These forums have been archived and are now read-only.

The new forums are live and can be found at https://forums.eveonline.com/

Player Features and Ideas Discussion

 
  • Topic is locked indefinitely.
 

REMOVE ALL Cargo restrictions for ships in SMB
Author
Previous Topic Next Topic
Anhenka
The New Federation
Sigma Grindset
#41 - 2015-01-12 05:08:11 UTC  |  Edited by: Anhenka
Kenneth Feld wrote:

You just made my point

"JF will do it better, faster and with more style"

That wasn't always the case, but now that the game has evolved, it is the case, so there is no need for extra restrictions on what can go in cargo holds

It's only an applicable point if CCP believes that carriers should perform in any way shape or form as a large cargo hauler.

It's not like CCP looked at the carriers and went "Oh lets give it a small Corp Hangar Array and a large SMA that can only carry ships and ammo because that's all anyone would use them for anyway" CCP knew damn well that if we could put anything in a ships cargohold we would immediately use them to haul all sorts of things besides ammo.

Allowing them to move large cargo via ship cargohlds would move them into a jump capable large cargo carrying capacity category that is the current domain of the JF and the Rorqual.

Saying that since they would not be as good as an extremely specialized JF there is no problem in allowing them to do so blithely ignores the fact that carriers are not even in the same category of use currently.

A carrier is a jump capable combat ship with a side capability of being able to carry assembled ships.

A JF is a non combat jump capable transport ship that cannot carry assembled ships.

Do you see a lot of overlap there? Because I don't. And allowing carriers to carry 2/3 of what a JF can, even with a shorter range and longer jump fatigue, severely overlaps with the current role of the JF. Removing the restrictions would not be a minor alteration, rather a massive addition to the purpose and role of the carrier.
Tabyll Altol
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#42 - 2015-01-12 10:07:31 UTC
Kenneth Feld wrote:
Title was pretty specific

JF can jump the farthest

The original reason for this was loading itty5's with ammo and railguns for reprocessing and using the smb to exceed JF range and size

None of this matters now, everything has same jump range, except JF - which are supposed to haul compressed ore

Reprocessing of modules is at a point, where it just doesn't matter

This would make having normal items like drugs and LO in your cargo literally not aids


Thanks



When you can place everything in it why should it be called SMB and not Cargo bay ? Maybe you should use the ships which are designed for the task you wanna do.

Yeah i know just an crazy idea.

-1
Kat Ayclism
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#43 - 2015-01-12 12:15:19 UTC
Tabyll Altol wrote:
Kenneth Feld wrote:
Title was pretty specific

JF can jump the farthest

The original reason for this was loading itty5's with ammo and railguns for reprocessing and using the smb to exceed JF range and size

None of this matters now, everything has same jump range, except JF - which are supposed to haul compressed ore

Reprocessing of modules is at a point, where it just doesn't matter

This would make having normal items like drugs and LO in your cargo literally not aids


Thanks



When you can place everything in it why should it be called SMB and not Cargo bay ? Maybe you should use the ships which are designed for the task you wanna do.

Yeah i know just an crazy idea.

-1

Your reading comprehension is impeccable.
Zeus Maximo
Mentally Assured Destruction
#44 - 2015-01-13 04:38:04 UTC
Please make this happen.

"It is not possible either to trick or escape the mind of Zeus."

U-MAD Membership Recruitment

PoH Corporation Recruitment
Sentenced 1989
#45 - 2015-01-13 11:37:33 UTC
Agreed, nothing more anyoing then not being able to place ship in SMB because it has spare web/scram refit or ozone/cyno refit.

Then you have to go thought each ship one by one, move it out to regular cargo and later put it back in the ship at destination. This gets especially complicated with multiple ships with similliar refits and modules.

The Incursion Guild

Epic Arc Guide
Reaver Glitterstim
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#46 - 2015-01-13 14:29:41 UTC
Just adjust the volume of each industrial based on their max cargohold, so that you can't use the ship maintenance hangar for more than 10% of its space as cargo. For example: increase the Iteron Mark V, Bestower, Tayra, and Mammoth from 275,000m3 to 400,000m3. Then remove that stupid limitation.

FT Diomedes: "Reaver, sometimes I wonder what you are thinking when you sit down to post."

Frostys Virpio: "We have to give it to him that he does put more effort than the vast majority in his idea but damn does it sometime come out of nowhere."
Anhenka
The New Federation
Sigma Grindset
#47 - 2015-01-13 21:00:04 UTC
Reaver Glitterstim wrote:
Just adjust the volume of each industrial based on their max cargohold, so that you can't use the ship maintenance hangar for more than 10% of its space as cargo. For example: increase the Iteron Mark V, Bestower, Tayra, and Mammoth from 275,000m3 to 400,000m3. Then remove that stupid limitation.


Still adds up to 100k.
Arya Regnar
Darwins Right Hand
#48 - 2015-01-13 21:17:07 UTC
Anhenka wrote:
Would still have problems with carriers hauling Miasmoses full of compressed ore. Could fit in the range of 200k m3 of compressed ore in a carrier.

And then jump 5 ly and think about what you just did.
Realize it's stupid and use JF again.

EvE-Mail me if you need anything.
Anhenka
The New Federation
Sigma Grindset
#49 - 2015-01-13 21:30:19 UTC  |  Edited by: Anhenka
Arya Regnar wrote:
Anhenka wrote:
Would still have problems with carriers hauling Miasmoses full of compressed ore. Could fit in the range of 200k m3 of compressed ore in a carrier.

And then jump 5 ly and think about what you just did.
Realize it's stupid and use JF again.


Oh man, it's like they grow on trees. I'm so glad I can walk over to my JF tree, pluck off a newly ripe Nomad, and Nomad off into the distance with my cargo. Maybe I'll just leave the Nomad where I found it so that it sprouts a new JF tree, then come back and pick an Ark off my JF tree for my next trip.

A JF will do it better, faster, easier. Never contested that. But A: That's not an argument for allowing carriers to move bulk cargo in the first place and B: A JF costs 7 times what a carrier does.

We have a frigate capable of hauling 10k m3 ore. We also have lots of frigates capable of only holding a few hundred m3.
Proposing that carriers be able to haul bulk cargo just because they wouldn't do it as well as a JF is like arguing that a Slicer should have a 5k m3 ore hold, and that it's not an issue because Prospect does it better.

Just plain ridiculous.
Kenneth Feld
Habitual Euthanasia
Pandemic Legion
#50 - 2015-01-13 21:38:43 UTC
Anhenka wrote:
Arya Regnar wrote:
Anhenka wrote:
Would still have problems with carriers hauling Miasmoses full of compressed ore. Could fit in the range of 200k m3 of compressed ore in a carrier.

And then jump 5 ly and think about what you just did.
Realize it's stupid and use JF again.


Oh man, it's like they grow on trees. I'm so glad I can walk over to my JF tree, pluck off a newly ripe Nomad, and Nomad off into the distance with my cargo. Maybe I'll just leave the Nomad where I found it so that it sprouts a new JF tree, then come back and pick an Ark off my JF tree for my next trip.

A JF will do it better, faster, easier. Never contested that. But A: That's not an argument for allowing carriers to move bulk cargo in the first place and B: A JF costs 7 times what a carrier does.

We have a frigate capable of hauling 10k m3 ore. We also have lots of frigates capable of only holding a few hundred m3.
Proposing that carriers be able to haul bulk cargo just because they wouldn't do it as well as a JF is like arguing that a Slicer should have a 5k m3 ore hold, and that it's not an issue because Prospect does it better.

Just plain ridiculous.


The point is PREVIOUSLY this wasn't the case, if you could put this stuff in carriers, then carriers did it faster, cheaper and used less fuel.

THEN PHEOBE HAPPENED

NOW

Carrier can't do it faster, can't do it cheaper and has MORE fatigue
JF is better in all respects


SO.....remove the restrictions
Anhenka
The New Federation
Sigma Grindset
#51 - 2015-01-13 21:48:58 UTC  |  Edited by: Anhenka
Kenneth Feld wrote:

The point is PREVIOUSLY this wasn't the case, if you could put this stuff in carriers, then carriers did it faster, cheaper and used less fuel.

THEN PHEOBE HAPPENED

NOW

Carrier can't do it faster, can't do it cheaper and has MORE fatigue
JF is better in all respects


SO.....remove the restrictions


Do you honestly think that Pre-Phoebe the only reason carriers were unable to carry bulk goods was because they would outperform JF's?

And not something as small and as insignificant as the part where they are combat oriented ships that were never, ever, in any way shape or form intended by CCP to be bulk haulers of non ship items?

Because that's what removing the restrictions is: A change specifically permitted to permit the carrier to haul 200K + m3 in a blk hauling role.
FT Diomedes
The Graduates
#52 - 2015-01-13 22:09:40 UTC
Reaver Glitterstim wrote:
Just adjust the volume of each industrial based on their max cargohold, so that you can't use the ship maintenance hangar for more than 10% of its space as cargo. For example: increase the Iteron Mark V, Bestower, Tayra, and Mammoth from 275,000m3 to 400,000m3. Then remove that stupid limitation.


I'd suggest volumes more along the 500,000 m3 for these ships - with max expanders and Giant Secure Containers, I can get 55,385 m3 into a Bestower. If I can fit two into my carrier, I can haul about 120,000 m3 (counting fleet hangar), but I give up my ability to bring any other fitted ships.

Such a carrier would present some distinct advantages over a Jump Freighter:

1. It costs a lot less.
2. A carrier is also good for combat.
3. A carrier can haul fitted ships as well.

And some disadvantages:

1. The carrier cannot enter high sec, load up there, and jump out to a low/null sec cyno. At a minimum, I have to get the items from high sec into low/null to load the carrier.
2. I can haul 3x more in the Jump Freighter, before we even get into silliness with that many GSC's.
3. I can jump further and faster with the Jump Freighter.

And mind you, this is all talking about the second order effects of this change - the primary effect would be that I could transport ships in my carrier with the extra mods, mobile depots, liquid ozone, and all the other useful things without it being a complete pain.

Thoughts?

CCP should add more NPC 0.0 space to open it up and liven things up: the Stepping Stones project.

Anhenka
The New Federation
Sigma Grindset
#53 - 2015-01-13 22:20:36 UTC
FT Diomedes wrote:

Thoughts?


Prevent all industrials from being loaded into the SMA while holding any items whatsoever, and it would be fine.

I have no issue with things like LO and small loose mods being in the cargobay. I do have an issue with abusing the size of industrial bays to permit bulk hauling in a carrier.

Carrier has a 10K m3 corp hangar, and 875 m3 of personal cargo space. If you can manage to double the total space available by using ships loaded wth other mods, I'm against it. That means no 50k m3 extra space, no 100k, no 200k+. Just no.

Permit non charge items in the cargo bays, but preventing outright abuse by preventing all industrials from being loaded with anything aboard, even charges. (Sorry, no indies filled with dread ammo as carrier carriers). No items in any specialized holds, regardless of the type of hold or item.
Kenneth Feld
Habitual Euthanasia
Pandemic Legion
#54 - 2015-01-13 22:25:59 UTC
Anhenka wrote:
Kenneth Feld wrote:

The point is PREVIOUSLY this wasn't the case, if you could put this stuff in carriers, then carriers did it faster, cheaper and used less fuel.

THEN PHEOBE HAPPENED

NOW

Carrier can't do it faster, can't do it cheaper and has MORE fatigue
JF is better in all respects


SO.....remove the restrictions


Do you honestly think that Pre-Phoebe the only reason carriers were unable to carry bulk goods was because they would outperform JF's?

And not something as small and as insignificant as the part where they are combat oriented ships that were never, ever, in any way shape or form intended by CCP to be bulk haulers of non ship items?

Because that's what removing the restrictions is: A change specifically permitted to permit the carrier to haul 200K + m3 in a blk hauling role.



Yes, people would use carriers extra range to haul Railguns and XL ammo to reprocess and build SC and Titans prior to CCP banning that activity.

I know, I did it

They were not intended to be bulk hauler, so CCP nerfed it, good for them, but they went overboard to a certain extent

Now that the exploit is fixed with another method - jump range and fatigue

There is no reason to not let anything go in cargo

If you really think specialized bays would be exploited, fine, I don't even really care about industrial in general.


This is mainly about mobile depots, LO, drugs, extra tank modules, different subsystems for T3, etc

Stuff you have to take out when you put the ship in a SMB, ultimately it ends up in the fleet hangar and forgotten about or takes jeveassets to find again
Anhenka
The New Federation
Sigma Grindset
#55 - 2015-01-13 22:33:52 UTC  |  Edited by: Anhenka
Kenneth Feld wrote:

This is mainly about mobile depots, LO, drugs, extra tank modules, different subsystems for T3, etc


Then I guess you wouldn't mind if industrials, mining barges, and mining frigates all were specifically unable to carry anything while loaded into the SMA?

And yeah, I did the module compression route when it was available too. Have a ton of 425 rails, 800 auto, and citadel torp prints lying around from back then. It was a stupid process and I'm grad it was replaced by easily compressed ore. It was an abuse of the charge exception, and I'd rather not see it partially replaced by bulk hauler carriers.
FT Diomedes
The Graduates
#56 - 2015-01-13 22:38:04 UTC
Anhenka wrote:
FT Diomedes wrote:

Thoughts?


Prevent all industrials from being loaded into the SMA while holding any items whatsoever, and it would be fine.



I'd be okay with this too...

CCP should add more NPC 0.0 space to open it up and liven things up: the Stepping Stones project.

Kenneth Feld
Habitual Euthanasia
Pandemic Legion
#57 - 2015-01-13 22:40:11 UTC
Anhenka wrote:
Kenneth Feld wrote:

This is mainly about mobile depots, LO, drugs, extra tank modules, different subsystems for T3, etc


Then I guess you wouldn't mind if industrials, mining barges, and mining frigates all were specifically unable to carry anything while loaded into the SMA?

And yeah, I did the module compression route when it was available too. Have a ton of 425 rails, 800 auto, and citadel torp prints lying around from back then. It was a stupid process and I'm grad it was replaced by easily compressed ore. It was an abuse of the charge exception, and I'd rather not see it partially replaced by bulk hauler carriers.



You must have missed the part in my earlier reply when i specifically said I didn't care about specialized cargo holds or industrials in general

Anyone who moved via this method would be laughed at, especially on the KM....that would be my only reason for it being left in honestly
Reaver Glitterstim
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#58 - 2015-01-14 01:22:21 UTC
FT Diomedes wrote:
Reaver Glitterstim wrote:
Just adjust the volume of each industrial based on their max cargohold, so that you can't use the ship maintenance hangar for more than 10% of its space as cargo. For example: increase the Iteron Mark V, Bestower, Tayra, and Mammoth from 275,000m3 to 400,000m3. Then remove that stupid limitation.


I'd suggest volumes more along the 500,000 m3 for these ships - with max expanders and Giant Secure Containers, I can get 55,385 m3 into a Bestower. If I can fit two into my carrier, I can haul about 120,000 m3 (counting fleet hangar), but I give up my ability to bring any other fitted ships.

Such a carrier would present some distinct advantages over a Jump Freighter:

1. It costs a lot less.
2. A carrier is also good for combat.
3. A carrier can haul fitted ships as well.

And some disadvantages:

1. The carrier cannot enter high sec, load up there, and jump out to a low/null sec cyno. At a minimum, I have to get the items from high sec into low/null to load the carrier.
2. I can haul 3x more in the Jump Freighter, before we even get into silliness with that many GSC's.
3. I can jump further and faster with the Jump Freighter.

And mind you, this is all talking about the second order effects of this change - the primary effect would be that I could transport ships in my carrier with the extra mods, mobile depots, liquid ozone, and all the other useful things without it being a complete pain.

Thoughts?

Perhaps 5% is more reasonable, so 800,000m3 for large t1 industrial. Don't bother calculating how much they hold with containers because JF can use containers also. But maybe people just need to learn to accept that an assembled industrial is a big ship. Everything else will fit just fine.

An alternate idea I had was to let the ship carry cargo up to its base cargohold size before cargo expansion. This will easily allow for bits of loot left in the hold, or some extra modules you want to take with the ship, and should even cover most cases in which someone forgets they had a full haul in their combat ship.

FT Diomedes: "Reaver, sometimes I wonder what you are thinking when you sit down to post."

Frostys Virpio: "We have to give it to him that he does put more effort than the vast majority in his idea but damn does it sometime come out of nowhere."
Mario Putzo
#59 - 2015-01-14 01:23:51 UTC
remove all SMBs from ships not named Bowhead.
FT Diomedes
The Graduates
#60 - 2015-01-14 01:38:56 UTC  |  Edited by: FT Diomedes
Mario Putzo wrote:
remove all SMBs from ships not named Bowhead.


Well, that's one way to make moving around in 0.0 suck even more.

PS - do you by chance sell Bowheads?

CCP should add more NPC 0.0 space to open it up and liven things up: the Stepping Stones project.