These forums have been archived and are now read-only.

The new forums are live and can be found at https://forums.eveonline.com/

Market Discussions

 
  • Topic is locked indefinitely.
Previous page123Next page
 

{Pending} 1 Trillion isk bond fully collateralized @ 1.9% {Proposal}

First post
Author
Big Lynx
#21 - 2015-01-19 20:34:55 UTC
Zahara Cody wrote:
Big Lynx wrote:
390 PLEX - ~ 330b
1 Guardian Vexor - 180b
1 Adrestia - 150b
1 Mimir - 100b
1 Vangel 100b
1 Etana - 80b
1 Freki - 70b
1 Utu - 70b


Realistic Price estimations from my pov. (What some ppl would pay)


If it's that close (1.08 tril), what's another 50 bil collateral?

4,63%
Zahara Cody
Imperial Corrections Service.
#22 - 2015-01-19 20:36:09 UTC
http://i.imgur.com/Pl693cq.jpg

Hating is free, that's why poor people do it the best.

Big Lynx
#23 - 2015-01-19 20:42:59 UTC
Zahara Cody wrote:
http://i.imgur.com/Pl693cq.jpg

Me canz be 3rd party
Koniforous
Tauren Transit
#24 - 2015-01-19 21:03:25 UTC
Zahara Cody wrote:
Koniforous wrote:
okoolos rimmer wrote:
Zahara Cody wrote:
okoolos rimmer wrote:
What ship is worth what in your opinion for them + plexes to be worth 1.1T alltogether?
can we get a value estimate for each ship please?

cheers.


no


well, why not?

edit: http://imgur.com/PesYzTO

food for thought.

edit #2 . ship evaluation from the horse's mouth: http://imgur.com/MvQWAPW

If you are valuing your own collateral at 805bil, why did you request 1tril at "100%" collateral? Collateral should be undervalued by about 10%, that allows you to request 724.5bil at 100% collateral. Personally though, I think collector items should be undervalued by much more than 10% because it can be so difficult to liquidate them if the borrower defaults. You have damaged your future ability to secure loans with this ridiculous thread.



I did not include the 390 PLEX.

My mistake! Valuing the plex at 780mil each, adding the 805bil bring you to 998bil. That's a lot better! I still think you should under value the assets further because of their expected difficult liquidation. The lender should also be aware that a plex sale will most likely drop the value of the 390 plex lower than 780mil each, further complicating the collateral's value and level work should you default. My apologies for failing to add the plex previously.
Angelica Everstar
#25 - 2015-01-20 04:01:22 UTC
I'm more getting the sense that this is a WTS thread, but then who am I to speak Roll

§ Current Bond AE09 1 Trillion / Acc. 4,5t ISK

ƒ Want to become a better trader ?

¢ Pls help support EVEs charities!

@EveEntrepreneur

Zahara Cody
Imperial Corrections Service.
#26 - 2015-01-20 04:10:29 UTC
If I had wanted to sell, I would've.

Hating is free, that's why poor people do it the best.

Vaerah Vahrokha
Vahrokh Consulting
#27 - 2015-01-20 09:13:10 UTC  |  Edited by: Vaerah Vahrokha
Considering the amount at stake, the 6 months (min) duration and that: "If I had wanted to sell, I would've.", this is not just your typical, mundane loan.
It's a bond at a minimum. As such - or just as a courtesy to investors - a somewhat more detailed plan would have been welcome.

In example, just to give a tip, a business plan about how you'd raise a minimum of 114b in interests.
Because that, too, would need to be factored in the interest rate.
In fact, providing collateral is cool, but in this case getting it liquidated in a decent time frame would be a true pain and thus perspective investors would really want to be sure this is not just a "dumping my though-to-sell stuff" scheme.

For the new guys on this forum, I am putting a little article of mine describing a (much smaller) collateralized loan, the steps behind collateral appraisal and so on. From the Collateral Holder point of view.

But that's not all. Behind collateral of such magnitude there could be all sort of painful details.
In example, the "prospectus" does not detail where the collateral is.
In the past I had people insist I'd hold their 6B blinged marauder as collateral... with the detail it was stored 4 jumps in low sec.

Another had a couple hundreds of billions worth of capital BPOs... and they were in a middle-of-nowhere system in the whereabouts of Dodixie.
In case of default, collateral holder would have had to risk and sweat to get them moved to Jita.

Most of all, in case of default, investors start demanding their ISK back NOW and any delay makes them pressure and eventually start stating the 3rd party service is maliciously stealing keeping the collateral, with great image damage for the intermediary.

Last but not least, a portion of the collateral is made of highly speculative items. That alone would deserve an appraisal like this one.

So, here we have a relatively low % interest payout, well below the customary 110% safety margin and some of the most painful-to-move/sell collateral (dealing with rarities collectors is a painful matter itself).

I suggest some re-adjustment.


Edit: another thing for the Market Discussion newcomers: I found this example of "official collateral appraisal". Yes, I really miss the "meta" we used to have in this forum.
Zahara Cody
Imperial Corrections Service.
#28 - 2015-01-20 11:47:27 UTC
Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:
Considering the amount at stake, the 6 months (min) duration and that: "If I had wanted to sell, I would've.", this is not just your typical, mundane loan.
It's a bond at a minimum. As such - or just as a courtesy to investors - a somewhat more detailed plan would have been welcome.

In example, just to give a tip, a business plan about how you'd raise a minimum of 114b in interests.
Because that, too, would need to be factored in the interest rate.
In fact, providing collateral is cool, but in this case getting it liquidated in a decent time frame would be a true pain and thus perspective investors would really want to be sure this is not just a "dumping my though-to-sell stuff" scheme.

For the new guys on this forum, I am putting a little article of mine describing a (much smaller) collateralized loan, the steps behind collateral appraisal and so on. From the Collateral Holder point of view.

But that's not all. Behind collateral of such magnitude there could be all sort of painful details.
In example, the "prospectus" does not detail where the collateral is.
In the past I had people insist I'd hold their 6B blinged marauder as collateral... with the detail it was stored 4 jumps in low sec.

Another had a couple hundreds of billions worth of capital BPOs... and they were in a middle-of-nowhere system in the whereabouts of Dodixie.
In case of default, collateral holder would have had to risk and sweat to get them moved to Jita.

Most of all, in case of default, investors start demanding their ISK back NOW and any delay makes them pressure and eventually start stating the 3rd party service is maliciously stealing keeping the collateral, with great image damage for the intermediary.

Last but not least, a portion of the collateral is made of highly speculative items. That alone would deserve an appraisal like this one.

So, here we have a relatively low % interest payout, well below the customary 110% safety margin and some of the most painful-to-move/sell collateral (dealing with rarities collectors is a painful matter itself).

I suggest some re-adjustment.


Edit: another thing for the Market Discussion newcomers: I found this example of "official collateral appraisal". Yes, I really miss the "meta" we used to have in this forum.


devastated

Hating is free, that's why poor people do it the best.

Zahara Cody
Imperial Corrections Service.
#29 - 2015-01-20 11:59:26 UTC
That's a wall of text for I don't know but I better make myself sound important like the self appointed MD weasel that I am.

Hating is free, that's why poor people do it the best.

TheSmokingHertog
Julia's Interstellar Trade Emperium
#30 - 2015-01-20 12:10:26 UTC
Zahara Cody wrote:
That's a wall of text for I don't know but I better make myself sound important like the self appointed MD weasel that I am.


Don't forget a lot people do take that weasel very serious.

"Dogma is kind of like quantum physics, observing the dogma state will change it." ~ CCP Prism X

"Schrödinger's Missile. I dig it." ~ Makari Aeron

-= "Brain in a Box on Singularity" - April 2015 =-

Nicholas Chrysus
Xybercon Laboratories
#31 - 2015-01-20 12:14:14 UTC
TheSmokingHertog wrote:
Zahara Cody wrote:
That's a wall of text for I don't know but I better make myself sound important like the self appointed MD weasel that I am.
Don't forget a lot people do take that weasel very serious.
Not to mention that the "wall of text" makes plenty of sense. That said, if a trustworthy third party were to agree with the OP over collateral, that would be enough for many of us, so really it's all about speaking with the third party and ensuring they are happy with the quality and location of the collateral.

Chrysus Industries - Savings made simple!

The new savings bank for EVE online.

Koniforous
Tauren Transit
#32 - 2015-01-20 12:19:29 UTC
Zahara Cody wrote:
That's a wall of text for I don't know but I better make myself sound important like the self appointed MD weasel that I am.

VV knows his **** and he just detailed what everyone is thinking, for Your benefit. Have some respect.
Angelica Everstar
#33 - 2015-01-20 13:15:02 UTC
"self appointed MD weasel"

Sure ... When I think of VV, it's precise that...
Or that you have no clue who is who in MD Roll

§ Current Bond AE09 1 Trillion / Acc. 4,5t ISK

ƒ Want to become a better trader ?

¢ Pls help support EVEs charities!

@EveEntrepreneur

Vaerah Vahrokha
Vahrokh Consulting
#34 - 2015-01-20 14:56:11 UTC  |  Edited by: Vaerah Vahrokha
Koniforous wrote:
Zahara Cody wrote:
That's a wall of text for I don't know but I better make myself sound important like the self appointed MD weasel that I am.

VV knows his **** and he just detailed what everyone is thinking, for Your benefit. Have some respect.


Thank you and the other people in here who understood my good intentions!





@Zahara Cody

I'll try be shorter and to the point about why I posted the "wall of text":


  • I had noticed the investment is not attracting massively huge interest. That's what pushed me to post.
  • I am was a perspective investor able to fill one third of your whole loan, hence my interest. I could have "bootstrapped" the loan and others could have followed.
  • I am a third party service and collateral holder since several years. And a trader. Pricing stuff is my job and collateral holding is one of my professions. I offered an insight of what - in the eyes of a collateral holder - may be seen as weak points.



Your collateral is massive to manage, partly highly illiquid, partly speculative and subject to wild price changes (expecially over 6 months+), and does not safely cover the loan.

You may review your offer to make it more appetible.
Nicholas Chrysus
Xybercon Laboratories
#35 - 2015-01-20 16:43:58 UTC
Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:

  • I had noticed the investment is not attracting massively huge interest. That's what pushed me to post.
  • I am was a perspective investor able to fill one third of your whole loan, hence my interest. I could have "bootstrapped" the loan and others could have followed.
  • I am a third party service and collateral holder since several years. And a trader. Pricing stuff is my job and collateral holding is one of my professions. I offered an insight of what - in the eyes of a collateral holder - may be seen as weak points.


Your collateral is massive to manage, partly highly illiquid, partly speculative and subject to wild price changes (expecially over 6 months+), and does not safely cover the loan.

You may review your offer to make it more appetible.
To be fair, his main reason for not attracting investors is that he's not got a third party on board yet. If Chribba for example were in here and in agreement that the collateral is suitable, many people would be happy with that. You are most likely correct that the collateral wouldn't be enough to satisfy a third party, but sitting here arguing over valuation isn't going to get anywhere.

Chrysus Industries - Savings made simple!

The new savings bank for EVE online.

Vaerah Vahrokha
Vahrokh Consulting
#36 - 2015-01-20 17:09:19 UTC
Nicholas Chrysus wrote:
To be fair, his main reason for not attracting investors is that he's not got a third party on board yet. If Chribba for example were in here and in agreement that the collateral is suitable, many people would be happy with that. You are most likely correct that the collateral wouldn't be enough to satisfy a third party, but sitting here arguing over valuation isn't going to get anywhere.


Here's my reasonment:
Usually loans / bonds of this magnitude get published with everything pre-arranged, including third party holder.
Coming with a name is important, as it alone gives momentum to the offer. A name shows that a trusted (or, in case of Chribba, the most trusted) service deemed the business feasible and sound enough to underwrite it with his name.

If the offer comes without pre-arranged collateral holder then investors have no choice but make their own valuations.
Zahara Cody
Imperial Corrections Service.
#37 - 2015-01-20 17:27:17 UTC  |  Edited by: Zahara Cody
This place lacks some good drama.

What is your experience with selling AT ships, VV?

Hating is free, that's why poor people do it the best.

Nicholas Chrysus
Xybercon Laboratories
#38 - 2015-01-20 17:49:40 UTC
Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:
Here's my reasonment:
Usually loans / bonds of this magnitude get published with everything pre-arranged, including third party holder.
Coming with a name is important, as it alone gives momentum to the offer. A name shows that a trusted (or, in case of Chribba, the most trusted) service deemed the business feasible and sound enough to underwrite it with his name.

If the offer comes without pre-arranged collateral holder then investors have no choice but make their own valuations.
Understandable, but it will be dependent on a trusted 3rd party collateral holder, so it will be their valuation that matters. Everyone else's is irrelevant, and publicly you're unlikely to ever come to an agreement over the value of collectible items such as these.

The only real questions people need to answer is: If this were sufficiently collateralised in the opinion of a trusted third party capable of handling a bond of this size, would you be interested in investing at the given rate? Whether or not it meets the criteria of "sufficiently collateralised" is up to the third party to decide, and if they erred in that assessment I would expect them to shoulder that.

Chrysus Industries - Savings made simple!

The new savings bank for EVE online.

ISD Decoy
ISD Community Communications Liaisons
ISD Alliance
#39 - 2015-01-20 18:56:57 UTC
Quote:
2. Be respectful toward others at all times.

The purpose of the EVE Online forums is to provide a platform for exchange of ideas, and a venue for the discussion of EVE Online. Occasionally there will be conflicts that arise when people voice opinions. Forum users are expected to be courteous when disagreeing with others.

I have removed a reply. Please be respectful at all times, even if there is disagreement.

ISD Decoy

Captain

Community Communication Liaisons (CCLs)

Interstellar Services Department

Droodid
Antec Enterprises
#40 - 2015-01-20 21:41:11 UTC
Seeing as my perfectly reasonable (honest) post was removed, I'll rephrase.

It's a bad idea to come in here asking for a sizable investment and then proceed to rubbish a perfectly acceptable post from a highly respected MD regular. You'll alienate quite a few people who actually have the liquidity to loan you ISK in the quantity you want.

That being said, do you have any idea who your third party is; and are you willing to reveal any information about how you intend to meet your sizable interest payments?

Of course, should you decide to completely ignore my questions and simply "devastated" me. I'll be devastated (honest).
Previous page123Next page