These forums have been archived and are now read-only.

The new forums are live and can be found at https://forums.eveonline.com/

Player Features and Ideas Discussion

 
  • Topic is locked indefinitely.
 

Primary weapons for all tier 3 ships
Author
Previous Topic Next Topic
LeHarfang
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#61 - 2011-12-16 05:23:24 UTC
Joe Risalo wrote:
Icarus Helia wrote:
Joe Risalo wrote:
Zarnak Wulf wrote:
I have perfect missile skills. I tried out the torpedo naga when it was on SISSI. It sucked.


Again though, that's not cause the Naga sucks with missiles, it's cause missiles suck at pvp.


the only good missiles are heavy missiles, and that's only because they hit everything for mediocre damage with some level of certainty.

light missiles, rockets, HAMs, torps and cruise are horribad at hitting anything that isn't sitting still, and painted to carrier sizes, or just have terrible range and damage to begin with.

capital missiles...hitting capitals? LOL! meanwhile moros and rev can fire 2-3 volleys and be done with most battleships at range,and if theyre webbed and painted even up close.

real issue is definitely with missiles - not the naga sucking with them. so yes I am glad they buffed the naga by giving it real bonuses instead of EFT warrior bonuses.



Yeah, but I still much prefer that CCP work on balancing missiles, instead of turning Caldari into another hybrid race so that they can compete in pvp.

I love missiles, but i'm pretty much not gonna use anything but a drake because of it's tank and a bomber because of bombs and cloaks for pvp. I don't want to train for turrets to pvp because I have other things I would like to train for without waisting my time.

So again I say buff missile velocity a lot, reduce flight time a lot, balance accel time so they still have the same range.
Then maybe buff target painters a little so it doesn't take 3 Phased weapon Navigation array generation extrons in order to do effective dps. 2 makes sense, but requiring 3 is pretty rediculous.


Buffing missiles? You're kidding right?!?! Might as well just make the switch to rail guns. Instant damage on those.

I mean, trying to do guerilla warfare with missiles is stupid. You need a good alpha strike and missiles (like drones) suck at it. I'm pretty sure a Naga with missiled would actually be worse then it is right now and boosting missiles would break drones and rail guns.

You'll need to train your hybrid and gunnery skills if you want to pilot the Naga. No choice.

It would'nt happens if Caldari's missile boats could use a couple of guns to support the missiles. But hybrids have been underpowered for so long that caldari pilots like you never even bothered to train hybrids. Plus it balances the 2 races since Caldari and Gallente are supposed to be on par, military and story wise and since they were once allied together, it makes sense that they use a weapon system based on the same technology (blasters for gallente, rails for Caldari).
Bearilian
Man Eating Bears
#62 - 2011-12-16 06:59:18 UTC  |  Edited by: Bearilian
im conflicted. first i think the naga is fine with hybrids. but because missiles are relitively considered to be not recomended for pvp, it would have been nice to see a bc with missiles (seige) meant for just that. but not gona complain cause there are plenty other options out there. +1 and +0 Bear
Screenlag
Armaggedon Inc.
Shadow Cartel
#63 - 2011-12-16 09:08:37 UTC
I am a caldari pilot and I have almost perfect blaster skills, and I still prefer the ferox over the naga lol. Seriously though, buff the tier 1 battlecruisers!
Joe Risalo
State War Academy
Caldari State
#64 - 2011-12-16 20:10:35 UTC
LeHarfang wrote:

Buffing missiles? You're kidding right?!?! Might as well just make the switch to rail guns. Instant damage on those.


It's not really a buff. It's exchanging flight time for more velocity. You can even go as far as saying, since it's in space and missiles have no drag on them, then they continue to accelerate until they burn out or hit their target. So essentially, the firther away a target is, the faster the missile gets before it gets there. However, that might be kinda hard to code, so instead, just reduce flight time and increase velocity.

It's not a buff so much as it is a balance. It's a balance to make missiles more effective in mixed fleets in either pve or pvp, but also to give missiles a fighting chance against turret boats. Sure, there are missile boats out there that can take down a turret boat in 1v1, but the outcome is either determined by dps or tank of the missile boat. If you took two ships with all equal stats and the same rate of fire with no outlying factors. So they do equal volley damage at equal range, both having the same tank, the turret boat will win every time because it's killing volley will land before the missile boat's killing volley, and if the turret boat is aligned, it can actually escape before the killing missile volley reaches it. This is an unfair advantage.
This is why I suggest increasing missile velocity.

Quote:
I mean, trying to do guerilla warfare with missiles is stupid. You need a good alpha strike and missiles (like drones) suck at it. I'm pretty sure a Naga with missiled would actually be worse then it is right now and boosting missiles would break drones and rail guns.

Boosting missile velocity doesn't break drones, and it sure as hell wouldn't break hybrids beyond being broken more than the system has caused, but that's a different story. You're right though, drones and missiles are both terribad for alpha, however, they have other situations that make drones a bit more effective in pvp than missiles. For instance, drones can be set on a target, and even if you lose a lock on the target, or the target leaves your drone control range, the drones will still continue to engage the target. They never have to reload, and if you're using combat drones, they only have to approach once. Missiles constantly have to approach. You can say that missiles have fof in the even that they are jammed or dampened, but fof missiles are broken in pvp as well because they will either engage drones, or they'll engage fleet members that have you locked for cap transfer or rep.
I have been in situations before where I have had more dps than the drone boat next to me, but because the drone boat had turrets and sentry drones, he was able to engage and take down the target before I could and thus causing me to waist volleys.
While drones may not be effective in guerilla warfare, they're very effective in fleet warfare on small or large scale because they can become a huge neucance and require high end coordination for the fleet defending against them because one bad smart bomb can destroy friendly fleet members, friendly combat drones, and friendly rep drones, and those factor can play a huge part in the outcome of the battle. Missiles, however, are never a deciding factor in a battle. The missile boats can easily be replaced by drone or turret boats and give that fleet a better fighting chance. The only time missiles work towards a fleets advantage is when the entire fleet is composed of missile boats, however, the missiles aren't the deciding factor of the battle, but instead, the fleet's coordination and tanking ability are the primary factors. Just watch the aliance tournaments some time. The missile boat fleets will either rely on range, or a turtle tank in order to win the fight. however, one minor thing can greatly ruin their chances such as an interceptor snagging one of the kiting missile boats, a well place bomb in the middle of the turtle tank, a smart bomb in the middle of the turtle taking out rep drones, or even something as small as jamming or dampening one of the kiting missile boats, or the logistics.
Quote:

It would'nt happens if Caldari's missile boats could use a couple of guns to support the missiles. But hybrids have been underpowered for so long that caldari pilots like you never even bothered to train hybrids. Plus it balances the 2 races since Caldari and Gallente are supposed to be on par, military and story wise and since they were once allied together, it makes sense that they use a weapon system based on the same technology (blasters for gallente, rails for Caldari).


We'll do a comparison. of gallente to caldari using t1 bc's and bs's.
Brutix - pvp capable assuming hybrids are working correctly
Myrmidon - same, but with drones to boot
Tier 3 bc's on both side are capable, but both use turrets.
Ferox - capable, but turret boat.
Drake - capable, but only cause of tank and high mids for ewar.
Domi - capable with drones
Mega - capable
Hyperion - capable
Scorpion - Capable, but only cause of ewar
Raven - Hell no
Rokh - capable turret boat.

In the event of all ships, the one capable of pvp are primarily turret boats and/or drone boats. The missile boat that are capable are only capable because of other funcitons. it's like this in every ship class. Missiles are only pvp viable if they come with another factor, and even then the ship isn't their because it has missiles, but because has other capabilities, like the scorpion, tengu, and drake, which all have other factors that effect this and would be much more effective if they had turrets, and would probably need to be rebalanced because they would be OP, but yet with missiles they need other factors in order to become pvp capable, just look at the mga vs raven. Assentially the same ship, but with different weapons. Yet, most ppl wouldn't be cought dead in a raven for pvp.
tankus2
HeartVenom Inc.
#65 - 2011-12-17 00:24:50 UTC
Ravens can actually be hilarious in PVP, especially if its the rare solo encounter.

had a buddy in a torp-raven MWD towards a guy in a geddon. Because of how fast he was going, the raven's torps just kept getting added to the ball of light, so by the time the raven bumped into the geddon, 3-4 volleys of torps hit it at the same time, almost insta-poping it!

even when you consider the lag between a cruise-raven's fire and the actual hit, a raven actually works well. And those extra two slots allow it to be an emergency RR boat.

Where the science gets done
Mike Whiite
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#66 - 2011-12-19 11:47:39 UTC
Velicitia wrote:
Mike Whiite wrote:

The Caldari missile/ Gellante Drone, comparisation when it comes to weapon systems is an other miss used argument, the Number of Gellante drone boats don´t come close to the number of Caldari Missile ships.



Lots of stats

so, drones are significantly more the secondary weapon system for the Gallente (80/20 Hybrid/Drones)than Hybrids are for Caldari (55/45 Missile/Turret ... based on bonuses alone, somewhere from 70/30 to 50/50 if we're looking JUST at what things can fit). Difference is, Gallente pilots don't neglect their drones in favour of their hybrids...


If you look at the stats you've posted you see the answer.

I see 16 ships with a dronebay.

Making the Drones indeed a very good secondairy weapon to the Gallente, usable on all Ships.

now here is the big difference.

Those Drones make all Gallente ships better, unlike Missile and Hybrides it´s either one of the other, most younger Caldari Pilots probably have higher drones skills than either Missile or Hybrids.

Secondly the SP difference between Drones, Hybrid and Missile, Hybrid

Gallente:

Based on sub cap

Drones: 11.520.000 sp (includes mining repair and ewar drones)[Excludes salvage drones, Fighters, fighter bombers and advanced drone inter facing]

Hybrids 16.896.000 sp [excludes Cap hybrids and tactical weapon reconfiguration]

totals 25.856.000

Based on the entire skill tree;

Drones: 19.968.000 sp [still excluding salvage drones]

Hybrids 20.736.000 sp

Totals: 40.704.000 Sp

Caldari:

Based on Sub Cap

Missiles: 17.408.000 [Excludes: Defender missiles, F.o.F. missiles, Bombs, Citadel Cruise and torps]

Hybrids 16.896.000 sp [excludes Cap hybrids and tactical weapon reconfiguration]

Totals 34.304.000 Sp

Based on entire skill tree

Missiles 23.736.000 sp

Hybrids 20.736.000 sp

Totals 44.472.000 sp


There is a gap of 10.000.000 SP there, for weapon system that isn't usable together with the race's other weapon system (Merlin half).
So yeah I don't consider the Gallente Hybrid Drone tree something to compare with the missile Hybrid tree of the Caldari.

It's more like the Minmatar Tree with Missiles and Projectile/Artillery, only they have an about 80% - 20% between Projectile/Artillery and Missile ships, instead of 45% - 55%.

Which generaly allows you to fly half the ships effectively.
Aglais
Ice-Storm
#67 - 2011-12-19 16:59:48 UTC
Caldari use hybrids and missiles. Get over it.

Besides, the Naga used to be able to deploy torps. It was the worst T3 BC until it was made hybrids only. Now it is one of the first ships to make railguns useful, and is actually frightening with blasters as well.
Velicitia
XS Tech
#68 - 2011-12-19 18:44:26 UTC  |  Edited by: Velicitia
Mike Whiite wrote:
(stuff)

There is a gap of 10.000.000 SP there, for weapon system that isn't usable together with the race's other weapon system (Merlin half).
So yeah I don't consider the Gallente Hybrid Drone tree something to compare with the missile Hybrid tree of the Caldari.

It's more like the Minmatar Tree with Missiles and Projectile/Artillery, only they have an about 80% - 20% between Projectile/Artillery and Missile ships, instead of 45% - 55%.

Which generaly allows you to fly half the ships effectively.



Looks like that's taking everything to 5, and I'm assuming T2 guns/missiles as well?

Yeah, you're right that to make "full use" of all their ships, they're burning 10m more SP in offence modules -- though I wonder if that 10m SP isn't made up somewhere else (say in tanking?)

One of the bitter points of a good bittervet is the realisation that all those SP don't really do much, and that the newbie is having much more fun with what little he has. - Tippia
Joe Risalo
State War Academy
Caldari State
#69 - 2011-12-19 20:19:53 UTC
Velicitia wrote:
Mike Whiite wrote:
(stuff)

There is a gap of 10.000.000 SP there, for weapon system that isn't usable together with the race's other weapon system (Merlin half).
So yeah I don't consider the Gallente Hybrid Drone tree something to compare with the missile Hybrid tree of the Caldari.

It's more like the Minmatar Tree with Missiles and Projectile/Artillery, only they have an about 80% - 20% between Projectile/Artillery and Missile ships, instead of 45% - 55%.

Which generaly allows you to fly half the ships effectively.



Looks like that's taking everything to 5, and I'm assuming T2 guns/missiles as well?

Yeah, you're right that to make "full use" of all their ships, they're burning 10m more SP in offence modules -- though I wonder if that 10m SP isn't made up somewhere else (say in tanking?)


The way I see it is as such
Everyone should train for t2 light and Med drones.
Gallente are proficient in pvp and pve by training hybrids but have the option to train for t2 heavy and sentry drones.
Smart can train energy turrets and be effective in both, with a slight missile option.
Minmatar can focus turrets or missiles but prefer mostly turrets for dual viability.
Caldwari however have missile boats that are limited in pvp effectiveness and turrets that have limited over effectiveness, so they are generally forced to train both to be fully effective in pvp and over, thus requiring much more SP.
Korg Tronix
Mole Station Nursery
#70 - 2011-12-19 20:32:11 UTC
Joe Risalo wrote:

Caldwari however have missile boats that are limited in pvp effectiveness and turrets that have limited over effectiveness, so they are generally forced to train both to be fully effective in pvp and over, thus requiring much more SP.


They dont need to train Hybrids at all to be effective, I am a predominantly Caldari pilot and I have only recently trained small blasters and still havent trained anything else

Evil: If I were creating the world I wouldn't mess about with butterflies and daffodils. I would have started with lasers, eight o'clock, Day One! [zaps one of his minions accidentally, minion screams]
Mike Whiite
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#71 - 2011-12-20 10:06:39 UTC
Velicitia wrote:
Mike Whiite wrote:
(stuff)

There is a gap of 10.000.000 SP there, for weapon system that isn't usable together with the race's other weapon system (Merlin half).
So yeah I don't consider the Gallente Hybrid Drone tree something to compare with the missile Hybrid tree of the Caldari.

It's more like the Minmatar Tree with Missiles and Projectile/Artillery, only they have an about 80% - 20% between Projectile/Artillery and Missile ships, instead of 45% - 55%.

Which generaly allows you to fly half the ships effectively.



Looks like that's taking everything to 5, and I'm assuming T2 guns/missiles as well?

Yeah, you're right that to make "full use" of all their ships, they're burning 10m more SP in offence modules -- though I wonder if that 10m SP isn't made up somewhere else (say in tanking?)


First yeah that's the whole tree and everything up to 5.

And it's very nice that this might or might not be corrected with tankning (I doubt it) But that still makes Gallente Drones a terribile example for a comparisation towards missiles/Hybrids which was the original statement.