Player Features and Ideas Discussion

Yes, some of the posts and starting point have been "look at how HML suck against AB targets", but lets move on.


2 of my main chars use missiles for PVP so it's not like I wouldn't like a buff.

I never said HML shouldn't need a buff because they do need it, but at the same time I realise that this would make 2 ships a menace again and for some reason people aren't willing to see it or admit to it. On top of that you simply can not have straight buffs because that's just that's terrible, it HAS to come at a cost. Without the cost and drake/tengu discussion nothing will happen to HML and we'll just go round in circles, over and over :)

If you buff damage application (which makes good sense) without looking at other stuff as well you make it work way too well across the board. Also it would diminish the need for a Drake to fit rigors which means it becomes an EHP sausage fest again and lets not think about the lol tengu as it is right now, but then with buffed HML.


So, HML has 3 "enemies", it's what's holding HML back from being buffed:

- lol drake
- lol Tengu
- too much base range to make up for the fact has no T2 range ammo

Pretty much all 3 would be (partially) solved by lowering base range and at the same time allowing for range ammo, this would bring it more in line with turrets which makes balancing (and the discussion thereof) much easier.


So:

- drop base range but increase speed, non ranged bonused cruiser weapons don't need 60km (assuming T2 range ammo is an option)
- change Precision ammo to range bonused
- drop drake shield HP as it'll require less application rigs
- rebalance tengu (no clue how, haven't given it any real thought)

with dropped base range you can now start addressing the buffs

- increase damage application, and perhaps instead of just toying with the 2 stats actually have a good look at the formula itself
- if both ships are balanced/nerfed enough you can even go for a slight paper dps buff

That way every HML ship performs better (Even the Drake and Tengu) without those 2 trouble makers becoming a problem. Someone who isn't willing to discuss problematic implications or who just wants a simple "moar" is just not realistic.

Almost all HML ships are under performing with nothing to make up for it, apart from Drake and Tengu. If you increase application and base dps drake won't be inferior anymore dps wise (and more importantly, nor would other HML ships) but it would create a problem in regards to the Drake's dps vs ehp which would be out of whack. so in order to allow the Drake (and thus all other HML ships) to get better missiles you have to nerf Drake HP so it'll be balanced.

Can't have one without the other.

"if you nerf Drake HP a bit you can buff HML application and base dps", that's literally what I stated.

Then we'll go back in circles about how missiles don't use cap, can select damage type, can't be countered by angular, don't require any manual input and are too easy to fit and because of all that shouldn't work even close to on par to turrets. You're never going to "win" (and by that I mean convince anyone who matters that Drake/Tengu should get a straight buff). Again, that's not me trying to be annoying, it's just me being a realist.

Just as the Drake and Tengu held back a Caldari buff for so long it's the same here again. Any concept of an idea will HAVE to be a complete package encompassing an understanding and solution for the possible & obvious issues that come from buffing HML. If you don't nothing is going to happen.


I bet they have this circle jerk discussion the whole time at CCP, and it's just as fruitless as here.

The Drake as we have it now is balanced on the chosen damage application of missiles, where making missiles work requires application rigs. If you change the necessity for those rigs you change the balance of the ship as it can now pile on the extender rigs again. Especially if you also implement a straight dps buff. The only two ships that would cause problems are the Drake and Tengu, all other HML ships are underperforming.


So, do you want a Drake buff or a HML buff.


p.s.: your obsession with fits is hilarious, especially so as tons of fits have been posted already but always changing the conditions to suit one's agenda. Also because making a fleet fit is so fcking easy it shouldn't even be questioned. Yes HML apply less dps because they're a non-effort, non-cap using, non-ewar countered, damage type selectable weapon system. Yes they should get a buff but no the Drake isn't allowed to gain from it, nor the Tengu.

It's so obvious you want your non-effort Drake & Tengu back it's not even funny.

I have, several times, but that gets ignored of course.

Which is totally balanced if you're still living in fear of Drakes.

perhaps that should be the thing the fix instead of tweaking damage output and application/projection values, just say'n.

Quite.

Let's put this to bed.

Shield gank bruitix vs drake.

[Brutix, SPIKE]
Magnetic Field Stabilizer II
Magnetic Field Stabilizer II
Magnetic Field Stabilizer II
Tracking Enhancer II
Reactor Control Unit II
Damage Control II

Large Shield Extender II
Large Shield Extender II
Adaptive Invulnerability Field II
Experimental 10MN Microwarpdrive I

250mm Railgun II, Spike M
250mm Railgun II, Spike M
250mm Railgun II, Spike M
250mm Railgun II, Spike M
250mm Railgun II, Spike M
250mm Railgun II, Spike M
[empty high slot]

Medium Anti-EM Screen Reinforcer I
Medium Anti-Thermal Screen Reinforcer I
Medium Core Defense Field Extender I





[Drake, Test]
Ballistic Control System II
Ballistic Control System II
Ballistic Control System II
Internal Force Field Array I

Large F-S9 Regolith Shield Induction
Large F-S9 Regolith Shield Induction
Adaptive Invulnerability Field II
Limited Adaptive Invulnerability Field I
Phased Weapon Navigation Array Generation Extron
Experimental 10MN Microwarpdrive I

Heavy Missile Launcher II, Caldari Navy Scourge Heavy Missile
Heavy Missile Launcher II, Caldari Navy Scourge Heavy Missile
Heavy Missile Launcher II, Caldari Navy Scourge Heavy Missile
Heavy Missile Launcher II, Caldari Navy Scourge Heavy Missile
Heavy Missile Launcher II, Caldari Navy Scourge Heavy Missile
Heavy Missile Launcher II, Caldari Navy Scourge Heavy Missile
[empty high slot]

Medium Warhead Rigor Catalyst I
Medium Warhead Rigor Catalyst I
Medium Anti-EM Screen Reinforcer I



Vital statistics [Brutix | Drake]:
EHP: 58.4k | 64.5k
Cap life: 2m49s | 3m37s
Speed: 1232ms | 1003ms
Paper DPS: [676--387] | 369

So...not a huge EHP differental at these numbers, the cap life is very close considering the cap free missiles, brutix far quicker on its feet.

Let's have them shoot at a MWDing caracal with a transversal of about 45 degrees (reasonable average, nothing can sustain 90 degrees, so transversal of 1693m/s

Result:
From ~8km >beyond reasonable lock range, given the correct ammo the brutix is crapping all over that drake. Iron being the outlier where the HML is actually better. Antimatter is better from 10km - 33km so ammo swapping isnt a huge deal here, AM at its peak it is doing almost 64% more applied DPS than that drake. From 15-28kms it's doing a minimum of 40% more applied DPS.

http://i.imgur.com/NgYW3HS.png


If we put an AB on that caracal, this happens:
From 13.6km out, the guns murder it.

http://i.imgur.com/WV5w2r3.png



So, rigors covered, painter covered, EHP covered - what's left? Except that guns are almost without exception the superior choice, even vs a corkscrewing, fast target. If I use precision the drake does less DPS at a shorter range. Fury, obviously least of all but at longer ranges than precisions.


I'm sure there's some glaring error in my fittings but I'll be honest I'm not seeing mad range, mad tank OR mad damage from the missiles. I'm seeing missiles that need some help to close the gap a little. Unless I was sitting on a gate at zero expecting to fight brawlers I would never use a drake over the brutix.

And that's a DRAKE, never mind a LOLCLONE, or a cruiser that can't spare these fittings.

Well missiles would most likely be a mix of kinetic and explosive damage. If they were hypothetically to get damage locked completely then that would be the two I'd give them. Which gives you only drones and projectiles as the selectable damage weapons and missiles could be modified in other more useful ways.