldowns, but it is yet another disincentive when I'm already leaning more towards pve.

(Disclaimer : This is entirely academic and I've no particular interest in changing Eve's pvp, as I'm definitely in the minority in this view. I was just attempting to explain why I'm reluctant to get into *Eve's* pvp, when I've no issue with other flavours)


you have good points but I don't think rewarding the loser is the answer. Maybe give a bigger reward to the winner, thus increasing the chance of the losing side sticking around in hopes of turning the tide to their favor. While everyone want's more and longer fights, nobody, well some people, don't want easy fights where the losing side just sticks around in a suicide to get some reward. That will just decrease the fun of fighting