These forums have been archived and are now read-only.

The new forums are live and can be found at https://forums.eveonline.com/

EVE General Discussion

 
  • Topic is locked indefinitely.
 

Awoxing is no more

First post
Author
Previous Topic Next Topic
J'Poll
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#201 - 2015-01-16 15:35:44 UTC  |  Edited by: J'Poll
Tim Timpson wrote:
J'Poll wrote:
A. All the good stories and free publicity that EVE has had over the years (some which included RL news headlines) were by the hands of those veterans.
I don;t actually remember seeing any publicity coming from the high sec pretend-pvp crowd. Most of that comes from null, and a lot of null players couldn't care less what they do to high sec.


3 Letters:

R
V
B


Who was it that managed to kil an entire server by releasing 11k frigates from a POS so that there was the biggest FFA in EVE history...

RvB

Where was this happening:

Poinen. Which is 2 jumps from JIta and last time I checked, VERY much high-sec.

They did more for the game in a month, that you will ever do in your lifetime.

Personal channel: Crazy Dutch Guy

Help channel: Help chat - Reloaded

Public roams channels: RvB Ganked / Redemption Road / Spectre Fleet / Bombers bar / The Content Club
Basil Pupkin
Republic Military School
#202 - 2015-01-16 15:38:10 UTC
J'Poll wrote:


Replies:

1. Bob should find likeminded people and play together. Bob should learn that in EVE there is no absolute safety, but with correct precautions and knowledge, it can be pretty damn safe.

2. Bob farms ISK upon ISK upon ISK. Bob devalues the currency by being able to gain ISK with ZERO risk. This not only affects himself, but EVERYBODY else.

3. Best option.

People that read about EVE and find out that it doesn't suit them and don't play...great.
People that try EVE and find out that it doesn't suit them and quit...good
People that try EVE and find out that it doesn't suit them and then whine that it should all be changed to suit them...wrong.


1. If precautions take 99% of playtime, the game is broken and all like-minded people wouldn't pay sub.
2. Bob doesn't spend any of it if he doesn't lose ships, thus not affecting you one bit. The only ISK splashing he does is for faction mods, which are exchanged for LP and go for ISK between Bob the carebear and Ben the carebear, and officer mods, which are mostly nullsec commodities, and fund null pvp. What is wrong with this?
3. Bob doesn't pay sub, even for a short while, while not affecting you one bit. Unless you are willing to pay sub for you and Bob, that is the worst option.

People that read about EVE and find out that it doesn't suit them and don't play... wrong.
People that try EVE and find out that it doesn't suit them and quit... bad, but ok.
People that try EVE and find out that it doesn't suit them and then whine that it should all be changed to suit them... good, they pay sub.

Being teh freightergankbear automatically puts you below missionbear and minerbear in carebear hierarchy.

If you're about to make "this will make eve un-eve" argument, odds are you are defending some utterly horrible mechanics against a good change.
J'Poll
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#203 - 2015-01-16 15:40:26 UTC  |  Edited by: ISD Ezwal
Aiyshimin wrote:
J'Poll wrote:


I suggest you go talk to Mr Kane first about that.

He will likely offer to teach you that high-sec has PVP too.

Or look at RvB, last time I checked, they lived in high-sec too.

Or CODE. after all, they gank a mining vessel operated by a player...hence PvP.


I think you're mixing up two things here, ganking PVE targets and player vs player combat. I'm referring to the latter. You can gank soft targets everywhere, in wormholes, null, low and hisec. It's always a lopsided affair, everybody does it when there's nothing better to do.

What hisec lacks is the latter (with the exception of RvB) is the combat, when PVP pilots meet in space and dunk each others. Wars for territory, wars over resources, fights for the sake of fights, the everyday life of lawless space.

And the people who are interested in this type of PVP simply don't exist in hisec in any relevant quantity. I'm sure you don't disagree with this categorisation either, the fleet fights, the solo PVP, the small gang action which fills all EVE news sites, trailers and youtube videos doesn't happen in hisec.


Wait,

So,

Ganking a miner in high-sec is bad.
Ganking a miner in low-sec is good.

*Snip* Please refrain from personal attacks. ISD Ezwal.



Lol.

You list war over resources...Guess what ganking miners in high-sec is doing...it's a war over resources.

p.s. The first EVE is Real trailer used a RvB fight...which was taking place in...guess....high-sec.

Personal channel: Crazy Dutch Guy

Help channel: Help chat - Reloaded

Public roams channels: RvB Ganked / Redemption Road / Spectre Fleet / Bombers bar / The Content Club
Druadan
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#204 - 2015-01-16 15:44:01 UTC
The change doesn't seem to be very 'free' or 'sandboxy'. Seems like another hatswitch built to help keep people's ships intact, except instead of being like the criminal timer hatswitch, which is explanable in RP easily, this is some sort of weird, instant informationsharing, top priority Concord-Playercorp assistance dealio, that doesn't seem to make much EVEsense.

That said, joining a corp just to attack its members is bullshit. It's too easy to do. It's bushleague, but everyone who does it seems to think they're James /b/ond, double-oh-trollen, in space. At least this way you'll have to infiltrate your way to whatever role is required for switching it, fullon GHSCstyle, first.

Also, if this helps player retention, and all it affects is the twobit highsec 'awoxers', I'd say it's a pretty good trade. More money for CCP to use fulfililng their promises.

So, probably good for the game, but less good for the original 'sandbox' principles of the game.
J'Poll
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#205 - 2015-01-16 15:45:14 UTC  |  Edited by: J'Poll
Basil Pupkin wrote:

Oh yeah, they totally didn't gut the loot value with reprocessing changes, totally didn't nerf reprocessing in hisec, and LP totally doesn't inflate.
And stating that hisec income goes anywhere near null is plain lies.


Uhm.

Most profitable mining: High-sec Ores
One of the most profitable red-cross shooting: High-sec Incursions.


p.s.

Gutting of loot value...affected null-sec more then high-sec (in particular the Drone Goo changes)
LP inflation...well, that's because there is so much safety that too many people run missions, thus generate too much LP...it's called market saturation. If your country started printing huge amount of currency, the money in your wallet would drop in value too...

Personal channel: Crazy Dutch Guy

Help channel: Help chat - Reloaded

Public roams channels: RvB Ganked / Redemption Road / Spectre Fleet / Bombers bar / The Content Club
Jenn aSide
Soul Machines
The Initiative.
#206 - 2015-01-16 15:46:15 UTC
Basil Pupkin wrote:


People that read about EVE and find out that it doesn't suit them and don't play... wrong.
People that try EVE and find out that it doesn't suit them and quit... bad, but ok.
People that try EVE and find out that it doesn't suit them and then whine that it should all be changed to suit them... good, they pay sub.


This part right here is what we are talking about, and why people hate 'carebears'. "paying a sub" doesn't mean a damn thing, the quality of the game does. People like the above would see that quality diminished so that more people like them (hapless victim types) would play the game. At the end of the day, it's one big meta-gaming attempt to rid the game of 'mean people' they don't like.

Problem is that those 'mean people' are the core of the game and without them EVE is just spread sheets in space and not a history making human experiment.
Basil Pupkin
Republic Military School
#207 - 2015-01-16 15:47:38 UTC
Inxentas Ultramar wrote:
@Basil That whole taking-down-posses only happens because people aren't planning to defend them. People don't plan to defend because that would involve spening ISK instead of making it. The PITA you describe happens because people keep building stuff they can't defend, and no matter how many times they get decced they will not invest in actual defenses out of sheer greed. And thus, the Bobs of Eve keep toiling and complaining that the deccers have more "advantage". They don't, apart from the attitude that allows them to lose stuff and still have a good time.


Grief deccers don't lose stuff, they either come in a wrecking ball to completely wipe any defense, or stay safe, because they are completely risk-averse.
Yet defenders have to stay on their toes 23/7, not playing the game, but instead "defending" something, either by getting wiped out or ignored. Neither of those options is good, fun, or offers any gameplay.

People don't fight grief decs because there is no way to get a fight out of attacker, you are either camped or dodged, and if attackers on a grief decs prefer to be dicks, it's only fair when defenders **** back at them.

Now if only there were ANY risk for the grief deccer, then grief decs would be dead and gone - insane risk-aversity at the base of grief deccing won't allow them to grief dec if there's a remote risk of getting whooped.

Being teh freightergankbear automatically puts you below missionbear and minerbear in carebear hierarchy.

If you're about to make "this will make eve un-eve" argument, odds are you are defending some utterly horrible mechanics against a good change.
J'Poll
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#208 - 2015-01-16 15:49:16 UTC
Basil Pupkin wrote:

People that read about EVE and find out that it doesn't suit them and don't play... wrong.
People that try EVE and find out that it doesn't suit them and quit... bad, but ok.
People that try EVE and find out that it doesn't suit them and then whine that it should all be changed to suit them... good, they pay sub.


Uhm...nope.

First means they just aren't the target customer.
Second, still the same.

Third, just cause you pay for something, doesn't automatically means you are entitled to it.
With that reason, CCP should listen to the vets more then new players...They paid more money to them.

Personal channel: Crazy Dutch Guy

Help channel: Help chat - Reloaded

Public roams channels: RvB Ganked / Redemption Road / Spectre Fleet / Bombers bar / The Content Club
Jenn aSide
Soul Machines
The Initiative.
#209 - 2015-01-16 15:49:43 UTC  |  Edited by: Jenn aSide
J'Poll wrote:
Basil Pupkin wrote:

Oh yeah, they totally didn't gut the loot value with reprocessing changes, totally didn't nerf reprocessing in hisec, and LP totally doesn't inflate.
And stating that hisec income goes anywhere near null is plain lies.


Uhm.

Most profitable mining: High-sec Ores
One of the most profitable red-cross shooting: High-sec Incursions.


p.s.

Gutting of loot value...affected null-sec more then high-sec (in particular the Drone Goo changes)
LP inflation...well, that's because there is so much safety that too many people run missions, thus generate too much LP...it's called market saturation. If your country started printing huge amount of currency, the money in your wallet would drop in value too...


Notice how the 'high sec folk' never have any proof of what they say. Even worse, if you provide proof, they ignore it.

I know this for a fact (TL:DR, there are very few ways in null sec to exceed this amount of isk per hour without using a capital ship), the myth of null being more profitable (in terms of single pilot pve) than high has been disproved time and again, but they cling to it because their entire argument and world view depends on it being true.
J'Poll
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#210 - 2015-01-16 15:52:38 UTC
Basil Pupkin wrote:

1. If precautions take 99% of playtime, the game is broken and all like-minded people wouldn't pay sub.
2. Bob doesn't spend any of it if he doesn't lose ships, thus not affecting you one bit. The only ISK splashing he does is for faction mods, which are exchanged for LP and go for ISK between Bob the carebear and Ben the carebear, and officer mods, which are mostly nullsec commodities, and fund null pvp. What is wrong with this?
3. Bob doesn't pay sub, even for a short while, while not affecting you one bit. Unless you are willing to pay sub for you and Bob, that is the worst option.


1.
If precautions take 99% of your time, you are seriously doing something wrong.

Been playing for 4.5 years...only ganked once...and that was because I was careless / clueless and undocked a Tayra with 4 PLEX in it when I was just 2 months in the game.

A simple:

* Tank your ship
* Keep local open
* Watch for bad people

Takes less then 1 minutes to set up and learn to use it.

2.
Uhm. Until Bob starts to buy PLEX or ammo...or puts his loot on the market etc.

3. That does not make any sense at all.

Personal channel: Crazy Dutch Guy

Help channel: Help chat - Reloaded

Public roams channels: RvB Ganked / Redemption Road / Spectre Fleet / Bombers bar / The Content Club
Logan Revelore
Symbiotic Systems
#211 - 2015-01-16 15:54:26 UTC
I don't have any experiences with AWOXING, but I do believe that implementing this toggle settings for corporations is ultimately a good thing. I don't want to support changes that take away people's tear collecting tools, but in this instance I do feel the change is warranted.

I doubt this is going to become Trammel.

Look at it from a lore perspective, CEOs across EVE have been negotiating with Concord for many years now to have their intercorporational actions fall under Concord in case of hostile actions, such that they can deal with lone lunatics.

Explain it either way you want.
Basil Pupkin
Republic Military School
#212 - 2015-01-16 15:54:48 UTC
J'Poll wrote:
Basil Pupkin wrote:

Oh yeah, they totally didn't gut the loot value with reprocessing changes, totally didn't nerf reprocessing in hisec, and LP totally doesn't inflate.
And stating that hisec income goes anywhere near null is plain lies.


Uhm.

Most profitable mining: High-sec Ores
One of the most profitable red-cross shooting: High-sec Incursions.


p.s.

Gutting of loot value...affected null-sec more then high-sec (in particular the Drone Goo changes)
LP inflation...well, that's because there is so much safety that too many people run missions, thus generate too much LP...it's called market saturation. If your country started printing huge amount of currency, the money in your wallet would drop in value too...


Null sec has rorqual buffs, same ores (and Gneiss is the most lucrative at the moment, which is not hisec ore), a lot more safety, and incursion farming requires a lot of skills trained, ISK invested, moving around, and risk is a lot more than half year old nullbear shooting anoms and farming escalations for not that much different income.

LP inflation is not because "too much" people run missions, it happens no matter how many people run missions, and only depends on amount of LP actually spent, which is why you shouldn't probably argue about economy to not display your profanity. Example with country is the same - it can cover itself in the money, but if this money isn't spent, it's just paper, not affecting anyone in any way. Bob doesn't spend his money - he doesn't lose ships, he only buys mods from Ben, thus he's not affecting any price tags you're interested in.

Being teh freightergankbear automatically puts you below missionbear and minerbear in carebear hierarchy.

If you're about to make "this will make eve un-eve" argument, odds are you are defending some utterly horrible mechanics against a good change.
J'Poll
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#213 - 2015-01-16 15:55:54 UTC  |  Edited by: J'Poll
Basil Pupkin wrote:
Inxentas Ultramar wrote:
@Basil That whole taking-down-posses only happens because people aren't planning to defend them. People don't plan to defend because that would involve spening ISK instead of making it. The PITA you describe happens because people keep building stuff they can't defend, and no matter how many times they get decced they will not invest in actual defenses out of sheer greed. And thus, the Bobs of Eve keep toiling and complaining that the deccers have more "advantage". They don't, apart from the attitude that allows them to lose stuff and still have a good time.


Grief deccers don't lose stuff, they either come in a wrecking ball to completely wipe any defense, or stay safe, because they are completely risk-averse.
Yet defenders have to stay on their toes 23/7, not playing the game, but instead "defending" something, either by getting wiped out or ignored. Neither of those options is good, fun, or offers any gameplay.

People don't fight grief decs because there is no way to get a fight out of attacker, you are either camped or dodged, and if attackers on a grief decs prefer to be dicks, it's only fair when defenders **** back at them.

Now if only there were ANY risk for the grief deccer, then grief decs would be dead and gone - insane risk-aversity at the base of grief deccing won't allow them to grief dec if there's a remote risk of getting whooped.


Hmz.

Set up POS to have a reinforce timer that assist you in the defense...easy, 2 minutes tops to set up
Set up POS so that it can defend itself (high-sec doesn't have capitals).

Set up a trap for grief deccers to catch them unsuspected with their pants down.
HIre (god forbit, I"m swearing, carebears only want to see their wallet grow, not shrink) mercs to help defend yourself. Hell, CCP actually gave you the ability to easily hire / receive help as a defending party in a war.


p.s.

If, as you claim, grief deccers don't fight when they can't win. Make sure your corp is so strong they won't attack and it actually won't affect you.

Hell, in a previous corp. We just ran missions together when under war or mined together under war...You do know that strength through numbers works in EVE too.

But, sorry, it will hurt your max efficiency goal...I know, it sucks. But less ISK/hour is still better then no ISK/hour.

Personal channel: Crazy Dutch Guy

Help channel: Help chat - Reloaded

Public roams channels: RvB Ganked / Redemption Road / Spectre Fleet / Bombers bar / The Content Club
Jenn aSide
Soul Machines
The Initiative.
#214 - 2015-01-16 15:59:51 UTC
Logan Revelore wrote:
I don't have any experiences with AWOXING, but I do believe that implementing this toggle settings for corporations is ultimately a good thing. I don't want to support changes that take away people's tear collecting tools, but in this instance I do feel the change is warranted.

I doubt this is going to become Trammel.

Look at it from a lore perspective, CEOs across EVE have been negotiating with Concord for many years now to have their intercorporational actions fall under Concord in case of hostile actions, such that they can deal with lone lunatics.

Explain it either way you want.


It's another small step in the wrong direction imo.
Tim Timpson
Solitude Trading
S.N.O.T.
#215 - 2015-01-16 16:02:52 UTC
J'Poll wrote:
Tim Timpson wrote:
Not really. they could convert 1 region to complete safety for example, reduce the reward given from activity in that region considerably, ban scamming from that region and have the higher end activity encourage people to move out of it. That wouldn't be at the expense of existing gameplay, since the existing gameplay would still exist. It would probably make a bunch of people foam at the mouth at the idea of people being safe, but we get that anyway.
Ooh, you mean like CCP did.

By making Null-sec aswel as Low-sec more profitable.

Yet NO big migration of PvE players has happened.

Why, because the vast majority of PvE players is completely risk-adverse.
They rather spent twice as long in low paying safety then better ISK for a bit more risk.
That's more because highsec is still nearly as profitable as any other space, moreso when you consider how much tougher logistics or null and low sec are. I think if they had a region which was safe but was capable of earning less than half of high sec, most experienced players would avoid it.
J'Poll
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#216 - 2015-01-16 16:05:00 UTC
Tim Timpson wrote:
J'Poll wrote:
Tim Timpson wrote:
Not really. they could convert 1 region to complete safety for example, reduce the reward given from activity in that region considerably, ban scamming from that region and have the higher end activity encourage people to move out of it. That wouldn't be at the expense of existing gameplay, since the existing gameplay would still exist. It would probably make a bunch of people foam at the mouth at the idea of people being safe, but we get that anyway.
Ooh, you mean like CCP did.

By making Null-sec aswel as Low-sec more profitable.

Yet NO big migration of PvE players has happened.

Why, because the vast majority of PvE players is completely risk-adverse.
They rather spent twice as long in low paying safety then better ISK for a bit more risk.
That's more because highsec is still nearly as profitable as any other space, moreso when you consider how much tougher logistics or null and low sec are. I think if they had a region which was safe but was capable of earning less than half of high sec, most experienced players would avoid it.


Most of the experienced players live in high-sec.

Most of the experienced players would move there to carebear to their heart's contempt.

Personal channel: Crazy Dutch Guy

Help channel: Help chat - Reloaded

Public roams channels: RvB Ganked / Redemption Road / Spectre Fleet / Bombers bar / The Content Club
Mag's
Azn Empire
#217 - 2015-01-16 16:05:43 UTC  |  Edited by: Mag's
What we have is new devs, making changes to the core of the game.

It's happening, so I'll live with it. But it should be implemented differently.

Make it an option and make it taxable if activated.

Destination SkillQueue:- It's like assuming the Lions will ignore you in the Savannah, if you're small, fat and look helpless.
Basil Pupkin
Republic Military School
#218 - 2015-01-16 16:06:28 UTC
J'Poll wrote:
Basil Pupkin wrote:
Inxentas Ultramar wrote:
@Basil That whole taking-down-posses only happens because people aren't planning to defend them. People don't plan to defend because that would involve spening ISK instead of making it. The PITA you describe happens because people keep building stuff they can't defend, and no matter how many times they get decced they will not invest in actual defenses out of sheer greed. And thus, the Bobs of Eve keep toiling and complaining that the deccers have more "advantage". They don't, apart from the attitude that allows them to lose stuff and still have a good time.


Grief deccers don't lose stuff, they either come in a wrecking ball to completely wipe any defense, or stay safe, because they are completely risk-averse.
Yet defenders have to stay on their toes 23/7, not playing the game, but instead "defending" something, either by getting wiped out or ignored. Neither of those options is good, fun, or offers any gameplay.

People don't fight grief decs because there is no way to get a fight out of attacker, you are either camped or dodged, and if attackers on a grief decs prefer to be dicks, it's only fair when defenders **** back at them.

Now if only there were ANY risk for the grief deccer, then grief decs would be dead and gone - insane risk-aversity at the base of grief deccing won't allow them to grief dec if there's a remote risk of getting whooped.


Hmz.

Set up POS to have a reinforce timer that assist you in the defense...easy, 2 minutes tops to set up
Set up POS so that it can defend itself (high-sec doesn't have capitals).

Set up a trap for grief deccers to catch them unsuspected with their pants down.
HIre (god forbit, I"m swearing, carebears only want to see their wallet grow, not shrink) mercs to help defend yourself. Hell, CCP actually gave you the ability to easily hire / receive help as a defending party in a war.


p.s.

If, as you claim, grief deccers don't fight when they can't win. Make sure your corp is so strong they won't attack and it actually won't affect you.

Hell, in a previous corp. We just ran missions together when under war or mined together under war...You do know that strength through numbers works in EVE too.

But, sorry, it will hurt your max efficiency goal...I know, it sucks. But less ISK/hour is still better then no ISK/hour.


Reinforce timers do nothing, as if there's defense, grief deccers won't show up after reinforcing your POS. You just lose stront for no benefit, no gameplay, nothing.
Defending POS modules will just get farmed. If my goal is to entertain the grief deccers, sure. Also sure it's not my goal.

Trap them... and fall in their trap for the trap setters once they call in pals for free kills on my "trap". No thank you.
Hiring mercs does NOTHING as the grief deccers won't show up or come in wrecking and wreck both you and mercs. At the same time you and mercs have to stay on your toes not playing the game because some monkey in a grief dec corp had 50 mil ISK. (and you spent at least 500 mil on useless mercs, grats). Once again, no gameplay.

Going through PITA of corp dropping is the only rational answer to grief dec - there are just no alternatives where there's anything you can do. You either fleet up and get wrecked or you fleet up and get ignored. Both of those are stupid, pointless, and boring enough to justify 24 hours of pain required to drop corp. This needs changes and NOT stick-like ones - I will not undock as long as there's just those 2 options waiting.

Being teh freightergankbear automatically puts you below missionbear and minerbear in carebear hierarchy.

If you're about to make "this will make eve un-eve" argument, odds are you are defending some utterly horrible mechanics against a good change.
Tim Timpson
Solitude Trading
S.N.O.T.
#219 - 2015-01-16 16:08:10 UTC
J'Poll wrote:
3 Letters:

R
V
B
RVB don't use awoxing for their war, they use wardecs and thus would not be affected by this change. Even so I don't remember seeing much publicity from them. I've certainly not seen them in the news headlines like I have with null battles. Perhaps they make some EVE news headlines, but then so does a lot of completely irrelevant activities.
J'Poll
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#220 - 2015-01-16 16:10:06 UTC
Basil Pupkin wrote:

Hiring mercs does NOTHING as the grief deccers won't show up or come in wrecking and wreck both you and mercs..


Okay,

A. If they don't show up, how is it affecting you?

B. If they wreck you and your mercs...hire better mercs. There are some awesome merc companies in EVE with a track record that make a lot of wardeccers run for the hills.

Personal channel: Crazy Dutch Guy

Help channel: Help chat - Reloaded

Public roams channels: RvB Ganked / Redemption Road / Spectre Fleet / Bombers bar / The Content Club