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Why does caldari militia fail? Your viewsplease
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Mutnin
SQUIDS.
#21 - 2011-12-19 12:32:54 UTC  |  Edited by: Mutnin
Amadeus3 wrote:
I've been in and out of the milita for years. The last time I went back to Caldari Milita it was in the worst shape I have known it.

IMO the biggest porblem is the quality of FCs. I didn't really appreciate it at the time but the success of WolfsBrigade was down to the organisation and FCing. We were able then to field properly configured fleets with player input, organisation and logistics. We could go toe-to-toe with the pirates corps and win. Being in a fleet was fun.

The sole tactic now is shield nano BC. You get on the filed, set keep distance to the anchor and shoot the primary. Biggest blob wins. Most of the time there is no fight because the smaller blob knows it will loose and doesn't fight. There is virtually no mental input required from the player. Being in a fleet is not fun.

Although the FCs can probably produce the odd battle report where they have been up against a organised pirate corp and won most of the time a Caldari Milita fleet is massacared by a organised pirate fleet that knows what it's doing.

This in my opion is the problem. Poor FCing and tactics creates an environment where there is nothing to aspire to as a player and it doesn't take more than about 6mths before most people will move on to improve their game.

There are some talented small gang players in the Milita and it's a great place to spend 6mths but the milita generally lacks quality at the top.


Shield BC is what it is because it works. Try to bring a T1 armor gang to the mix against a nano shield gang and in most cases the shield gang of Drakes & Arti canes are going to tear apart the armor gang.

You have to accept that this is FW which has people of all different skill sets and the easiest "useful" ship to get new players in is a nano Drake or Hurricane. Militia gangs from Gal & Gal typically aren't going to field BS or HAC gangs.. They aren't getting ship replacements from moon goo empires and when fighting is active it's not uncommon for a single pilot to lose a few ships in a day. (ie losses have to be somewhat affordable)

When I was in Minmatar there was a lot more BS vs BS & carrier type fights then but it's also because the bulk of the fighting revolved around station humping or anchoring on a gate. I dunno if they still do that but IMO those fights tended to be pretty much sit and shoot. So not like those fights were any more tactical than nano gangs whom are constantly trying to get warp ins on one another..
Stalking Mantis
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#22 - 2011-12-19 12:48:17 UTC
To be a leader one must have a strict fleet doctrine to follow and impose on his fleet members. The problem with general militia fleets and a good number of people flying in militia in general is that they lack order and discipline.

The brightest leader stars of Caldari militia like Bad Messenger, Lacco, GavinGoodrich and First General did not get to be such leaders without a proven successful formula they demanded from their fleets. Be it Draketrains Drake/Schimi/Lachesis doctrine or First Generals Abbadon/Gaurdian doctrine the common trait among the above mentioned names is that they demanded adherence to their way and to hell with anyone not wanting to abide by that.

Sure you will run into the occasional snowflake that wants to bring his autocannon thrasher to an Abaddon/Guardian Fleet. Or another Snowflake that wants to bring a blaster brutix to a drake/schimi/lachesis fleet. In such cases they will be asked to promptly ship up to what the FC asks for or leave. Sometimes they will abide other times they will start pitching a fit and be kicked from fleet.

To be a leader of a successful PVP Corporation in a PvP environment like faction warfare you need to stick to a strict code. You will make internal enemies along the way that think they know better than you do, you will run into others that will tear you down for no other reason than envy as to seeing your star rise while theirs is barely noticed. This is the price you will pay.

Think back to the movie '300'. The reason King Leonidas rejected Ephialtes plea to join him (and Ephialtes eventually selling out to the enemy) was not because of anything less than his inability to hold up to the fighting doctrine of the Spartans. The Spartans depended heavily on the shield of the man next to him to hold ranks and any weakness to the uniformity of the Phalanx meant death to all those in formation.

To take the occasional weekend PvP'er and turn him into a disciplined fighting machine that follows orders and does what is needed to win is the difference between a LEADER and an average FC that picks up gangs when he feels like it.

These leaders spawn great PvP corporations the likes of Draketrain and Wolfsbrigade to name only two.

Have a winning formula, implement it, stick to it strictly and to hell with anyone's 'feelings' if they cannot adhere to it. No weekend warrior should dictate the fighting doctrine of a well established PvP corporation.

Think of this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gI6sARmxEuc when you are in your next pick-up gang.

The Mittani hit it on the spot in one of his articles on TenTonHammer:
http://www.tentonhammer.com/eve/spymaster/65

TL;DR
To be a successful leader in a hostile environment in EVE you must be a General not a Politician a Dictator if you will.

Amarr Liason Officer Extraordinare -->Check Out Amarrian Vengeance/Amarr FW History from 2011 to 2014 https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=352629&find=unread
FIRST GENERAL
Hostile.
PURPLE HELMETED WARRIORS
#23 - 2011-12-19 14:11:42 UTC
Amadeus3 wrote:
I've been in and out of the milita for years. The last time I went back to Caldari Milita it was in the worst shape I have known it.

IMO the biggest porblem is the quality of FCs. I didn't really appreciate it at the time but the success of WolfsBrigade was down to the organisation and FCing. We were able then to field properly configured fleets with player input, organisation and logistics. We could go toe-to-toe with the pirates corps and win. Being in a fleet was fun.

The sole tactic now is shield nano BC. You get on the filed, set keep distance to the anchor and shoot the primary. Biggest blob wins. Most of the time there is no fight because the smaller blob knows it will loose and doesn't fight. There is virtually no mental input required from the player. Being in a fleet is not fun.

Although the FCs can probably produce the odd battle report where they have been up against a organised pirate corp and won most of the time a Caldari Milita fleet is massacared by a organised pirate fleet that knows what it's doing.

This in my opion is the problem. Poor FCing and tactics creates an environment where there is nothing to aspire to as a player and it doesn't take more than about 6mths before most people will move on to improve their game.

There are some talented small gang players in the Milita and it's a great place to spend 6mths but the milita generally lacks quality at the top.


Time to come home son?

;)
GavinGoodrich
Perkone
Caldari State
#24 - 2011-12-19 16:21:19 UTC  |  Edited by: GavinGoodrich
DNLeviathan wrote:


true again, problem is that cal militia does shout for leadership, but when someone steps up to the plate like i did, no-one was interested. in my relatively short period of time in cal militia, i have seen a number of people step up just to get slapped in the face and give up.


This, however it's not so much a slap in the face as much as it's a "meh" towards anything proactive to change the game up.

I attempted to change things, IMO for the better (debatable) but they were put on deaf ears. Dropped 2 billion of my own isk to fund loaner logis of every type we could give to people in a pinch. Asking for donations to continue the fund, not one time the wallet flashed. This is in contrast to 2 years ago when we were unified and we all put billions into a capital ship fund (which was returned the best I could before the "exodus.")

Not wanting to stir up **** when I just got back when people doubted if I would even stay this time, I politely suggested things that were ignored entirely. Addressing issues of all our corps spread through hysera, rakkapas, enaluri and highsec were also recieved on deaf ears.

Resulting in no more than 10-15 man fleets, peak North American time, vs. 20+, 30+, sometimes even 40+ by comparison on the other side. Was unable to do pretty much anything effective, so am stepping out, going 0.0 again.

Haaaaaalp my head's on fire
X Gallentius
Black Eagle1
#25 - 2011-12-19 16:45:52 UTC
Corporations and pilots always return to the Federation Militia after venturing to "greener pastures".

The key, as Gallactica pointed out, was that when times were tough, a core group of Federation corporations banded together and weathered the storm. Now we're a pretty tight knit militia overall. We fly with everybody in other corporations all the time.

From what I've seen, pilots in the Caldari militia leave and stay gone for the most part. For example, if CAIN, PERVS, WBR, and More Cowbell returned - and fought together, we'd be in some deep trouble.
X Gallentius
Black Eagle1
#26 - 2011-12-19 16:47:22 UTC  |  Edited by: X Gallentius
Stalking Mantis wrote:
To be a leader one must have a strict fleet doctrine to follow and impose on his fleet members. The problem with general militia fleets and a good number of people flying in militia in general is that they lack order and discipline.


LOL, one of the strengths of our militia is the lack of order and discipline when running fleets. The ability to think outside the box and not hit "F1" comes in handy sometimes, and besides, sometimes you gotta have some fun. After a while, the guys pick up on "organized, disorganization" and the result is some great, fun fights.
Draco Rosso
State War Academy
Caldari State
#27 - 2011-12-19 17:19:19 UTC
Sigh* These are kinds of thread that turn people away from Caldari militia. What happen in the past should stay in the past. We don’t need pvp corps that don’t exist anymore to come back into FW. If you’re PVP Corp. looking for something to prove, the Caldari militia will fit the bill nicely.
X Gallentius
Black Eagle1
#28 - 2011-12-19 17:45:21 UTC
Didn't say Caldari need to bring dead corps back. Just suggesting why Federation militia is stronger right now.

What Caldari need is a safe haven to rebuild their strength and confidence. As such, I suggest that Federation militia allow Caldari corporations to roam free in the Urpiken, Kurala, and Ieyama constellations. From these areas they will respawn and provide ample targets for Federation militia pilots to feed on in the future. Lol

Nah, seriously, you guys will figure out what you need to do in time.
GavinGoodrich
Perkone
Caldari State
#29 - 2011-12-19 17:59:20 UTC
In terms of unifying stuff on the caldari side...if there's anyone you'd be comfortable throwing in your hat with, it'd be Mjolnir Gost (and probably didn't spell that right anyway). Gost has the heart for the squids I used to have, and has no intention of leaving anytime soon. He puts his heart into it, so he'd be the remaining man for the job.

DNILeviathan made an outstanding attempt to rally and/or organize, fitting the bill for several out-of-game resources the squids needed, like a backup voice comms, website, forums, etc. Sadly, very few people cared about his efforts.

Hopefully someone like Gost can turn it around. Predator Elite's also a good guy and makes for fun roams, even though our sec status is typically **** afterwards Cool

Haaaaaalp my head's on fire
X Gallentius
Black Eagle1
#30 - 2011-12-19 21:52:34 UTC
DNLeviathan wrote:

its not that they dont have any strong leaders, they have several. the majority populace just wont accept singular leadership. they generally wont accept advice either.


For a minute there I thought you were talking about Federation Militia. We won't accept singular leadership. There have been many butthurt CEO's who have left because people in other corporations don't follow their uber-commands. Many players regularly jump around corporations until they find the one that suits their playstyle best. No hard feelings. In the end we still fleet up with each other.

And many of us are too stupid to take advice as well. But most of us realize that if a person is too stupid to fit his ships properly (I'm looking directly at me, for example), it's his isk and not yours that is lost. So for the most part we don't get too upset when people don't follow fitting advice. They'll either learn to fit their ships properly or eventually leave militia broke.

Anyways, it's a militia, not a dictatorial alliance. Dictators gather up a bunch of players under their corp banner and then bail on their militia for greener pastures, so in the end your militia is better off without them.
Draco Rosso
State War Academy
Caldari State
#31 - 2011-12-19 22:47:29 UTC
X Gallentius wrote:
Anyways, it's a militia, not a dictatorial alliance. Dictators gather up a bunch of players under their corp banner and then bail on their militia for greener pastures, so in the end your militia is better off without them.

Quoted for truth. Too many times have Caldari pilots have been fooled by smooth talking FC/CEO's into leaving CaldariFW. Only to come back into FW more bitter about eve in general since before they left FW.
Gallactica
Shadows Of The Federation
#32 - 2011-12-19 23:15:15 UTC
FG brings WBR home and that's 90% of your problem sorted.

We are very lucky tbh in that weve had our problems, emo, falling outs, butthurtness etc etc but you know what 95% of the corps in Gallente tend respect that we don't always get on, respect the fact that we dont have people trying to lead everyone, that we dont get butthurt when corps have times doing there own thing and pretty much have the best comradary between us since day 1.

Or maybe I'm just drunk and missing playing much recently!
EVIL SYNNs
Dark-Rising
Wrecking Machine.
#33 - 2011-12-19 23:22:24 UTC
My new corps application goes into the Caldari milita tomorrow... Holy christ these forums are terribad!

It doesn't look like I myself will make it tomorrow.. still getting sec status down. But my alts are all +5 and +1 to Caldari now .. many tutorials, circles, tags sold and cosmos mission run to tone down my -7 \0/ A quick sell of tags once I can get back into empire should balance out!

Let me make this clear... I ain't joining the Caldari to become a leader, I just want to ask for X's and take the spies out for a run, where we will die in a fire, but once in a while we will win a few. And hopefully people will then be more happy to come on an evil synns roam.

I know there are many Gallente that would love to have a dance party around an evil synns corpse, don't worry you will certainly have many to go around in a few weeks (remind me to jump out of my implants first)!

A good FC works with the ships and pilots he's got, not what he wishes he had!

I am looking forward to fighting some of the pilots I trained. Not in "classes" but by leading others in fights, winning or losing, writing AAR's so people can learn why I ****** up, why they ****** up and where is the **** up!

Will the caldari get any better? I really doubt it! Will I fly with others.. I always did! Did I check the WOLFY ego at the door? Nope! I and the Caldari Milita are not here to play your game.. we are here to play OUR game.. and if that means blue balling you, fighting as cloaky fags, running from a fight we can't win...

THEN I WILL DRINK YOUR TEARS! and you will have been playing my game.. and I can't lose at that!

Roll on the weekend... FIGHT
Gallactica
Shadows Of The Federation
#34 - 2011-12-19 23:31:27 UTC
Umm it's Xmas this weekend Evil....

Only sad ******* who are off work and will playing when there kids are in bed.......bring it on! :)
EVIL SYNNs
Dark-Rising
Wrecking Machine.
#35 - 2011-12-19 23:34:23 UTC
Gallactica wrote:
Umm it's Xmas this weekend Evil....

Only sad ******* who are off work and will playing when there kids are in bed.......bring it on! :)


EXACTLY! The wee swine will be playing his new Xbox games... so Daddy will just have to go upstaris and kill gallentes... He understands.. He hates the Gallente too.. He's always hated plexers!
FIRST GENERAL
Hostile.
PURPLE HELMETED WARRIORS
#36 - 2011-12-20 00:15:33 UTC
Gallactica wrote:
FG brings WBR home and that's 90% of your problem sorted.

We are very lucky tbh in that weve had our problems, emo, falling outs, butthurtness etc etc but you know what 95% of the corps in Gallente tend respect that we don't always get on, respect the fact that we dont have people trying to lead everyone, that we dont get butthurt when corps have times doing there own thing and pretty much have the best comradary between us since day 1.

Or maybe I'm just drunk and missing playing much recently!


drunk Gall best Gall <3

xoxoxox
Vordak Kallager
Descendance.
GoonSwarm.
#37 - 2011-12-20 01:20:44 UTC
X Gallentius wrote:
Stalking Mantis wrote:
To be a leader one must have a strict fleet doctrine to follow and impose on his fleet members. The problem with general militia fleets and a good number of people flying in militia in general is that they lack order and discipline.


LOL, one of the strengths of our militia is the lack of order and discipline when running fleets. The ability to think outside the box and not hit "F1" comes in handy sometimes, and besides, sometimes you gotta have some fun. After a while, the guys pick up on "organized, disorganization" and the result is some great, fun fights.



^ this mentality is what made the Minmatar LateNite group so successful. More people should fly like this, optimal blend of fun and victory. \o/

Sa souvraya niende misain ye.
Garr Earthbender
Imperial Shipment
Amarr Empire
#38 - 2011-12-20 02:28:19 UTC
Not-a-fleet-fleet FTW. 5-10 people spread out within a few jumps flying whothehellknowswhat always makes for interesting fights!

-Scissors is overpowered, rock is fine. -Paper
Super Chair
Project Cerberus
Templis CALSF
#39 - 2011-12-20 03:21:59 UTC
Garr Earthbender wrote:
Not-a-fleet-fleet FTW. 5-10 people spread out within a few jumps flying whothehellknowswhat always makes for interesting fights!


This pretty much sums up my experience in qcats, there were formal mode fleets and then there was chatgris yelling in comms that he had a shiny ship pointed 5 jumps away and everyone converges Big smile
Dark Pangolin
The Tuskers
The Tuskers Co.
#40 - 2011-12-20 04:22:08 UTC  |  Edited by: Dark Pangolin
Forums are fun. I'm contributing! Roll

All I know is most of the guys I flew with 1.5 years ago are either in Amarr, in Gallente, or in 0.0. Those that are still there are online less often than they used to be (like me). Such is the life of the space warrior.

New blood should and will take over, because the old blood is gone :)

IMHO CalMil should build from the ground up. New pilots, new FCs, new Leaders. No one with too much militia history. Start a new CalMil. The old folks should take a back seat, help when asked, do as they are told, offer advice only when asked, and mostly just be quiet and lose shiny ships.

My ISK is on Gost also, good attitude, good game time.

BTW leading does not mean FC-ing. I personally I think the two should be separate roles.

P.S. Leviathan what happened brah? Why so disgruntled? I'm never clued into any of the politics! bah!