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Will PI be worth my time getting into?
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Nikolai Ouroboure
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#1 - 2015-01-05 06:13:40 UTC
Some background info:
I'm a station trader who has been at it for awhile (started last year for a long time before taking a break and coming back a couple of weeks ago) and love the amount of isk I have been pulling in. But as many of you know station trading is boring as all hell. So I'm looking for something to supplement my trading income (because who doesn't love more money) with a passive-esque income source so PI looks very attractive right now.

I'm no stranger to making spreadsheets to track profits or doing my research for profitable items, so don't think I'm asking for someone to handhold me through this, but like with everything in eve there is a metric butt ton of conflicting info on the subject. So I have a few questions-

1.) How often do I have to check up on the planets I colonize? Would it take hours of my time (assuming I'm a few jumps away from my system) And how long would that generally take?

2.) What's the highest tier (P1, 2, etc.) I can get from production on one planet?

3.) What are your recommended skills before even attempting to go out there?

4.) What size industrial ship is a minimum before moving the volume needed to make a good profit?

5.) Is it better to just adapt so that I can use all my slots in one system or to spread out across multiple systems for max profit without a huge headache?

I'll have more probably, but I'll wait till I have those filled, thank y'all!
Ms Forum Alt
Doomheim
#2 - 2015-01-05 11:55:52 UTC  |  Edited by: Ms Forum Alt
I would strongly recommend you get connected on SiSi and try out your various PI schemes there before you do any on Tranquility. I would also recommend you do research planets as far as possible to see which customs offices have the lowest taxes. I would also recommend you do it in low sec (if you don't have access to planets in null) and move your stuff around in a cloaky hauler like a Viator.

Finally I would recommend you stick with 7 day cycles at least and try to build up to P2 on each planet if only for the reason that just processing P0 -> P1 and then moving it to factory planets for P1->P2 or P2->P3 doesn't scale too well with number of characters. I mean it becomes prohibitively tedious the more characters you add.

Part of your research should be checking out planets in various systems to see which ones have most of the resources you want of course (roughly). Which you can discover in planet mode by playing with the sliders. Take care not to use planets with large radius (like gas planets) as the reach of your extractors affects the power "cost" of having them. The larger the distance, the fewer heads you'll be able to support.

Anyway test it out on SiSi first.
Aerie Evingod
Midwest Miners LLC
#3 - 2015-01-05 18:57:36 UTC
1) standard eve answer, it depends. It depends on if you are doing P1 or P2 from P0, how long your cycles are. How rich the planets are.

2) P3 items can be made on certain planets, but it's highly inefficient to do so. Most people will do P1 or P2 on their extraction planets.

3) CCU IV and support planet management skills at III, galente industrial.

4) browse the galente industrial ships and report back with your findings.

5) depends on your desire to do the hauling. None of my planets are more than 2 jumps from my home base.
Entent Waine
Totality Squad
Vyraj.
#4 - 2015-01-06 06:37:30 UTC  |  Edited by: Entent Waine
Short answer yes. Here is why, I have one account, 3 character each trained up to do PI on 6 planets. I am now in the process of developing a PI production line including a total of 18 planets. 12 to make larger commodities with the lower commodities I bought, then I would take those commodities a put them on the remaining 6 planets to make even larger commodities, each planet making 3 of those larger commodities. When I am done setting up I should be making in profit 400,000,000.00 ISK every 24 hrs, 2,800,000,000 ISK every 7 days... (Sorry my first calculations were way off)

This set up took a long time including training and not to mention the tedious time in setting up the production line.

1. The setup I mentioned above may be checked every 2 days and once the setup is complete it should take me around an hour to rotate commodities and place the end products on the market. Honestly I don't mind the time I mean PI makes me ISK while I sleep. As you are starting out with PI your check might just be 30 minutes or less, setting up the production takes the longest.

2.
Look at this
Condensates = Gas
Industrial Explosives = Temperate
Robotics = Plasma
Smartfab Units = Lava
Synthetic Synapses = Ice
Transcranial Microcontroller = Barren
Ukomi Super Conductor = Storm
Vaccines = Oceanic
Check this out

3. Skills:
*Command Center Upgrades - the more power you can give your command centers the more you can do on planets
*Interplanetary Consolidation - the more planets you have available to you the more you can make
*Planetology/Advanced Planetology - are only important if you want to extract from the planets if you want to by the lower end commodities as I mentioned above this skill is not necessary
*Remote Sensing - remote scanning only if you wish to extract from planets
*Train to fly an Epithal

4. As soon as you can fly an Epithal you will be able to move a good amount of commodities as you just start out.

5. I would say The larger the production line the closer you would want your planets. All 6 planets for my 3 characters are all in the same system. I used the too here to find what system has the 6 specific planets I needed, I must say I was surprised to find exactly what I was looking for.

And like you I use spread sheets, I didn't know how to pull data from eve so I check this out.

the most importtant thing to research is what planetary material to make (largest profit).

I have been doing this for years if you are serious and need help I am willing to help you and answer any questions, message in game Entent Waine.

Best of luck to you.
Ioci
Bad Girl Posse
#5 - 2015-01-06 13:33:38 UTC
General set up, 22 mill or so per planet.

Many of the PI items are consumable. Nano paste, Fuel Blocks are a few so you never really run in to demand issues. They are needed for T2 a lot and while it's not difficult to keep going, it does require game time. Game time many players simply don't want to putter away on click walls and hauling runs.

If you are going to ship spin all day, yep you might as well have planets going. Worse case scenario you ignore them most of the time like me. They aren't costing me anything if I don't haul off planet.

R.I.P. Vile Rat
Shiloh Templeton
Cheyenne HET Co
#6 - 2015-01-09 03:33:44 UTC  |  Edited by: Shiloh Templeton
From my limited experience with low/high sec PI, the lowest maintenance thing to do it setup P2 planets. You'll only need to restart cycles every 2 days for maybe 1-4 minutes per planet. Then pickup from the customs office every 2-3 weeks.

Almost all of the work is in learning, choosing a product, planning a layout and finding the planets to use. Once it's setup, it's easy.

Instead, what you should do to make the most isk (and to leverage your station trading skills) is buy the raw materials at good prices and run "factory planets" to turn it into more profitable commodities. More isk, but you'll spend a lot more time hauling every day or two.
Andrew Indy
Cleaning Crew
#7 - 2015-01-09 04:49:28 UTC
Entent Waine wrote:
Short answer yes. Here is why, I have one account, 3 character each trained up to do PI on 6 planets. I am now in the process of developing a PI production line including a total of 18 planets. 12 to make larger commodities with the lower commodities I bought, then I would take those commodities a put them on the remaining 6 planets to make even larger commodities, each planet making 3 of those larger commodities. When I am done setting up I should be making in profit 172,800,000.000 ISK every 24 hrs, 1,209,600,000 ISK every 7 days...


I could see taxes killing your profit unless you are in null/have very good taxes in your area. Assuming you are buying P1 and refining to P4 you are going to have to import and export at 4 times (assuming 5% tax that's a 20% overhead)

Also that's a lot of work, you will have to haul a tonne of PI.

Assuming 20 Advanced Facilities per planet that's 19200 unit of P1 per day per planet. That's 19200m3 per day per planet. assuming you first 12 planets are P1-P2 or P3 then that's 230400m3 per day or 4 Epithal loads, plus the export and import of the higher lvl items. You will also need a Freighter run from a Hub every 5 days.
Entent Waine
Totality Squad
Vyraj.
#8 - 2015-01-09 15:29:38 UTC
Shiloh Templeton wrote:

Instead, what you should do to make the most isk (and to leverage your station trading skills) is buy the raw materials at good prices and run "factory planets" to turn it into more profitable commodities. More isk, but you'll spend a lot more time hauling every day or two.


I agree Shiloh Templeton.

Andrew Indy in the profits I mentioned that is with all taxes and fees, all export and import I will be doing.
Actually the export import percentage I am using is 16%, the custom offices have taxes ranging from 12% - 16% so to save time I just use the highest tax for all my custom offices, this also help when I have to change prices when I put my end product on the market.

Yes its a lot of work but is there an easy way to make over a bill in a month in EVE?
You have to put in time and money to make money.
Currently my setup is half done I only have one character with 6 planets making commodities with the resources I bought ( I have one more character that will be doing this. Then one character using 3 planets (I'll try and finish the other setup for the remaining 3 planets today) to make the end products. Yup I did the calculations and in profits I am getting 200.000.000.00 ISK a day... (wow as I was going over my calculations I realized the profit calculations were way off, these are correct now). About how much hauling I will be doing your estimates are correct being that I am half done with my setup I am using 2 Epithals.

My setup uses 18 Advanced Facilities per planet, 6 to one Launchpad. Each pad hold 10000.0m3 (2 planets total with this setup). I can replenish my planets every day or every 2 days. If I replenish every day I will use 2 Epithals so yes wow I was thinking to train for a Freighter, it will save time :) but currently I don't need one.

All I was doing is showing Nikolai Ouroboure the potential of PI, The extent of what I am doing don't have to be followed but a smaller scale and one could still make some decent ISK.

Thank you Andrew Indy for your reply, I wouldn't have caught my miss calculations in my previous post.
Chane Morgann
Fuzz Industries
#9 - 2015-01-13 17:41:22 UTC
If you are an individual player, I wouldn't attempt PI anywhere in high-sec.

The major corps and alliances have taken over every possible location for custom offices, and for the most part, have raised the taxes to a level that cannot be sustained by individual players.

Again, it seems CCP has created a situation where it forces individual players to either join a huge corporation so that they might enjoy the full range of game play, or the individual player must figure out a novel way to circumvent the current game play architecture in order to enjoy some aspects in the game they currently are not able to under more normal circumstances.

I am sure I am going to once again get a lot of guff from corporations, and those people who enjoy the gang mentality. But honestly, come on. If you don't want individual players, then stop advertising professions for individual players as if you can engage in all the game dynamics by doing so.

The more I feel as if I am being led by the nose, to play within a corporation structure, instead of being able to express myself as an individual, the more I find myself hoping that another game that would be somewhat like EVE, will come along and fill in the major holes and gapes that currently exist with the EVE game structure. I don't care for giant corporations in real life, and certainly do not want to feel forced into being part of one within the EVE structure either, nor do I want to support those corporations via being taxed a ridicules amount just to accumulate planetary resources.
erg cz
Federal Jegerouns
#10 - 2015-01-15 08:38:03 UTC
Nikolai Ouroboure wrote:


I'm no stranger to making spreadsheets to track profits or doing my research for profitable items


This is exact kind of person, who can run pure manufactoring planets. Buy T2 commodies on market, process them to correct T4 and you do not need to go far away from home.

Main problem in high sec PI is that resources are depleted very fast. So you have to move your extractors to 0.3 or lower security space. Means a lot of travel in gate camped theritory with rather slow industrial ship.

Absolutely free head start for newcomers!. Just click the link and get extra 250 000 SP!
Agent Unknown
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#11 - 2015-01-15 13:08:22 UTC
Chane Morgann wrote:
If you are an individual player, I wouldn't attempt PI anywhere in high-sec.

The major corps and alliances have taken over every possible location for custom offices, and for the most part, have raised the taxes to a level that cannot be sustained by individual players.

Again, it seems CCP has created a situation where it forces individual players to either join a huge corporation so that they might enjoy the full range of game play, or the individual player must figure out a novel way to circumvent the current game play architecture in order to enjoy some aspects in the game they currently are not able to under more normal circumstances.

I am sure I am going to once again get a lot of guff from corporations, and those people who enjoy the gang mentality. But honestly, come on. If you don't want individual players, then stop advertising professions for individual players as if you can engage in all the game dynamics by doing so.

The more I feel as if I am being led by the nose, to play within a corporation structure, instead of being able to express myself as an individual, the more I find myself hoping that another game that would be somewhat like EVE, will come along and fill in the major holes and gapes that currently exist with the EVE game structure. I don't care for giant corporations in real life, and certainly do not want to feel forced into being part of one within the EVE structure either, nor do I want to support those corporations via being taxed a ridicules amount just to accumulate planetary resources.



I attempt to use the jetcan method where taxes are high, but the command center's storage is small compared to the launchpad and doing the expedited transfers makes it take much longer than it should anyway.

I didn't really like the player-controlled customs offices because they're super easy to defend - but at the same time, nothing's stopping you from starting a wardec and taking a few for yourself if you have the guns to do it. Pro tip: many nullsec alliances won't bother with highsec wars. Of course, shoot their POCOs and you might be in for some fun. Pirate
Tau Cabalander
Retirement Retreat
Working Stiffs
#12 - 2015-01-15 21:28:24 UTC  |  Edited by: Tau Cabalander
I did PI in w-space. A friend did PI in lowsec and got similar results.

PI in hisec is poor for extraction (on the order of 7m ISK per week), but okay for only manufacturing with imports, especially with POCO control.

https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=5260575#post5260575
Entent Waine
Totality Squad
Vyraj.
#13 - 2015-01-16 02:50:35 UTC
Chane Morgann I am actually making Advanced Commodities in high sec, custom offices tax are around 15%. Today I got done making 140 Advanced Commodities (took me less than 2 days to make), I didn't put it up for sale but I sold it to buy orders. Yes I lost some profit doing this but I rather do this and make money faster. I made about 79,000.000 ISK in profit.

Yes there has been some changes, trust me I know. I was living in a WH extracting Raw Materials making Advanced Commodities. The tax was not high, I was gone for a while from EVE and came back with all new POCO in the WH. The tax the owners implemented was reasonable but for some reason I did not have access to the POCO's it said something about standings. I tried reaching out to the owners to grant me access but no luck. I did some research and it seems the corp that owns the POCO's was no longer active. I decided to pack up and start over somewhere else and ended up in high sec.

Some changes might hurt the solo player but it seems there might be a way around obstacles in EVE.

I think buying the raw material takes up too much space on your planets instead buying the Processed Materials gives you more space = more profit.

erg cz if you are doing PI in high sec you can't make your full potential of profit if you are extracting best way to go is to buy the raw or processed. If you are in 0.3 or lower security space the yes extract and make sure you have a fit to help you run away from gate camps, research this.
Echo Gengod
MaxGen Biotechnology
#14 - 2015-01-16 04:54:22 UTC
Nikolai Ouroboure wrote:
Some background info:
1.) How often do I have to check up on the planets I colonize? Would it take hours of my time (assuming I'm a few jumps away from my system) And how long would that generally take?

2.) What's the highest tier (P1, 2, etc.) I can get from production on one planet?

3.) What are your recommended skills before even attempting to go out there?

4.) What size industrial ship is a minimum before moving the volume needed to make a good profit?

5.) Is it better to just adapt so that I can use all my slots in one system or to spread out across multiple systems for max profit without a huge headache?


1 - Others have said this before: It depends. With PI you set the harvest rates so it can literally be a few hours to a week or so.

2 - The question is not tier level but efficiency. PI is an efficiency game. If you can obtain 500 units of P1 goods sold at 2 each vs 5 units of P3 goods sold at 75 each from a single planet it's still much easier to and cost effective to just go with the P1 units. The main thing to consider is the CPU and PWR limitations as if you have more processing you'll inherently have less refining. The other topic to consider is (if you're not using alliance planets and the like) what the tax rate is and how much shipping you'll have to do yourself in order to make ends meet.

3 - I would go with the ingame cert level of 3 or 4 for the most productivity but you can certainly start making money off a planet at lvl 1 mastery (albeit small, but passive ISK is passive ISK)

4 - Just get an Epithal. For lowsec and lower you might want to hold off for something stronger. With my setup I can transfer PI goods from planet refinery to refinery in a Viator. Love my Viator.

5 - Preference would be to keep things in system if you plan on hauling from POCO to POCO. Planets, from my short experience, tend to be quite homogenous depending on security status. You're eventually going to want to focus low and null only as everything else pales in comparison.
Mephiztopheleze
Laphroaig Inc.
#15 - 2015-01-19 07:13:57 UTC
Nikolai Ouroboure wrote:
Some background info:
I'm a station trader who has been at it for awhile (started last year for a long time before taking a break and coming back a couple of weeks ago) and love the amount of isk I have been pulling in. But as many of you know station trading is boring as all hell. So I'm looking for something to supplement my trading income (because who doesn't love more money) with a passive-esque income source so PI looks very attractive right now.

I'm no stranger to making spreadsheets to track profits or doing my research for profitable items, so don't think I'm asking for someone to handhold me through this, but like with everything in eve there is a metric butt ton of conflicting info on the subject. So I have a few questions-

1.) How often do I have to check up on the planets I colonize? Would it take hours of my time (assuming I'm a few jumps away from my system) And how long would that generally take?

2.) What's the highest tier (P1, 2, etc.) I can get from production on one planet?

3.) What are your recommended skills before even attempting to go out there?

4.) What size industrial ship is a minimum before moving the volume needed to make a good profit?

5.) Is it better to just adapt so that I can use all my slots in one system or to spread out across multiple systems for max profit without a huge headache!

My $0.02...

1: Personally, I run my extraction planets on a one day cycle and re-set them just after downtime. The shorter the cycle you run, the more resource you'll extract. If I know I won't be able to check it for a few days, I set it to run longer.

2: You *can* do direct to P2 or P3 on some planets, but that tends to be slow going as extractor heads chew vast amounts of powergrid. I just extract and refine to P1 on my extraction planets and then use factory planets to process it into P2/P3.

3: Remote Sensing I, Command Center Upgrades I and Interplanetary Consolidation I. Seriously, that's all you need to start. If you're going to do the factory planet thing, I strongly suggest that character train CCU V.

4: Gallente Industrial I and an Epithal. Accept no substitutes.

5: Keeping everything close to home has strong advantages and can save a lot of hassle when it comes to emptying your extraction planets.

I'm running my PI chain with four characters and a total of 23 planets and that's as much Farmville In Space as I'm prepared to put up with. Resetting the extraction planets takes around ~10mins each day. Keeping the factory planets fed adds another 10mins every other day. For my efforts, I reap just shy of ISK 2b/month in assorted PI goods I sell and a lot of goodwill from corp and alliance mates I can shower with Nanite repair paste.

Occasional Resident Newbie Correspondent for TMC: http://themittani.com/search/site/mephiztopheleze

This is my Forum Main. My Combat Alt is sambo Inkura
Piter Presley
Silent Nomads
Nomads - Reloaded
#16 - 2015-01-19 09:29:58 UTC
Compared to station trading PI is even more boring and tedious. I tried PI in a WH with three chars and it was just too much clicking for the profit.

Station trading scales with your invested capital even for very big amounts of isk. PI only scales with the number of chars which also involves spending more and more time hauling stuff and managing the planets.

Furthermore your station trading business will keep running even if you go away for a week or two. Your PI planets will just stop to do anything if you don't manage them frequently. Of course you can increase cycles to a week, but then your are not getting the profits that the other people talked about.

If your station trading business also has to be managed daily, you are doing it wrong btw.