Player Features and Ideas Discussion

I believe ISD will chime in from time to time. If they see something interesting they may pass it on. However, the chances of new debate are slim:



Trust me. This thread is less an acknowledgment of a problem. And more an acknowledgment of our privilege to discuss.

Just stop cap recharge when cloaked so in time You will decloak easy peasy

My stance is pretty clear. The only fog about it is from your own assumptions of what I wish to achieve. I encourage people to fight. I dont believe people should be in complete safety in this game. However I don't believe that the opposite should apply either. Black ops can bring in danger, thats fine. Should it be harder for them to penetrate a section of space where an alliance is clearly established, yes. If you believe otherwise, then you are mistaken on how the mechanics of war work.

What you are attempting to do is discredit my stance by making false assumptions about things and trying to state that I fit in the party of previous posters that want 100% safety. You are mistaken.

Mag's and Nikk are two of the most vocal people on this topic and even they have stated that I have valid points, though they dont agree with them.

My stance is pretty clear and has been from day one.

90% of cloaking is fine. The 10% that I see an issue with is the prolonged cloak in a system. I feel this is an issue cause once a person is in system, there is no counter to them. AFK or not a cloaked player in a system can not be removed unless that player decides to remove themselves either by leaving, or making a poor choice in a potential target.

My suggestion for a fix has be a set of probes to find cloaked players. Much like combat scan probes, these would take skill and time to deploy and lock a target and would be pretty useless against a moving target. This would be offset by the removal of all standings from local and all player information in game unless in station. This leaves intact all Black Ops fleets, bomber fleets and almost all cloak style play but offers a counter to prolonged camper. Which makes your implication that I prefer safety invalid as it is not something I advocate.

The only person adding fog to the discuss would be you. Nothing about my stance is unclear and it has not been. The only mistake I have made is in reference to the existence of this thread. I prefer to just assume that CCP is actually read it. Though in truth this is likely to be wishful thinking.

It just so happens you have also gained intel on them, because of local.
The difference being Covert Ops ships were designed with intel roles in mind. Local wasn't ever designed, as the intel tool it became.

So yes it's not exactly true, but rather highlights the broken nature of local.

I enter a system, pilots either dock or pos up. Nerfing cloaks will not change that.

You and I have to disagree strongly here. You don't have to sit in your hands. Activities can continue. It's not the guy AFK and cloaked that calls a halt, it's you. No one AFK and cloaked ever stopped pilots using gates, modules from working, people using PvP ships and ratting, locals forming fleets etc etc. If any of that stops, it's because you decided to stop it.

Yes you may have worked for that space, you may have built things. But this means you should also work to defend it. This does not mean a nerf to decloak ships and blob people out of your space. You already have the advantage in many ways, through either man power or infrastructure.

You should have risk in null. I've lived there, I know just how safe it can be. People asking for a cloak nerf claim to be bringing risk. They are in fact removing it from their activities and that is why I disagree with only touching cloaks.

So long as they maintained that cloak operating non-stop for 6 hours, any time after that while still maintaining the cloak will be minus local seeing them, and they cannot see who is listed present either.

Now, Sure, they MIGHT be genuinely AFK.
Someone paying attention, realizing the name just poofed, could undock with probes and a kill squad for a nice kill-mail.

On the other hand, if the cloaked pilot is the one making more effort, and is the only one keeping track of time passing...
They could set an alarm notice, alert their own kill squad, and surprise gank someone.

Stealth, like anything involving a limit to your opponent's perception, involves a meaningful investment of time.
Snipers and assassins require enormous prep time, for that short burst of activity their opponent is aware of.

I completely agree, however in this case its like knowing someone has locked themselves in your attic with a gun. They want to come down to shot you and you know they are up there. You can't get to them but they can get to you any time they choose. It could be while your cooking and they get you easy. OR it could be while your in your bedroom with a shotgun and they go poof. However why should this be allowed? Why cant I kick down the door and confront this person.

This is completely different than if someone stalks you from outside, suddenly bursts in your door and shots you, then runs away. This makes far more sense to me then letting someone just hide in the attic.

Your analogy has a fatal flaw.

You are placing yourself in a structure normally considered under your control, your home.

We are in space.

Holding sov is not the same as owning a home. It is more akin to having a builder's permit for otherwise public property.
What you can build, however, you can deny others access to, for use. This gives you leverage.

For all of that, it is still not your space, just very inconvenient for people you don't like.

Honestly that is over analyzing it. The analogy applies to any space. You are simply rephrased my statement and spun it to seem like something else.

Person A is in space A wanting to kill Person B. Person A is given 3 choices: Leave, Hide in a safe spot that over time can be broke, or continue to exist in space A with unknown consequences. None of the choices allow you to directly confront Person B, even though you know they are there.

Of course knowing is because of local. No direct confrontation is due to cloak. Both working, yet flawed in their own ways. To remove local but allow cloak and no detection would be like leaving Person A and B in the same room but with the lights off and person A having night vision.

The opposite of that is letting Person B just go over and pummel Person A with no real trouble at all AKA system wide decloak or some other overly powerful idea.

There should be a some middle ground.



This I completely disagree with and I think is opposite to the idea of Null in EVE. The space I am in is not public. It's been fought over, and the structures in place are owned by me. I can jam the system, add bridges, towers, stations, bubble gates, etc etc etc. This is a sandbox game and there is a reason they call it that. I am playing in my part of the box, I have setup all my little castles. Though no one offical is going to stop you from kicking the castles down but if you do, I will fight back AND I see no reason why you should be able to just in the middle of the area I have claimed without me reaching over and punching you in the nose.

At first it seems cute, even the drive by to knock over a castle are legit cause I would need to defend that space to stop you. But when you sit in my face, thumb your nose at me, and threaten my area, I dont understand why you feel you should be allowed to do this unopposed. The only reason you can do it is cause CCP handed you a tool that can be abused to allow such game play. Back to the sandbox analogy. The sandbox has a set of rules that people play by. Cloaked ships are the only ships that get to play by their own special rules.

I skipped the first part, as it seemed limited to your opinion about things.
Particularly, when considering that the foundation for the opinion is vested in the following section.



The fact remains, that while you can build structures, and use those structures to give you leverage, you do not own the space.

Your perception of ownership is nothing more than self deception.
You have leverage over pilots not on the approved list of your allies, nothing more.

System jamming, which you can control?
That is leverage.

Jump Bridges only your friends can use?
That is leverage.

Towers only your friends can use?
That is leverage.

Bubbling gates?
That is leverage.

It is only your part of the sandbox, until someone goes to the trouble of kicking you out of that area.
Your leverage makes it harder for them, and easier for you, but that is all it does.

1
Your basis for the right to confront this cloaked opponent is based on a contested concept of ownership.
I am arguing against this claim being valid, pointing out you do not own the space, what you own is the permission to build on it.
Access to the space is always open, to everyone.
Including cloaked pilots, who are under no obligation to play according to your expectations.

Leverage is most certainly not ownership.
Leverage, in this context, gives you an advantage against opposing players.
Ownership implies the claim that the contest has ended, and nothing remains to be proven.

2
Your desire to fight me, in this context, means nothing if I am not accessible.
I could be docked in an Outpost, behind POS shields, logged out of the game, or simply cloaked.
You have the option, in your sov space, to build and use Outposts and POS towers.
You have the option, in any space, to cloak (if equipped), or log out.

I cannot use your Outposts or POS towers without your permission, in your space. That is HUGE, as advantages go.
I cannot simply bring in overwhelming forces to destroy these, with the expectation that I can catch you.
You will have the ability to leave, despite my best efforts, if your skills and timing are up to it.

All I can do, in your space, is cloak or log out.

3
You can select a ship like I did, accept the fitting penalties along with possible hull penalties in some cases, and mount a cloak as well.
You make it seem like duplicating my tactics, and using them against me, is not an option for you.

Then I get to ask:
HOW am I supposed to mine in the local asteroid fields, with your name hanging over me in local?
Clearly you seem hostile, and would blow up my Prospect on sight, so I must remain hidden.
I cannot decloak you, I cannot make you leave the POS, I cannot make you undock from that Outpost.
You clearly have the advantage in this space, thanks to your holding SOV....

And you want to make me to either log out of the game, or drop my cloak?
I feel my play style is being diminished by this state of affairs.