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Should there be better rewards for participating(but not winning) in PvP? And arenas maybe?
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Ranger 1
Ranger Corp
Vae. Victis.
#41 - 2011-12-18 20:44:43 UTC
Mr Kidd wrote:
Azahni Vah'nos wrote:
Ranger 1 wrote:
I support arena but only like dating a fat chick. Sure, she's a great f*** but, I don't want my friends to know.


These arena concepts can sound great on paper, it's just not the way they ever turn out. Start adding rewards to them and they tend to become little more than exercises in farming.

Another thing is that you will have the substandard players asking for ships and fittings to be nerfed because they couldn't win a one on one fight against every other ship in any given category. EVE has been setup as a fleet balanced game, not for individual bouts.

Arenas, etc are also detrimental to the overall PvP in a game because players tend to get their insta-fix of pvp'ing without going outside of the arenas/battlegrounds to find it.

And to the OP with the 'get rewarded just for showing up' ... look back at vanilla WoW when there used to be 30 out of 40 players standing in the starting cave for AV because they worked out that was a more efficient way to earn points. Shouldn't it be "to the victor go the spoils" as the saying goes, not "okay you tried, here's a cuddle and some points".

Overall if you want world PvP then you can't dilute that aspect of the game with arenas and battlegrounds. People are like water, they will always find the path of least resistance. Make arenas, battlegrounds, etc easier and/or more rewarding than world PvP and that's what people will gravitate to.



I'll push this a step farther. I don't like the term "arena". I prefer "instant action". Arena sounds like a competition with a successive series of matches to reach a final champion. "Instant action" to me means a way for players to get some action with no reward system, no competitive series of matches. You get in, you get out, you're done. I don't think there should be tangible rewards. The reward of such a system is the lack of risk and penalty. Any system with tangible rewards will lead to only one thing....exploitation.

Without getting into too much detail, CCP could capitalize on such a system by requiring minimal amounts of aurum varying in amounts depending on what you want to fly. Then the system pits pilots against each other based on certain criteria. Viola! Instant action!

In this way the instant action doesn't detract from the more tangible in game PVP.



Or that, yes.
Big smile

View the latest EVE Online developments and other game related news and gameplay by visiting Ranger 1 Presents: Virtual Realms.
Alaric Faelen
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#42 - 2011-12-19 11:51:37 UTC
Like many, I am against fundamentally changing the nature of Eve. It is what it is and should remain.

However, I completely agree with the point the OP and others are making. While I accept the unrestricted PvP as part and parcel of Eve, it is undeniably the single biggest factor in losing early players and creating care bears out of many who stay.

It's the inevitable outcome of PvP where everyone you meet in space may well have 100mil SP and more bling on their boat than around a rapper's neck. You either come fairly well Leet, or don't bother really. While someone always has a story about how they took out an entire battle fleet with only a wristwatch and a rocket launcher, the truth is that decent PvP is a high end past time.
You can do most anything in Eve to a 'trial' level with minimal diversion and skill time investment. Without dedicating yourself to it, it's easy to try out mining or small manufacturing for example. You can do PI and other things then decide you don't like doing it- and just be a little less efficient than those that are really into it.
PvP, however, requires much more in the way of skills and those to a much higher, almost the same as a 'minimum' as the maximum possible, degree. You can bring less, but the shortcoming is painfully felt.

It's a double edge sword for those PvPers that cry about too many care bears and no targets out there. The unrestricted warfare that lets uber skilled players get easy kills on lesser players, also keeps many people from even trying that whole aspect of this game.
Threads wonder why missions/incursions are so popular-- tiered combat given actual parity. A situation where you can still win or lose, but you know that within some parameters, you CAN win.

To change the unrestricted warfare of Eve would fundamentally change the game, and I am loathe to suggest that. I just acknowledge the fallout from that system as well.
Ciar Meara
PIE Inc.
Khimi Harar
#43 - 2011-12-19 11:55:35 UTC  |  Edited by: Ciar Meara
This is exactly what FW was trying to do.

- Easy acces
- Limits on ships and players
- Rewards even though you may lose

Pitty CCP botched the development of it in such a way it was to easy to skim of the top without engaging gameplay and accessible, more high level results. Lets hope they'll put some effort in the coming months.

- [img]http://go-dl1.eve-files.com/media/corp/janus/ceosig.jpg[/img] [yellow]English only please. Zymurgist[/yellow]
Tanya Powers
Doomheim
#44 - 2011-12-19 13:10:26 UTC
Schonm wrote:
I used to play fps' a bit, I was never great but depending on the game was pretty mediocre overall lol. The difference was is that they're fun and it doesn't matter if you die.

In EVE, you spend a while doing logistics, meetup, wait for an hour at least, jump around... which by the way I pay red frog to do whenever I can that's how awful it is, maybe find someone and when you do either there is lag, blob domination or a minute or so of clicking red crosses. If you win at crosses you get a silly killmail, that's it, if you lose that same killmail turns into an eternal badge of failure also -ISK for whatever your ship cost.

In the end everyone loses in EVE PVP



Very much this.

Maybe pvp in Eve was fun a few years ago when 1v1 or 1v2 happened frequently, now everything is about numbers or cheap shots but in his case you need to have a lot of time in front of your computer and be a little bit "stupid" liking this.

Even in CA or PB just to name those 2 you can get 100+ fun in 1h, why? -doesn't matter how many times you die you always win something witch is the purpose it self of "play", no matter if you win/loose you always win something. In eve you always loose something even when you win (ammo you must buy at stupid prices and have an alt to win that isk or buy isk with rl money -GTC)

But there's a lot of nice stuff to do in eve, pvp is just part of it.
Skydell
Bad Girl Posse
#45 - 2011-12-19 13:18:41 UTC
Akirei Scytale wrote:
It would not. EVE is not a kindergarten classroom, if you lose, you lose.

Also, regarding losing being expensive - that only happens if you fit like an idiot. Fly what you can afford to lose dozens of times over into PvP.

Also, PvP *is* easily accessible. Heck, TEST just recently handed out its second ever Rifter Hero medal to a 2 day old character. Dude's rifter was the whole reason three Tengus died.


I have alts too.

OP: EVE is for the l33t, cool kids. Fun isn't a part of the principal. Winning is fun, period. I PvP in other MMOs as well when I know I can replace the losses. It's the flaw in all FFA PvP games. EVE is big enough the flaw doesn't criplle it like other FFA but it's still a flaw when your PvP and your PvP longevity tools are on the same grids.
Shaalira D'arc
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#46 - 2011-12-19 13:49:39 UTC
Add rewards to FW plexing and remove/rebalance the NPCs and you're all set.
Xoria Krint
The Angelic
#47 - 2011-12-19 14:10:35 UTC  |  Edited by: Xoria Krint
Takseen wrote:

So I was thinking, how come I happily just into pvp in all these other games, but in 2 years of Eve Online I've never really tried its pvp. And I think its because its the least rewarding if you're not especially good at it or don't have a lot of friends.

First of all, PvP in Eve ain't for everyone. But its suppose to be risky. And the fun thing about Eve is that you can actually lose stuff, instead of just losing durability. Secondly, Arenas would ruin some (a lot) of the sandbox feeling in Eve.

And how can you fly around in a stealth bomber for hours and don't get a kill or at least get killed? A bit nervous about losing you PvP-ship?


EDIT: And why would you get something if you lose? I see no reason.

(I hate all these topics from all 2009-2011 players that want to transform Eve to all other MMORPGs out there, please guys - HTFU or STFU!)

(I have lost billions in PvP, but also earned billions. That's how it works. And you don't need friends, you can earn billions in PvP, alone. It's about experience, knowledge and skills. Not about friends and skillpoints. To get experience in PvP you need to get into PvP, you will lose ships, but every loss is a learning experience.)
Adunh Slavy
#48 - 2011-12-19 14:14:43 UTC
You mean to tell me that sitting at a gate camp for hours on end isn't its own reward?

Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom. It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves.  - William Pitt
Tepir
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#49 - 2011-12-19 14:29:43 UTC
EvE is cruel , not only only that i lost bilions of isk in ships , i lost atleast couple months of training in subsystem and gal. bs V . That is what makes it good, original... unique... its cruel game for somebody ... this isnt line age 2 or wow where when you die doesnt hurt that much . When you die it suppose to hurt... thats the main reason WHY you DONT want to lose in PvP . If you dont lose anything in PvP but allways gain something (loot the field) this game would have economics of my country back in 90s (10 milion % inflation) IF you die but you dotn lose ships and you just respawn with your ship and full equipment back at station... whats the point of builders? mining ? all that SOV fighting ?

if you cant stand brutality of EvE best part (pvp) dont be in it... spin in station for an hour... your are perfectly safe inside the station (for now... lets see what will DUST bring )
Lexmana
#50 - 2011-12-19 14:46:53 UTC
Like Tepir said ^^

PvP in EVE is unique in that it takes skills, effort and some luck to be on the good end of the stick and it hurts when you're not. It is asymmetrical PvP at its finest. The very moment they introduce easy mode PvP, EVE will have lost it soul in and every kitten on earth will die.
Jaroslav Unwanted
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#51 - 2011-12-19 14:49:45 UTC
World of Tanks..
Its actually instant PvP and you will find plenty of people from EVE playing it.. somewhat regularly.. And its fun.

EVE is what it is... PvP is the way you create it, not something which is created by AI/system.
Typherian
V.O.I.D.
Pandemic Legion
#52 - 2011-12-19 14:55:37 UTC  |  Edited by: Typherian
The idea that newer players cannot get into PvP is simply wrong. Newer players that refuse to play in a group can't easily get into PvP. A large number of my corp mates joined up when they were still in the T1 frigate and cruiser nub point in eve and flew as tackle or in frig/cruiser blobs. They learned to fly as a team and PvP in a group. By group I do not mean blob they are plenty capable of engaging on equal or with fewer numbers than their enemies. The real problem with PvP in eve is too many people either refuse to fight unless they are 120% sure of winning or refuse to fly with a group and try to play an MMO as a single player game. Both of those groups are the ones I frequently see whining about a lack of PvP.

Same idea applies to long time players that just haven't done much or any PvP. Join a corp that PvPs and learn the ropes. There is PLENTY of small gang PvP and small scale PvP floating around just have to get out of your 200 man drake cane and scimi blob to find it.
Malcanis
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
#53 - 2011-12-19 15:07:23 UTC
Takseen wrote:
I was thinking about this recently over the last week or so. In terms of pvp gaming, last week I've
-done a nullsec roam in a stealth bomber without actually ever engaging anything
-played CoD:Modern Warfare 3 for a bit and ended up 2nd to last on pretty much every round
-did some random battlegrounds in that other MMO
-played some 1v1 ladder matches in SC2

So I was thinking, how come I happily just into pvp in all these other games, but in 2 years of Eve Online I've never really tried its pvp. And I think its because its the least rewarding if you're not especially good at it or don't have a lot of friends.

All of the other games have some sort of matchmaking system that gets even numbers of somewhat equally capable players and pits them against each other. In Eve this is pretty much the opposite of what most players are trying to achieve, except for RvB. I can only assume this is because of two things
-losing is often very expensive
-the only two tangible rewards from pvp are ISK and killmails, and the losers don't really get much of either.
If there's other reasons besides these, please let me know.

In CoD even the worst player will probably get a few fluke kills and eventually get rankups.
In battlegrounds you get a smaller number of honor points even when you lose.
In SC2 while you don't get anything for losing a ladder match as such, it does usually mean that your next opponent will be weaker. In fact the matchmaker tries to let everyone have a 50% win ratio.

If there was some sort of system where you got rewarded just for showing up for the fight, so to speak, would that be a good thing? A virtual Purple Heart, that sort of thing.
And on a related note, how would you feel about some sort of self-contained space arena action? Hell, slap a hefty entry fee and it'd double as an ISK sink.



Maybe you went to one of those schools where everyone gets a prize at sports because they tried their best and it's not fair that one child gets a prize simply because he's the fastest/best endurance/can jump highest/score more goals

EVE is not like those schools and it's not for people who think like that.

"Just remember later that I warned against any change to jump ranges or fatigue. You earned whats coming."

Grath Telkin, 11.10.2016
Bootleg Jack
ACME Mineral and Gas
#54 - 2011-12-19 15:18:17 UTC
OP, Ya, lets just screw up EvE so people afk in PvP to profit from losing like that other **** game you play.

I'm an American, English is my second language...
Mokokan
Transtar Services
#55 - 2011-12-19 17:28:02 UTC
The absolute best thing about EVE is that if you want something to happen, then work for it, fight for it, and make it happen INGAME. Join or start a corp/alliance that will work to set up a balanced, reward based combat arena. Defend a system, cynojam it, guard the entrances, charges admission fees, give rewards, run it 24-7, ...the sky's literally the limit. Don't beg CCP for permission and enabling. DO IT YOURSELF.
Emiko Luan
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#56 - 2011-12-19 17:52:13 UTC
Do you really want casual pvp tards from those games in eve... T_T

Dying is supposed to mean something, and the experience you gain from losing is all the reward required.

Ofcourse there is always RvB for the more casual people, and there's nobody stopping you doing the same but with ships/mods that RvB doesn't allow.

+welcome to my world+ http://emikochan13.wordpress.com http://emikochan13.deviantart.com
Xolve
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#57 - 2011-12-19 18:06:20 UTC  |  Edited by: Xolve
Ranger 1 wrote:
If there were an avenue for your typical High Sec citizen to get their feet wet in combat with other players that didn't make them feel like a dunce, had plenty of potential for making a "name" for themselves, allowed them to gain a bit of confidence, and had a fairly low penalty for failure (various classes of ships allowed starting with cheap T1 frigs on up, and didn't risk their precious implants due to no podding), I think we might just see more people getting organized and getting serious about real PVP. Especially if there were prizes to be won.


Alot of the null-sec and even piratey entities in the game have a training academy of sorts. Getting your feet wet in PvP isn't difficult, and I still believe in my opinion that RvB is the best place to start. Theres the little things you can do as well, Read up on basics online (example: Wensley's Rifter Drifter Guide) and watch videos on youtube by solo enthusiasts (conveniently listed AND bragged about in the 'My EvE' subforum). Once comfortable in RvB and looking to go pro, take some time to find a corp/alliance/coalition that suits your needs as a player on the forum, this will probably take some time, but you'll be better off trying to learn in some newbie recruitment channel swiss army knife corp (that *might* have a FC in it that knows what hes talking about- usually not).

The differences between PvP and PvE are not that huge.

Two of your midslots are already reserved for a Point and a Prop Mod. You CAN active tank in PvP, it just requires quite a bit more micro-management, and near maxed skills, boosters, and is very cap booster dependant. Else- just strap on a LSE or some 1600mm Armor Plates, An Invuln/2 EANM's and damage mods and go, go, go!



Edit- OP, your whole reason for this post is stupid, mis-informed, and completely opposed by the majority of the playerbase. Please stop posting immediately, EvE is all or nothing, and should be played accordingly.
Morganta
The Greater Goon
#58 - 2011-12-19 18:15:32 UTC  |  Edited by: Morganta
well sitting in a SB cloaked up will get you nothing while throwing t1 drones at a titan from an industrial ship will get you on the KM when it pops (and even being on the KM in your pod is its own reward)

the reward is what you make it, there is absolutely no reason to not gain something from a fight, even if you didn't survive
Crumplecorn
Eve Cluster Explorations
#59 - 2011-12-19 18:34:53 UTC
Takseen wrote:
If there was some sort of system where you got rewarded just for showing up for the fight, so to speak, would that be a good thing? A virtual Purple Heart, that sort of thing.
Isn't that what a lossmail is?

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Takseen
Federal Defense Union
Gallente Federation
#60 - 2011-12-19 19:12:04 UTC
Crumplecorn wrote:
Takseen wrote:
If there was some sort of system where you got rewarded just for showing up for the fight, so to speak, would that be a good thing? A virtual Purple Heart, that sort of thing.
Isn't that what a lossmail is?


Yes, I was actually thinking about a lossmail collection project at one point, as I suspect it'd be much easier than collecting killmails :)
As for the main point, Alaric Faelen nailed it perfectly so I don't need to post on it further. Eve can't have casual pvp without a quite fundamental shift in how things work.

Also, what's with all this reference to school medals and such, is that an American thing?