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AFK Cloaking™: Ideas, Discussion, and Proposals

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Mina Sebiestar
Minmatar Inner Space Conglomerate
#321 - 2015-01-17 07:01:52 UTC
Anything that remove afk type of game play gets +1 from me.

You choke behind a smile a fake behind the fear

Because >>I is too hard
Faren Shalni
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#322 - 2015-01-17 10:08:54 UTC
Jenshae Chiroptera wrote:
Faren Shalni wrote:
the difference between an AFK cloaker in W-space and K-space is that in K-space you see him in local. In W-space this in considered normal and is accepted. ...The difference is that you know he is there and is still there. ...
The difference is that you are in a worm hole alliance that is large.

Smaller entities, run, hide, then scan for all links to their system, hope they have enough cloaked people of their own to go and sit on those worm holes links and watch for when the enemies de-cloak when leaving, then keep sitting, waiting until they think it is safe enough to destabilise the link.


Might I ask is this speaking from personal experience inside W-space in a PvP corp or is this just a nullsecer with an alt in a wh carebear corp to make him iskies because there is a huge difference

I have been in the smaller WH corps, in fact for the majority of my eve life has been in W-space. So while I can never call myself an expert I can with confidence claim to know more on Wspace than average EVE player

The simple fact is, If you want to AFK in a station/Pos because there is an neutral in local then by the same token I can AFK in space cloaked until you leave the safety of you station/pos

AFK cloaking is a mind game and if you are taking to the forums to complain about it then you already lost

So Much Space
Jenshae Chiroptera
#323 - 2015-01-17 16:19:58 UTC  |  Edited by: Jenshae Chiroptera
Daichi Yamato wrote:
New proposal:
Deployable, small enough to fit in a covert ops frig. has a four hour cool down.

When activated it ejects all docked ships from starbases and super bumps any ships out of a POS shield.
It won't happen and I believe your posts are all trolling now.
Faren Shalni wrote:
Jenshae Chiroptera wrote:
Faren Shalni wrote:
the difference between an AFK cloaker in W-space and K-space is that in K-space you see him in local. In W-space this in considered normal and is accepted. ...The difference is that you know he is there and is still there. ...
The difference is that you are in a worm hole alliance that is large.

Smaller entities, run, hide, then scan for all links to their system, hope they have enough cloaked people of their own to go and sit on those worm holes links and watch for when the enemies de-cloak when leaving, then keep sitting, waiting until they think it is safe enough to destabilise the link.
Might I ask is this speaking from personal experience inside W-space in a PvP corp ?
Over a year of personal experience. Check my killboards and alliance histories.

CCP - Building ant hills and magnifying glasses for fat kids

Not even once

EVE is becoming shallow and puerile; it will satisfy neither the veteran nor the "WoW" type crowd in the transition.
Daichi Yamato
Jabbersnarks and Wonderglass
#324 - 2015-01-17 17:05:44 UTC  |  Edited by: Daichi Yamato
Jenshae Chiroptera wrote:
Daichi Yamato wrote:
New proposal:
Deployable, small enough to fit in a covert ops frig. has a four hour cool down.

When activated it ejects all docked ships from starbases and super bumps any ships out of a POS shield.
It won't happen and I believe your posts are all trolling now.


Not trolling. Putting things in perspective for you.

Please tell me why this is so unreasonable

EVE FAQ "7.2 CAN I AVOID PVP COMPLETELY? No; there are no systems or locations in New Eden where PvP may be completely avoided"

Daichi Yamato's version of structure based decs
Faren Shalni
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#325 - 2015-01-17 19:36:05 UTC
Jenshae Chiroptera wrote:
Daichi Yamato wrote:
New proposal:
Deployable, small enough to fit in a covert ops frig. has a four hour cool down.

When activated it ejects all docked ships from starbases and super bumps any ships out of a POS shield.
It won't happen and I believe your posts are all trolling now.
Faren Shalni wrote:
Jenshae Chiroptera wrote:
Faren Shalni wrote:
the difference between an AFK cloaker in W-space and K-space is that in K-space you see him in local. In W-space this in considered normal and is accepted. ...The difference is that you know he is there and is still there. ...
The difference is that you are in a worm hole alliance that is large.

Smaller entities, run, hide, then scan for all links to their system, hope they have enough cloaked people of their own to go and sit on those worm holes links and watch for when the enemies de-cloak when leaving, then keep sitting, waiting until they think it is safe enough to destabilise the link.
Might I ask is this speaking from personal experience inside W-space in a PvP corp ?
Over a year of personal experience. Check my killboards and alliance histories.


Fair enough

So Much Space
Bullet Therapist
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#326 - 2015-01-18 05:03:16 UTC  |  Edited by: Bullet Therapist
Nikk Narrel wrote:
Eryn Velasquez wrote:
There once was a thingy called "SYSTEM SCANNING ARRAY", the description now says it`s useless.

Reactivate it. Anchorable at a POS, consuming fuel (heavy water, stront ...), visible when activated like a cyno.
Give it a cooldowntime of 3 or 4 hours, manual activation by a POS-gunner.
After activation, all ships in the system are scannable for 5 minutes.

If the camper is at the keyboard, no problem for him to warp around for the 5 minutes, if not he get's grilled.

Would even be nice in wormholes.

Wormholes would want no part in this, I feel safe in saying.

Since you did not describe a benefit to cloaked play alongside this, why are we giving Null PvE a buff with this?

It's kind of a no-brainer that null PvE can avoid most other hostiles, using the local warning system.
Why do we want to nerf the one play style that can counter this immunity?


Because local doesn't make anyone in null immune to non cloaky ships.

I think a better question is why should a cloaked ship be allowed to sit in space indefinitely without somehow being found, afk or not.
Corraidhin Farsaidh
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#327 - 2015-01-18 10:33:30 UTC
Bullet Therapist wrote:
Nikk Narrel wrote:
Eryn Velasquez wrote:
There once was a thingy called "SYSTEM SCANNING ARRAY", the description now says it`s useless.

Reactivate it. Anchorable at a POS, consuming fuel (heavy water, stront ...), visible when activated like a cyno.
Give it a cooldowntime of 3 or 4 hours, manual activation by a POS-gunner.
After activation, all ships in the system are scannable for 5 minutes.

If the camper is at the keyboard, no problem for him to warp around for the 5 minutes, if not he get's grilled.

Would even be nice in wormholes.

Wormholes would want no part in this, I feel safe in saying.

Since you did not describe a benefit to cloaked play alongside this, why are we giving Null PvE a buff with this?

It's kind of a no-brainer that null PvE can avoid most other hostiles, using the local warning system.
Why do we want to nerf the one play style that can counter this immunity?


Because local doesn't make anyone in null immune to non cloaky ships.

I think a better question is why should a cloaked ship be allowed to sit in space indefinitely without somehow being found, afk or not.


Because if it is cloaked and doing nothing there are no energy emission, light reflections, magnetic anomolies or anything else to detect.
Bullet Therapist
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#328 - 2015-01-18 11:32:46 UTC
Corraidhin Farsaidh wrote:
Bullet Therapist wrote:
Nikk Narrel wrote:
Eryn Velasquez wrote:
There once was a thingy called "SYSTEM SCANNING ARRAY", the description now says it`s useless.

Reactivate it. Anchorable at a POS, consuming fuel (heavy water, stront ...), visible when activated like a cyno.
Give it a cooldowntime of 3 or 4 hours, manual activation by a POS-gunner.
After activation, all ships in the system are scannable for 5 minutes.

If the camper is at the keyboard, no problem for him to warp around for the 5 minutes, if not he get's grilled.

Would even be nice in wormholes.

Wormholes would want no part in this, I feel safe in saying.

Since you did not describe a benefit to cloaked play alongside this, why are we giving Null PvE a buff with this?

It's kind of a no-brainer that null PvE can avoid most other hostiles, using the local warning system.
Why do we want to nerf the one play style that can counter this immunity?


Because local doesn't make anyone in null immune to non cloaky ships.

I think a better question is why should a cloaked ship be allowed to sit in space indefinitely without somehow being found, afk or not.


Because if it is cloaked and doing nothing there are no energy emission, light reflections, magnetic anomolies or anything else to detect.


It's never a good idea to use real world analogies as a balance justification for EVE, in this, or any other case. Try to make this game's physics emulate real physics and it'll stop being EVE.
Delegate
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#329 - 2015-01-18 15:13:01 UTC  |  Edited by: Delegate
Bullet Therapist wrote:
It's never a good idea to use real world analogies as a balance justification for EVE, in this, or any other case. Try to make this game's physics emulate real physics and it'll stop being EVE.


Bullet, do you believe that the strength of your argument increases linearly with the number of posts you make? You are repeating the exact same arguments you made few pages back, while disregarding all the counter-arguments made therein by several posters. I know, of course, that in your next post I will read how no valid argument was ever made against your rock-solid logic, and the like... But if anyone still consider this thread serious, read first 10 pages - they pretty much sum this issue up. What follows is repeating some rant all over again.
Syn Shi
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#330 - 2015-01-18 16:40:09 UTC
Bullet Therapist wrote:
Nikk Narrel wrote:
Eryn Velasquez wrote:
There once was a thingy called "SYSTEM SCANNING ARRAY", the description now says it`s useless.

Reactivate it. Anchorable at a POS, consuming fuel (heavy water, stront ...), visible when activated like a cyno.
Give it a cooldowntime of 3 or 4 hours, manual activation by a POS-gunner.
After activation, all ships in the system are scannable for 5 minutes.

If the camper is at the keyboard, no problem for him to warp around for the 5 minutes, if not he get's grilled.

Would even be nice in wormholes.

Wormholes would want no part in this, I feel safe in saying.

Since you did not describe a benefit to cloaked play alongside this, why are we giving Null PvE a buff with this?

It's kind of a no-brainer that null PvE can avoid most other hostiles, using the local warning system.
Why do we want to nerf the one play style that can counter this immunity?


Because local doesn't make anyone in null immune to non cloaky ships.

I think a better question is why should a cloaked ship be allowed to sit in space indefinitely without somehow being found, afk or not.



Because of the cloak? That's the reason to have a cloak isn't it? To not be found?

Seems simple to me.
Bullet Therapist
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#331 - 2015-01-18 22:24:33 UTC
Delegate wrote:
Bullet Therapist wrote:
It's never a good idea to use real world analogies as a balance justification for EVE, in this, or any other case. Try to make this game's physics emulate real physics and it'll stop being EVE.


Bullet, do you believe that the strength of your argument increases linearly with the number of posts you make? You are repeating the exact same arguments you made few pages back, while disregarding all the counter-arguments made therein by several posters. I know, of course, that in your next post I will read how no valid argument was ever made against your rock-solid logic, and the like... But if anyone still consider this thread serious, read first 10 pages - they pretty much sum this issue up. What follows is repeating some rant all over again.


So the same couldn't be said about you or anyone else here?

Quote:
...while disregarding all the counter-arguments made therein
Quoting someone's exact words and offering a written refutation is ignoring? It's easy for you to cherry pick what you want to read here, but one poster in particular has made by himself all of the arguments that are collectively used by those who've so far supported afk cloaking. Mag's has said everything that the rest of you are saying now, earlier in the thread, and I chose him to argue against on this basis, to whom I offered a rebuttal of every point that he made, which is hardly ignoring. Hell, I'm happy that he kept it up for as long as he did, he's a fun person to have a discussion with.

The reason that I keep posting on this thread is because you and a handful of other people use the same couple of disprovable statements and red herrings over and over to shout down any new person that shows up here. I think that this issue, like supercap power projection, has it's core of extreme abusers who've now had the indefensability of their favored mechanic publicly exposed and as they stand to lose the most they scream the loudest. So why shouldn't I post a rebuttal of a patently false statement that makes an extraordinary claim, one that says that local chat is tantamount to immunity for nullsec residents?
Delegate
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#332 - 2015-01-18 23:02:28 UTC  |  Edited by: Delegate
Bullet Therapist wrote:
Delegate wrote:
Bullet, do you believe that the strength of your argument increases linearly with the number of posts you make?


So the same couldn't be said about you or anyone else here?

/snip/

Quoting someone's exact words and offering a written refutation is ignoring? It's easy for you to cherry pick what you want to read here, but one poster in particular has made by himself all of the arguments that are collectively used by those who've so far supported afk cloaking. Mag's has said everything that the rest of you are saying now, earlier in the thread, and I chose him to argue against on this basis, to whom I offered a rebuttal of every point that he made, which is hardly ignoring. Hell, I'm happy that he kept it up for as long as he did, he's a fun person to have a discussion with.

The reason that I keep posting on this thread is because you and a handful of other people use the same couple of disprovable statements and red herrings over and over to shout down any new person that shows up here. I think that this issue, like supercap power projection, has it's core of extreme abusers who've now had the indefensability of their favored mechanic publicly exposed and as they stand to lose the most they scream the loudest. So why shouldn't I post a rebuttal of a patently false statement that makes an extraordinary claim, one that says that local chat is tantamount to immunity for nullsec residents?


I was wrong on one count... not the number of posts but the number of words. Either way I urge anyone new to this thread to go over the first 10 pages or so. Then, if they feel like doing a study in hairsplitting the next several pages offer some solid material, although with merit rapidly approaching 0 bits on average.
Justa Hunni
State War Academy
Caldari State
#333 - 2015-01-19 00:19:26 UTC
Bullet Therapist wrote:

If you've got cloaky eyes in a system, and you've use him before, there's a good chance I know if you're going to use him or not. If I've seen a cloaker make a move one time, I've watch listed, cataloged, and made notes on every other person on the killmail they produce, if any. By correlating this information with killboard histories, I (or potentially any player) am able to discern, with a resonable chance of success, whether that character is active or not. It's hard to have a psychological effect if the people your trying to affect know that you're impotentently sitting afk.

I think you have less of a grasp on the game mechanics than you claim. Dealing with afk cloakers and establishing system security, for those whom are interested, is a mixture of activities that requires correlating details into a bigger picture with the intent of understanding the risk posed by a situation. Cloakers are less threatening than most of the people here believe because we have the tools to understand when they're going to be active or not when they've been used. The problem is intel, more specifically, the quality of the intel relative to the risk that cloakers place themselves in.


Ok so your problem isn't with AFK cloaking it is with cloaking in general. Glad we could clear that up. If I am cloaked and AFK I'm not providing intel on anything. I'm more likely getting something to eat or dealing with spouse aggro. So your ***** is that I can cloak and report on you and you can't stop me (at least this appears to be what you're complaining about). Well since this is an AFK cloaking thread, maybe you should more your "I hate cloaking" comments to another one Big smile
Rowells
Blackwater USA Inc.
Pandemic Horde
#334 - 2015-01-19 00:44:22 UTC
Justa Hunni wrote:
Bullet Therapist wrote:

If you've got cloaky eyes in a system, and you've use him before, there's a good chance I know if you're going to use him or not. If I've seen a cloaker make a move one time, I've watch listed, cataloged, and made notes on every other person on the killmail they produce, if any. By correlating this information with killboard histories, I (or potentially any player) am able to discern, with a resonable chance of success, whether that character is active or not. It's hard to have a psychological effect if the people your trying to affect know that you're impotentently sitting afk.

I think you have less of a grasp on the game mechanics than you claim. Dealing with afk cloakers and establishing system security, for those whom are interested, is a mixture of activities that requires correlating details into a bigger picture with the intent of understanding the risk posed by a situation. Cloakers are less threatening than most of the people here believe because we have the tools to understand when they're going to be active or not when they've been used. The problem is intel, more specifically, the quality of the intel relative to the risk that cloakers place themselves in.


Ok so your problem isn't with AFK cloaking it is with cloaking in general. Glad we could clear that up. If I am cloaked and AFK I'm not providing intel on anything. I'm more likely getting something to eat or dealing with spouse aggro. So your ***** is that I can cloak and report on you and you can't stop me (at least this appears to be what you're complaining about). Well since this is an AFK cloaking thread, maybe you should more your "I hate cloaking" comments to another one Big smile

Are you really trying to harp on the semantics? I could give the example of the Intel twitch stream and my amazing wireless keyboard I walk around the house with.

Or you could accept that the issue is broad and not limited to the number of characters you can fit in a title.
Bullet Therapist
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#335 - 2015-01-19 02:12:57 UTC
Justa Hunni wrote:

Ok so your problem isn't with AFK cloaking it is with cloaking in general. Glad we could clear that up.


Yeah, this is at the heart of it. To be clear I'm not asking for cloaking to be removed from the game or the ability to instantly determine the whereabouts of a cloaker in a system, just that there be some hardcap. Other people have really sidetracked this thread but I don't think it would hurt to look at it as another risk/reward behavior, like the carrier/POS or off-grid boosting threads which probably also ought to be looked at. Unfortunately if you're not in either the 'get rid of it completely' or 'leave it alone' camp, and you offer a more moderate consideration you'll find yourself beset upon by both camps.
Jenshae Chiroptera
#336 - 2015-01-19 03:03:06 UTC
Corraidhin Farsaidh wrote:
Because if it is cloaked and doing nothing there are no energy emission, light reflections, magnetic anomolies or anything else to detect.
Actually, we can argue that it makes a dent in the dark matter fabric that we can take time to detect and get closer to where the cause of that is located.

CCP - Building ant hills and magnifying glasses for fat kids

Not even once

EVE is becoming shallow and puerile; it will satisfy neither the veteran nor the "WoW" type crowd in the transition.
Petrified
Old and Petrified Syndication
#337 - 2015-01-19 12:09:49 UTC
I am not a fan of nerfing cloaking.

AFK cloaking I have mixed feelings about and while there is a certain attraction to having the ability to hunt cloaked ships down, it creates too many opportunity to abuse legitimate intel gathering.

The idea of using Circadian Sleepers to "wake up" cloakers who are AFK (I would say defined as not having touched the EVE client in 60 minutes) has a certain level of attraction. Essentially the Circadian Sleepers would warp to and decloak the AFK ship. Any further action is up to the players to probe the formerly cloaked player down or the person who was AFK to come back to the keyboard and recloak.
1 - It removes the policing of who is AFK or not from the hands of players.
2 - It keeps the current mechanics for cloaking unchanged so long as you are not absent for more than 60 minutes from the EVE client.

Cloaking is the closest thing to a "Pause Game" button one can get while in space.

Support better localization for the Japanese Community.
Nikk Narrel
Moonlit Bonsai
#338 - 2015-01-19 14:51:12 UTC
Weekends, I knew someone would put in something I could not pass up.

Anhenka wrote:
As someone who both PvE's and PvP's in nullsec, the people who act like it's terrible for people to be ratting in nullsec kind of confuse me.

1 Apparently it's a horrible cowardly thing not to knowingly expose your ship to potentially rapid death at any second, if you are in a purely PvE ship.

2 Or a PvP ship for that matter. I think we all know how well a 1v5+ typically goes, even if the 1 is in a PvP ship. I don't yolo into a 5 man gatecamp solo while in a pvp ship, why would unwillingness to go for a 1 v Many in a PvE ship be considered against the code of honorable space bushido as written by blopsers?

You are in friendly sov Null sec, given the context of this thread.

1
Why would you be in a purely PvE fit to begin with?
I'll throw out a hypothesis, you undock in a ship with no meaningful defense, when you do not expect to NEED such a defense.
You expect to either not see any hostiles, or have some defense based on pure avoidance.

2
This AFK guy wrangled up four friends, and either used a cyno to catch you before you could run, or came in through a gate if you stood your ground... and simply waited for 5 enemy names to land on grid with you.
(Sounds like something many players could avoid, which probably explains why the cyno option is so hated)

When both sides have the freedom to choose whether they engage, then you are having a staring contest.
Each side is waiting for the other side to blink.

Both sides will choose to engage, if they think they can win.
To keep the your opponent from engaging, they must either must not notice you, or be see you as too powerful to engage.

Whether you are the guy in a cloak, or the guy in an Outpost or POS, the choices are the same.

Upgrading Local to Eliminate All AFK Influence What if Local Chat changed, Hunting the Cloaked...
RainReaper
RRN Industries
#339 - 2015-01-19 15:05:45 UTC
hmmm... i dont really think there is a problem with afk cloaking.
the one problem with it is that you will have the advantage of sending in a huge fleet easily without much cost.
the only idea i can come up with is to make it so that you cant activate a cyno for 15 sec after uncloaking a cov ops cloak.
meaning that you can be prepared to either take the person down or gtfo if you have the stabs to wistand the scams. since regular cloaks cant warp when active they should not have the cooldown. with this cov ops ships would have to decloak somewhere safe and wait the 15 secs. if he gets noticed he cloaks or gtfo. if he dosent he can warp in and deploy cyno.
the problem is not the afk cloaking. its the fact that they can instantly get in a huge fleet to blap anyone while the defender dont even have a secound to grasp the situation before its to late.
Nikk Narrel
Moonlit Bonsai
#340 - 2015-01-19 15:06:01 UTC
Bullet Therapist wrote:
Nikk Narrel wrote:
...

Since you did not describe a benefit to cloaked play alongside this, why are we giving Null PvE a buff with this?

It's kind of a no-brainer that null PvE can avoid most other hostiles, using the local warning system.
Why do we want to nerf the one play style that can counter this immunity?


1 Because local doesn't make anyone in null immune to non cloaky ships.

I think a better question is why should a cloaked ship be allowed to sit in space indefinitely without somehow being found, afk or not.

Let me take a moment, and squash this false logic before it becomes mistakenly accepted.

1
If I can see a name appear in local, and get off to a safe location where this hostile name cannot stop me, I beat them for the moment.
I can do this reliably, if I am prepared.
At that point, I can call up some friends, and possibly join them myself, and pew pew them till they leave.
Without that cloak, we can scan them down, chase them, pop them, have a merry time of it.
Obviously, if we put in the effort, they cannot endure, and we can go back to PvE stuff till the next time.

Now, if they have a CLOAK, we can't scan them down.
Sure, we can take turns doing PvE under protection, but that has limits to the patience of many players less suited to such a demanding environment.
I mean, it's not high sec, with NPC actions that can be included in defenses. You need actual players to fill those roles, which explains the higher rewards index.

Just because you can't eject them on your terms, doesn't change the fact it still takes an equal or greater number of players to beat a group.
You believe they can have a group available in moments, able to coordinate and cyno a drop on top of your ratting boat, but you cannot match their efforts.
You want the game to make their threat go away instead.

OH, wait, that is HIGH SEC. It already exists, so you don't need players sitting around to guard your PvE.
They have this thing called Concord, see....

Upgrading Local to Eliminate All AFK Influence What if Local Chat changed, Hunting the Cloaked...