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Do you unconsciously associate the Empires with RL nationalities?

Author
Hasikan Miallok
Republic University
Minmatar Republic
#41 - 2015-01-19 00:24:35 UTC
I have always seen the Amarr with the ornate ships, religious zealotry and crusades and slavery as more Turkish/Middle Eastern.
Snagletooth Johnson
Snagle Material Services
CAStabouts
#42 - 2015-01-19 00:36:10 UTC
Hasikan Miallok wrote:
I have always seen the Amarr with the ornate ships, religious zealotry and crusades and slavery as more Turkish/Middle Eastern.

Ive pointed out several times before Amarr is more closley tied to Byzantines/Persian/Ottoman Empires, but I always get shouted down by the SJW who insists Amarr are "Murican Southern Bible Thumpers, and thats why we hate them!"
Ralph King-Griffin
New Eden Tech Support
Transgress
#43 - 2015-01-19 00:40:41 UTC
Blobskillz McBlub wrote:
minmatar are black space Vikings

caldari are a japanese / german mix space Vikings

gallente are a Frrench / USA mix space Vikings

Amarr are the space Vatikan space Vikings

altered your post somewhatBlink
45thtiger 0109
Brave Collective
#44 - 2015-01-19 00:50:54 UTC  |  Edited by: 45thtiger 0109
Nimrod vanHall wrote:
I see the Caldari as a Japanese , Korean fusion , joined by Some (Dutch) multinationals.
I see the Galente as the Europeaan Union.
I see the Amarr as a super mighty Iran
I see the Minmatar as the Brazille / India


And people from Australia what would you associate them too ?

**You Have to take the good with the bad and the bad with the good.

Welcome to EvE OnLiNe**

Unezka Turigahl
Det Som Engang Var
#45 - 2015-01-19 01:15:26 UTC
Snagletooth Johnson wrote:
Hasikan Miallok wrote:
I have always seen the Amarr with the ornate ships, religious zealotry and crusades and slavery as more Turkish/Middle Eastern.

Ive pointed out several times before Amarr is more closley tied to Byzantines/Persian/Ottoman Empires, but I always get shouted down by the SJW who insists Amarr are "Murican Southern Bible Thumpers, and thats why we hate them!"


Well the Amarr do have a lot of that fire and brimstone talk to them, particularly in promotional videos. I think people like to find present day matches for the factions. But yeah, all people have to do is look at the system names and NPC character names to see the inspiration for Amarr. There are no systems named Nascar or BuddahBeansNBiscuits.
Ria Nieyli
Amok.
Goonswarm Federation
#46 - 2015-01-19 02:40:05 UTC
Varathius wrote:
Provence Tristram wrote:
This isn't meant to be a hit-piece of a thread, and I would hope that people can behave themselves.

However, it occurred to me that, since I started playing EVE back in 2004, I have constantly heard the Gallente referred to as 'the French,' and that -- during that same time -- I have kind of come to see the other nations as being tied to real-world nationalities. This is my list, as I see EVE's geopolitical and cultural landscape:

Gallente: I don't just view them as French, per se, but western European as a whole. I think they embody just as many elements of modern Dutch and Belgian culture, as well as even some aspects of British liberalism (their ships also, for whatever reason, remind me a bit of British naval architecture in the First World War, though I cannot lay my finger on why), as they do France.

Amarr: They're Byzantine Imperials. It just fits: a Roman/Christian homogenization that embraced widespread slavery, simultaneously hell bent on spreading the word of God via force, and constantly battling what were seen as 'unruly masses' on all fronts. The only thing that doesn't work is that the Amarr themselves look Scandavian to me, which obviously wouldn't fit. Culturally, however, it's mostly a lock... though I think the more puritanical aspects of the Amarr also remind me a bit of the South African Boers of the late 19th century.

Caldari: Germans. No question about this one. Germany is the economic powerhouse of Europe, and has increasingly traded its abandoned Prussian stoicism for rampant commercialism run-amuck.

Minmatar: I went back and forth on this one. I think they are either post-Nixon China (an ethnically-diverse, rising power eager to flex its new muscle on a world stage), or possibly someplace like Vietnam (a little guy who shocked a superpower).

Interestingly, while I see a lot of European influence in the races, there's absolutely none that I look at and say "that's America." Maybe that was intentional on the part of CCP, but I don't get strong U.S. overtones from either the Caldari or the Gallente (the two most likely candidates), and there aren't enough diehard Christians left in America to make us the Amarr (plus, I challenge you to find any upstanding modern American who would willingly associate us with slavery, outside a historical context).


Gallente as western Europeans ? You trolling or something ??? Ever heard of the Spanish and Portuguese conquistadores ? they were (next to the British of course) some of the most pro-Slaves nations in the history of the universe. Not to mention, the Spanish especially killed everything and asked questions later, if even... The Portuguese had a great time however making babies with their slaves in their colonies, thus, Brazil was born. Doesn't sound like Gallente to me lol.

Amarr as Scandinavian looking? I can agree with the rest you wrote about Amarr but Scandinavian looking, haha...well, perhaps in latest 20 years or so with that middle eastern immigration wave they have, they actually might.

Caldari: I think Caldari fits Murica much better. Yes, Germany is the EU powerhouse but they are too weak to give the lazy and corrupt EU nations the boot in the rear which deserve it, instead, they keep giving them more money. That sound like the Caldari to you?

Minmatar. As you described them, you rather reminded them to me as South Americans. Basically, South America could be a super power but it manages to fail at it constantly due to corruption, old laws written 300+ years ago that haven't changed, and the current own military productions they have are mostly sold to themselves, their neighbor's or to 3rd World Countries due to it being meh war material.


Spot the angry German.

As for the topic, no, I don't associate IRL countries with ingame ones.
Provence Tristram
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#47 - 2015-01-19 04:06:15 UTC
Snagletooth Johnson wrote:
Hasikan Miallok wrote:
I have always seen the Amarr with the ornate ships, religious zealotry and crusades and slavery as more Turkish/Middle Eastern.

Ive pointed out several times before Amarr is more closley tied to Byzantines/Persian/Ottoman Empires, but I always get shouted down by the SJW who insists Amarr are "Murican Southern Bible Thumpers, and thats why we hate them!"


*Nods* I agree. As I said in my OP, they're the Byzantine Empire through and through.
Hasikan Miallok
Republic University
Minmatar Republic
#48 - 2015-01-19 04:17:14 UTC  |  Edited by: Hasikan Miallok
Provence Tristram wrote:
Snagletooth Johnson wrote:
Hasikan Miallok wrote:
I have always seen the Amarr with the ornate ships, religious zealotry and crusades and slavery as more Turkish/Middle Eastern.

Ive pointed out several times before Amarr is more closley tied to Byzantines/Persian/Ottoman Empires, but I always get shouted down by the SJW who insists Amarr are "Murican Southern Bible Thumpers, and thats why we hate them!"


*Nods* I agree. As I said in my OP, they're the Byzantine Empire through and through.


There is nothing about Amarr culture (other than slaves) that is even vaguely southern bible belt.



45thtiger 0109 wrote:


And people from Australia what would you associate them too ?


Well clearly being the "Great South Land" it is either Khanid or potentially Stain.
Badel Jramodarr
#49 - 2015-01-19 04:42:39 UTC
I could but I don't.
I associate their own game lore to the Empires and factions.
Shiloh Templeton
Cheyenne HET Co
#50 - 2015-01-19 04:59:17 UTC  |  Edited by: Shiloh Templeton
Mara Rinn wrote:
I've always viewed Amarrians as the most "USA-like" of the empires: an economy based on slave labour, ultra-religious, ultra-fanatical about everything they do.
Hard to make that case when America elected Obama twice and after watching a night of morality on American TV.

While possibly true in 1880 after the Civil War, I associate America as in a transition from Caldari values of the 1950's to Minmatar as it embraces a slave morality. Wikipedia
Morihei Akachi
Doomheim
#51 - 2015-01-19 05:33:38 UTC
Provence Tristram wrote:

Amarr: They're Byzantine Imperials.

Brilliant. I have always associated the Amarr with the Roman Empire, but the Byzantines are so much better. Chapeau.

Question for the loremakers at CCP, then: Do you feel at all inspired, when you're working on developments in the politics etc. of the Empires, by real-world histories of actual nations or groups of nations, such as the Byzantines? Or is New Eden so different, in your view, that when you're thinking about Amarrian or Caldari current events actual history doesn't seem very helpful?

"Enduring", "restrained" and "ample" as designations for starship components are foreign to the genre of high-tech science fiction and don’t belong in Eve Online. (And as for “scoped” …)

Nami Kumamato
Perkone
Caldari State
#52 - 2015-01-19 06:20:30 UTC
The Caldari = Japan + Germany had a baby. There is no joke, the baby is currently hard at work to fulfill its quota.
The Amarr = It's what would happen if you melted Christianity and Islam together then added a bit of Arianism for good measure.
The Gallente = The French. Their ships look French. They look French. I bet their CQ smells of Number 5 and baguettes and it looks French. Liberte, fraternite and all that good stuff...
Minmatar = Space thug-life.Word.

Fornicate The Constabulary !

Indahmawar Fazmarai
#53 - 2015-01-19 07:51:38 UTC
Morihei Akachi wrote:
Provence Tristram wrote:

Amarr: They're Byzantine Imperials.

Brilliant. I have always associated the Amarr with the Roman Empire, but the Byzantines are so much better. Chapeau.

Question for the loremakers at CCP, then: Do you feel at all inspired, when you're working on developments in the politics etc. of the Empires, by real-world histories of actual nations or groups of nations, such as the Byzantines? Or is New Eden so different, in your view, that when you're thinking about Amarrian or Caldari current events actual history doesn't seem very helpful?


Please, make a list of nations conquered, enslaved and converted by Byzantium... oh wait: the whole history of Byzantium is that of a long and painful decadence until final disintegration.

Imperial Spain is the perfect match, I tell you. Plus, the ambient sound outside of Amarran stations is a dude speaking in Spanish. Bear
Provence Tristram
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#54 - 2015-01-19 07:56:18 UTC
Indahmawar Fazmarai wrote:
Morihei Akachi wrote:
Provence Tristram wrote:

Amarr: They're Byzantine Imperials.

Brilliant. I have always associated the Amarr with the Roman Empire, but the Byzantines are so much better. Chapeau.

Question for the loremakers at CCP, then: Do you feel at all inspired, when you're working on developments in the politics etc. of the Empires, by real-world histories of actual nations or groups of nations, such as the Byzantines? Or is New Eden so different, in your view, that when you're thinking about Amarrian or Caldari current events actual history doesn't seem very helpful?


Please, make a list of nations conquered, enslaved and converted by Byzantium... oh wait: the whole history of Byzantium is that of a long and painful decadence until final disintegration.

Imperial Spain is the perfect match, I tell you. Plus, the ambient sound outside of Amarran stations is a dude speaking in Spanish. Bear


I think the word you're looking for is 'decline.' It's a bit difficult to have a long and painful decadence. Having said that, the Byzantine Empire actually fluctuated in size for a long time. It shrank, regrew, shrank again, blossomed once more during the Crusades, and then finally met its end. Still, it was longer-lived than the Roman Empire, surviving for nearly a thousand years. I think you give them too little credit.
erg cz
Novus Unitas
Synergy of Steel
#55 - 2015-01-19 08:23:17 UTC
Gallente = EU without Iberia and Balkans + Central / Nothern Russia
Caldari = USA + Japan @ China including Eastern Russia.
Amarr = Islamic state, including southern Russia (Caucasus), Northern Africa, Iberia (Spain) and Balkans
Matar = Disorganised Africa and Southern america.
Jove = Antarktida
Vyl Vit
#56 - 2015-01-19 09:49:18 UTC  |  Edited by: Vyl Vit
What I found most intriguing about this thread (so far) was everyone's image of all these places. I'm sure the extreme stereotyping is in the spirit of fun, and fiction. Yet, I can see the hand of highly generalized (unoffending) public school history classes and "the movie" media influences.

Especially interesting were the:

Caldari - corporate/militaristic like the U.S. and Japan Being United Statesian I see where this is coming from, though I haven't actually looked at a gun in 46 years. I haven't seen a soldier or a military haircut in over twenty. Japan's culture is often mistaken for strict corporatese, when it's in fact very rigidly social.

Minmatar - black militants humorously, though I've often wondered why the Brutor are decidedly black, but the Vherokior are decidedly east Asian. This does smack of stereotype from the Vikings of Iceland (not surprsingly).

Amarr - I think trying to avoid the term "fascist" and the heavy duty censorship of some words makes them difficult to extemporize about. The slave issue...re: the Minmatar stereotype...interesting mix.

Gallente - When you'd think racially the Caldari would be Western Europe, this bunch was repeatedly picked for that. They remind me of eastern Europe, however. Not quite European. Not quite Asian. (This, too, is probably a minefield set around a scape of egos.)

The similarities can't help but be noticed. The intentions had to be the best possible given the circumstances. I was directly involved in the Civil Rights Movement in the deep south of the U.S. (Alabama). One of the founders of the Student Non-Violent Coordinating Committee (SNCC, or "Snick") once told me: Everybody's racially prejudiced, but only white people in the U.S. can be racist, because racism is having the institutional power to enforce one's racial prejudice.

I thought that was an interesting distinction for Mr. Carmichael to make. I think it's nervy and commendable of CCP (probably because it is so nervy) to dance around these lines of distinction to create our marvelous EVE back story and landscape. The politically correct among us might do well to bear in mind, it's more dangerous to toy with freedom of expression than it is to say things some people may take the wrong way.

Paradise is like where you are right now, only much, much better.

Silmas Feanarius
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#57 - 2015-01-19 10:32:32 UTC
Personally, I always thought like this:


  • Caldari: Japanese - Northern European, based on their names and also their culture of cold efficiency;
  • Amarr: Holy Roman Empire (deluding themselves in being God-chosen, not quite as brilliant as the original Roman Empire, though the Byzantine is also a good fit);
  • Minmatar: A mix of Chinese and Mexican freed slaves descended from African people.
  • Gallente: The USA... if it was founded by Frenchmen instead of mostly Englishmen.

Need more well-formatted linking.

Swearing in Sardinian.

Alastair Ormand
Mine all the things
#58 - 2015-01-19 10:54:45 UTC
Mara Rinn wrote:


The Minmatar seem to me to be more like New Zealand: racially diverse, intelligent, driven by thirst for adventure. Though New Zealanders are sheep shaggers … so what does that make Minmatar?


Fedo shaggers?

I discourage running with scissors.

Shiva Linga
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#59 - 2015-01-19 12:24:20 UTC
Amarr - Spaniards
Gallente - Bosnians
Caldari - Russia / Japan
Minmatar - Afro-americans
Sansha - Chinese
Guristas - Serbians
Angel - Germans
Blood Raiders - Vikings
Sisters of EVE - 'muricans (when youre a sistah, ur a sistah)
Drones - Italians (they just fly about and bzzzzzzzz without much damage)

Deacon Abox
Black Eagle5
#60 - 2015-01-19 14:05:04 UTC  |  Edited by: Deacon Abox
Nimrod vanHall wrote:
I see the Caldari as a Japanese , Korean fusion , joined by Some (Dutch) multinationals.
I see the Galente as the Europeaan Union.
I see the Amarr as a super mighty Iran
I see the Minmatar as the Brazille / India


First off, associations of eve groups to rl ethnic/national groups will always be perilous. That being said:

Oh no you dinnnt X

You shouldn't talk about a "Japanese Korean fusion." They are not the same. Read up on Asian history and try some current events news as well. Especially to a Korean, you equate and combine the two peoples and you should expect anywhere from a cold shoulder to punch in the nose.

Some aspects of Japanese culture and place names obviously and I think admittedly (it's been a while since I read backstory material but I do remember some stated links) were used for Caldari. But other aspects might actually better fit Minmatar. As for Korean similarity to Caldari is superficial. The corporate conglomerates (Chaebols) are a rather recent development in Korea, and bump up against an older more familial center of identity.

As for Mericuns, different aspects were parted out to Caldari, Gallente, and Amarr. Similarly for Germans between Gallente and Caldari. So much might depend on the time period or political bent of the reader.

And actually I'll stop there because the exercise is somewhat pointless.

However, if one moves away from rl nationalities, and more toward the thematic presentation of the Eve races themselves, the reflections to/on rl all becomes more interesting. I do love the amalgamation of religious fundamentalism that was used for the Amarr. It could deemed a reflection of such from either Islam, Christianity, or Judaiism.

Additionally, all of them at one point or another condoned or tolerated slavery. It does suck though that Amarr is so wrapped up in it though. Few relish the chance to roll and role a space-faring slave-owning bad guy.

I think the evolving Eve fiction has been trying ever since the beginning to loosen up the good/bad or rl group(ing) straightjackets it originally pegged the 4 races into. And ever since has been mightily trying to introduce more ambiguity to each. This is definitely a good thing.

CCP, there are off buttons for ship explosions, missile effects, turret effects, etc. "Immersion" does not seem to be harmed by those. So, [u]please[/u] give us a persisting off button for the jump gate and autoscan visuals.