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Why does caldari militia fail? Your viewsplease

Author
DNLeviathan
Blue Canary
Watch This
#1 - 2011-12-18 22:37:14 UTC
i know alot of people say its cause its the carebear faction and ive used thaty excue myself many times. but now my view has changed. they shoot blues. why would anyone fleet up when they may get ganked by their own miltia buddies?
if itsnot that then they declare internal wardecs because a neutral alt was not made aware of and got ganked by blues.
3rd reason is they all demand that everyone plays the exact same way wether they like it or not. its a game, have fun, fly the way you want to fly and maybe JUST MAYBE more people would get involved.
Pulgy
Doomheim
#2 - 2011-12-19 03:19:35 UTC
or they get bored and move to amarr for some reason :P
I'm sure squids will come around, i mean believe it or not the gallente side is going through the exact same thing.
No range? No problem!   Join the Church of the Holy Blasterâ„¢ . A Hybrid religion.
Zeerover
TunDraGon
Goonswarm Federation
#3 - 2011-12-19 04:08:42 UTC
Pulgy wrote:
or they get bored and move to amarr for some reason :P
I'm sure squids will come around, i mean believe it or not the gallente side is going through the exact same thing.


It's the circle of FW life. In our case we had two worthy opponent corps, the CEO and main FC of one decided to have a long break from eve, which led us to only shoot the same guys over and over, until we gained so much mutual battlefield respect that we decided to not shoot each other but rather joined forces elsewhere - we were not the first crew to do this, nor will we be the last. We knew neither of us could cross to the other side, so we had to move far away from the cal/gal FW zone. After that didn't work out we didn't want to go back to the same thing. We felt we owned Black Rise to such a degree that we lost good pvp'ers to boredom before we left. Hence we went with the other logical solution - join Amarr.

What I mean by re-telling that story is that either someone new will rise up and get the Caldari into shape, or the better corps in Gallente will tire of the lack of opposition and move elsewhere, balancing the sides - it's the circle of FW life.

[img]http://i.imgur.com/Qrwa2.png[/img]

Mutnin
SQUIDS.
#4 - 2011-12-19 04:31:01 UTC  |  Edited by: Mutnin
DNLeviathan wrote:
i know alot of people say its cause its the carebear faction and ive used thaty excue myself many times. but now my view has changed. they shoot blues. why would anyone fleet up when they may get ganked by their own miltia buddies?
if itsnot that then they declare internal wardecs because a neutral alt was not made aware of and got ganked by blues.
3rd reason is they all demand that everyone plays the exact same way wether they like it or not. its a game, have fun, fly the way you want to fly and maybe JUST MAYBE more people would get involved.



Every militia is the same at one point or another. I've been in FW for just about the entire time I've played this game. One thing is certain is that each militia always had it's ups & downs and I've been in them all. I've seen internal fighting with war decs in every militia and seen lots of blue vs blue squabbles as well as more trolls than I care to count.

It's just the nature of the beast as there is no way to keep people in order or provide focused goals as FW militia's are nothing more than a headless alliance. Considering that most player run alliances are pretty fail and often suffer from the same kind of end fighting, how could you expect it not to be worse in FW?

You can't even kick known spys out of FW. I could use an alt corp join the apposing Militia and TK blues all day. As long as the corp I was in held up it's positive standings there is nothing anyone could do about it.

TBH it's amazing IMO that any Militia can actually get their acts together for any amount of time prior to the inevitable top corps of the moment either fizzing out or leaving for l33t null sec pvp, causing that militia to fail cascade until some group of players helps pull them out of their dip.. This happens over and over and side always swap as in whom ever is the strongest at the moment.
Andreus Ixiris
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#5 - 2011-12-19 06:32:59 UTC
Poor attitude.

Andreus Ixiris > A Civire without a chin is barely a Civire at all.

Pieter Tuulinen > He'd be Civirely disadvantaged, Andreus.

Andreus Ixiris > ...

Andreus Ixiris > This is why we're at war.

Damar Rocarion
Nasranite Watch
#6 - 2011-12-19 07:30:31 UTC
Zeerover wrote:
[quote=Pulgy]the better corps in Gallente will tire of the lack of opposition and move elsewhere, balancing the sides - it's the circle of FW life.


Like hell they will. If any organised corp comes to Caldari side, the frogs stay docked and employ their well known strategy of "bore the enemy to death" until they can come out again and proceed to their usual hobby of ganking noobs since that's the enviroment where they thrive. Just look what happened with draketrain. No fleet fights were given after few attempts and froggies proceeded to wait it out because people like Lacco and Shana Tirii are quick to walk away if there is no fun to be had..


Andreus Ixiris
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#7 - 2011-12-19 07:42:40 UTC
Damar butthurt == best butthurt.

Andreus Ixiris > A Civire without a chin is barely a Civire at all.

Pieter Tuulinen > He'd be Civirely disadvantaged, Andreus.

Andreus Ixiris > ...

Andreus Ixiris > This is why we're at war.

uwai223
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#8 - 2011-12-19 07:49:55 UTC
So if I wanted to join fw, where would I start to look? FW is pretty much the only thing I've not done in eve yet.

We are required by our constitution to let the voters think they have a choice. That's democracy!

Andreus Ixiris
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#9 - 2011-12-19 07:51:19 UTC
uwai223 wrote:
So if I wanted to join fw, where would I start to look? FW is pretty much the only thing I've not done in eve yet.


I wouldn't bother starting.

Andreus Ixiris > A Civire without a chin is barely a Civire at all.

Pieter Tuulinen > He'd be Civirely disadvantaged, Andreus.

Andreus Ixiris > ...

Andreus Ixiris > This is why we're at war.

Mister Swift
State Protectorate
Caldari State
#10 - 2011-12-19 07:53:28 UTC
Not enough people able and willing to PvP (as a team), amongst other things :<
Bad Messenger
Rehabilitation Clinic
#11 - 2011-12-19 08:36:53 UTC  |  Edited by: Bad Messenger
Caldari militia has certain problems that has been developed on time.

Problem is that Caldari has not any strong leaders who would stay in militia long enough. And if someone want to be one, other who think that they should be leaders try to prevent that some other get leader status. Also militia is filled Gallente alts who trolls and disrupt all activities, that is normal on FW but many feels that they cant do nothing if there is spies.

Why there is no good leaders is simple, there is no big goal to achieve. Competent FC does not feel FW environment any challenging, only challenge is to get enemy undock and fight and that hardly happens if Caldari has competent FC, I've seen that many times. There is pirates to gank but you do not have to be in militia if you want to gank those.

Also caldari militia has lot of members who have no clue how fleets work, they want to always bring their own superior fitted ship to fleet, no matter what FC has planned to do.

So, basically not any good FC is interested to run fleets that cant do anything, if you want to teach people half year and then get fleet that maybe can do something then fw is for you.
Shaalira D'arc
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#12 - 2011-12-19 08:54:46 UTC
One consistent complaint I've heard from varying CalMil pilots over the past year is that they lack cohesive, reliable intel. Even when CalMil was very active earlier this year, it seemed as if each of their corporations was doing something different, and not passing intel between each other. This is something we exploited a lot.

For all of the things GalMil does wrong (and believe me, we derp a lot), one thing we tend to do right is communication. We have shared and mostly-reliable intel channels as well as readily-accessible voice comms with varying levels of security. In addition, we generally have a culture of friendly competition where it's not unusual or suspicious for the member of one corp to drop into another corp's comms just to chat. As a result, we often join each others' roams and our fleets tend to coordinate and exchange intel.

Good communication gets you the following benefits:

- Targets. It's much, much easier to PvP if you know where to go to pew pew.
- Numbers. If a target is too heavy / too numerous for you, there are often pilots around willing to fleet up and even the odds.
- Support. If you run into unexpected trouble, a fight turns sour, or a falcon uncloaks, there's often a few pilots in the area available to help.
- Evading gatecamps and gank attempts.

Now, there is drama that comes up sometimes. Personality clashes are inevitable. But by and large, GalMil has a rather strong and friendly community between its major corps.

When we flipped Enaluri, one of the complaints a CalMil pilot voiced in local was Gallente reliance on 'blobs' and dirty spying tactics. Speaking from a personal perspective, I've never had access to spy data during PvP. Our FC at the time, one of the more well-known ones in GalMil, was also ignorant of any infiltration by us in CalMil's channels.

In battle, it's easy to mistake an enemy's penchant for having the right numbers at the right place to leaked intel or the presence of spies. I think we really are just better coordinated.

In short, my advice is this:

- If you fear spies too much, you'll never develop a relaxed community of PvP-centric pilots. Who gives good intel versus who gives bad intel can be ascertained quickly enough. And making that judgment call is a small price to pay for having reliable intel channels.

- FW corps can (and do) go it alone, but good things can come from working with others. Splintering into a multitude of corps in FW is inevitable due to personality clashes, time zone variation, small gang versus fleet roamers, and differing interests. But there's a world of difference between a bunch of isolated corps, and a community of people at least loosely working together.
Mutnin
SQUIDS.
#13 - 2011-12-19 10:28:05 UTC  |  Edited by: Mutnin
Shaalira D'arc wrote:
One consistent complaint I've heard from varying CalMil pilots over the past year is that they lack cohesive, reliable intel. Even when CalMil was very active earlier this year, it seemed as if each of their corporations was doing something different, and not passing intel between each other. This is something we exploited a lot.

For all of the things GalMil does wrong (and believe me, we derp a lot), one thing we tend to do right is communication. We have shared and mostly-reliable intel channels as well as readily-accessible voice comms with varying levels of security. In addition, we generally have a culture of friendly competition where it's not unusual or suspicious for the member of one corp to drop into another corp's comms just to chat. As a result, we often join each others' roams and our fleets tend to coordinate and exchange intel.

Good communication gets you the following benefits:

- Targets. It's much, much easier to PvP if you know where to go to pew pew.
- Numbers. If a target is too heavy / too numerous for you, there are often pilots around willing to fleet up and even the odds.
- Support. If you run into unexpected trouble, a fight turns sour, or a falcon uncloaks, there's often a few pilots in the area available to help.
- Evading gatecamps and gank attempts.

Now, there is drama that comes up sometimes. Personality clashes are inevitable. But by and large, GalMil has a rather strong and friendly community between its major corps.

When we flipped Enaluri, one of the complaints a CalMil pilot voiced in local was Gallente reliance on 'blobs' and dirty spying tactics. Speaking from a personal perspective, I've never had access to spy data during PvP. Our FC at the time, one of the more well-known ones in GalMil, was also ignorant of any infiltration by us in CalMil's channels.

In battle, it's easy to mistake an enemy's penchant for having the right numbers at the right place to leaked intel or the presence of spies. I think we really are just better coordinated.

In short, my advice is this:

- If you fear spies too much, you'll never develop a relaxed community of PvP-centric pilots. Who gives good intel versus who gives bad intel can be ascertained quickly enough. And making that judgment call is a small price to pay for having reliable intel channels.

- FW corps can (and do) go it alone, but good things can come from working with others. Splintering into a multitude of corps in FW is inevitable due to personality clashes, time zone variation, small gang versus fleet roamers, and differing interests. But there's a world of difference between a bunch of isolated corps, and a community of people at least loosely working together.


Well personally I've always done my own thing in FW as I didn't have much interest in the blobs that have a typical goal of just ganking stuff. I just came back from about a 2 & half month vacation from EVE and see things have changed quite a bit.

I'd say maybe 1 to 2 months prior to taking a break, the Gal vs Cal war was very healthy. It was pretty much the only time I was ever interested in joining the big gangs because the gangs were fighting each other pretty regularly and it seemed like both sides were interested in the meat grinder and not just ganking noobs.

That was really the only time I enjoyed fleet fights because most of the fights were pretty equal in numbers or at least fairly balanced. Now I wont get into the countless times Cal gangs chased Gal gangs right back to Hey only to have to sit and wait 30-45 mins b4 you guys would undock.. (if at all) Lol

I knew that wasn't going to last as all Militia's eventually flake out so I enjoyed it while it lasted. I think what eventually happened to Cal was the same few FC's were running fleets all the time and got burnt out and were either just not logging in or doing RL. This is why I don't FC in FW because it kills your enjoyment of just being able to log in.

At that point one of the newer Cal corps at that time was run by some loud mouths that were causing a lot of problems internally. The problem was they were the only guys with FC's at the time and any fleet they ran turned into a EMO rage fest. This eventually killed activity as no one wanted to listen to some guy EMO raging every time we had a fight go bad or calling every other guy a spy because they were paranoid as hell or the FC didn't listen to the info the scout was giving.

Up until that happened, Cal was going pretty strong and it was having fun fights, but as they say it only takes one bad apple to spoil the bunch and we had a few at the time. The bad apples are gone but the damage is done..
DNLeviathan
Blue Canary
Watch This
#14 - 2011-12-19 11:32:03 UTC
Bad Messenger wrote:
Caldari militia has certain problems that has been developed on time.

Problem is that Caldari has not any strong leaders who would stay in militia long enough. And if someone want to be one, other who think that they should be leaders try to prevent that some other get leader status. Also militia is filled Gallente alts who trolls and disrupt all activities, that is normal on FW but many feels that they cant do nothing if there is spies.

Why there is no good leaders is simple, there is no big goal to achieve. Competent FC does not feel FW environment any challenging, only challenge is to get enemy undock and fight and that hardly happens if Caldari has competent FC, I've seen that many times. There is pirates to gank but you do not have to be in militia if you want to gank those.

Also caldari militia has lot of members who have no clue how fleets work, they want to always bring their own superior fitted ship to fleet, no matter what FC has planned to do.

So, basically not any good FC is interested to run fleets that cant do anything, if you want to teach people half year and then get fleet that maybe can do something then fw is for you.


its not that they dont have any strong leaders, they have several. the majority populace just wont accept singular leadership. they generally wont accept advice either.

Scrutt5
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#15 - 2011-12-19 11:33:04 UTC
Here's my opinion,

From what I have seen over the past two to three months, since returning from a year or so of inactivity is that, Caldari really don't have a driving fore behind them, where as the Gallente have several. The majority of Cal Mil pilots are in the NPC run variant with little or no direction as individual pilots to set up specific ships to combat the various tactics used againt them.

Cal Mil unfortunately are a rag tag bunch bringing pretty much any ship they like to an FW fight. If the active and intrested Cal pilots worked together, set up ships for specific counters they would be far more effective , effectiveness leads to victories, victories to morale and all of a sudden you get more pilots interested in learning to PVP rather then run about in fleets (your small gang stuff is actually quite reasonable) herp-derping.

Not once I have seen a CAL fleet consisting of more than 20 pilots that have enough logistic support to justify them leaving station. Its not just a case of looking at the GAL n thinking , right we'll set up for them.... low sec in the cal/gal border zone is full of well organised and efficient pirate corporations and often your fleets don't make it as far as the engagement your looking for.

Versatility, Intel, scouting and fleet pilots having a variety of ship available at the drop of a hat doesn't stem from part time pvp.

At various stages across the FW platform, it will and probably has already happened to each faction, but right now the Cal need a respected pvp corp to come on board, recruit the quality from the ranks of state and share their knowledge. In return the Ca lhave to decide who amongst themselves are prepared to take pvp to the next level.

Sort out the infrastructure and blues shooting blues will become a thing of the past very quickly.

Andreus Ixiris
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#16 - 2011-12-19 11:33:17 UTC
DNLeviathan wrote:
its not that they dont have any strong leaders, they have several. the majority populace just wont accept singular leadership. they generally wont accept advice either.


That's pretty much the same with almost every militia and half the alliances in the game. It's got to be more than that.

Andreus Ixiris > A Civire without a chin is barely a Civire at all.

Pieter Tuulinen > He'd be Civirely disadvantaged, Andreus.

Andreus Ixiris > ...

Andreus Ixiris > This is why we're at war.

DNLeviathan
Blue Canary
Watch This
#17 - 2011-12-19 11:33:19 UTC
Shaalira D'arc wrote:
One consistent complaint I've heard from varying CalMil pilots over the past year is that they lack cohesive, reliable intel. Even when CalMil was very active earlier this year, it seemed as if each of their corporations was doing something different, and not passing intel between each other. This is something we exploited a lot.

For all of the things GalMil does wrong (and believe me, we derp a lot), one thing we tend to do right is communication. We have shared and mostly-reliable intel channels as well as readily-accessible voice comms with varying levels of security. In addition, we generally have a culture of friendly competition where it's not unusual or suspicious for the member of one corp to drop into another corp's comms just to chat. As a result, we often join each others' roams and our fleets tend to coordinate and exchange intel.

Good communication gets you the following benefits:

- Targets. It's much, much easier to PvP if you know where to go to pew pew.
- Numbers. If a target is too heavy / too numerous for you, there are often pilots around willing to fleet up and even the odds.
- Support. If you run into unexpected trouble, a fight turns sour, or a falcon uncloaks, there's often a few pilots in the area available to help.
- Evading gatecamps and gank attempts.

Now, there is drama that comes up sometimes. Personality clashes are inevitable. But by and large, GalMil has a rather strong and friendly community between its major corps.

When we flipped Enaluri, one of the complaints a CalMil pilot voiced in local was Gallente reliance on 'blobs' and dirty spying tactics. Speaking from a personal perspective, I've never had access to spy data during PvP. Our FC at the time, one of the more well-known ones in GalMil, was also ignorant of any infiltration by us in CalMil's channels.

In battle, it's easy to mistake an enemy's penchant for having the right numbers at the right place to leaked intel or the presence of spies. I think we really are just better coordinated.

In short, my advice is this:

- If you fear spies too much, you'll never develop a relaxed community of PvP-centric pilots. Who gives good intel versus who gives bad intel can be ascertained quickly enough. And making that judgment call is a small price to pay for having reliable intel channels.

- FW corps can (and do) go it alone, but good things can come from working with others. Splintering into a multitude of corps in FW is inevitable due to personality clashes, time zone variation, small gang versus fleet roamers, and differing interests. But there's a world of difference between a bunch of isolated corps, and a community of people at least loosely working together.


confirming caldari intel channel IS just a general chat channel away from the spies in militia chat. not much intel apart from comms info in motd.
DNLeviathan
Blue Canary
Watch This
#18 - 2011-12-19 11:36:47 UTC
Andreus Ixiris wrote:
DNLeviathan wrote:
its not that they dont have any strong leaders, they have several. the majority populace just wont accept singular leadership. they generally wont accept advice either.


That's pretty much the same with almost every militia and half the alliances in the game. It's got to be more than that.


true again, problem is that cal militia does shout for leadership, but when someone steps up to the plate like i did, no-one was interested. in my relatively short period of time in cal militia, i have seen a number of people step up just to get slapped in the face and give up.
Mutnin
SQUIDS.
#19 - 2011-12-19 12:04:40 UTC  |  Edited by: Mutnin
Scrutt5 wrote:
Here's my opinion,

From what I have seen over the past two to three months, since returning from a year or so of inactivity is that, Caldari really don't have a driving fore behind them, where as the Gallente have several. The majority of Cal Mil pilots are in the NPC run variant with little or no direction as individual pilots to set up specific ships to combat the various tactics used againt them.

Cal Mil unfortunately are a rag tag bunch bringing pretty much any ship they like to an FW fight. If the active and intrested Cal pilots worked together, set up ships for specific counters they would be far more effective , effectiveness leads to victories, victories to morale and all of a sudden you get more pilots interested in learning to PVP rather then run about in fleets (your small gang stuff is actually quite reasonable) herp-derping.

Not once I have seen a CAL fleet consisting of more than 20 pilots that have enough logistic support to justify them leaving station. Its not just a case of looking at the GAL n thinking , right we'll set up for them.... low sec in the cal/gal border zone is full of well organised and efficient pirate corporations and often your fleets don't make it as far as the engagement your looking for.

Versatility, Intel, scouting and fleet pilots having a variety of ship available at the drop of a hat doesn't stem from part time pvp.

At various stages across the FW platform, it will and probably has already happened to each faction, but right now the Cal need a respected pvp corp to come on board, recruit the quality from the ranks of state and share their knowledge. In return the Ca lhave to decide who amongst themselves are prepared to take pvp to the next level.

Sort out the infrastructure and blues shooting blues will become a thing of the past very quickly.



That's because you came back after it all was already fallen or falling apart..

Back in June and July we were running some decent Drake/Cane gangs that typically had lots of logi and various needed support ships. (ie Falcons, Lach/Arazu & Huggin/Rapiers and of course smart logis don't show on KBs)

Few examples.. to show fleet comps

http://caldari.eve-kill.net/?a=kill_related&kll_id=9932403
http://caldari.eve-kill.net/?a=kill_related&kll_id=10176237
http://caldari.eve-kill.net/?a=kill_related&kll_id=10221580
http://caldari.eve-kill.net/?a=kill_related&kll_id=10170750
http://caldari.eve-kill.net/?a=kill_related&kll_id=10231536
http://caldari.eve-kill.net/?a=kill_related&kll_id=10176305
http://caldari.eve-kill.net/?a=kill_related&kll_id=10175712
http://caldari.eve-kill.net/?a=kill_related&kll_id=10170742

Granted they weren't l33t specialized gangs of awesome PVP corps but wasn't bad being it's militia and we are dealing with people from various skill levels and PVP experiences. There were a lot of fights like those above and in that time period I only remember a few that we lost vs Gallente at least ones I had an alt in.

One of the things we had going for us is Caldari seemed to always have better ECM pilots or made short work of Gallente ECM birds early on in the fights.

Gallente are flying Drakes now because they had to.. Lol
Amadeus3
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#20 - 2011-12-19 12:05:47 UTC
I've been in and out of the milita for years. The last time I went back to Caldari Milita it was in the worst shape I have known it.

IMO the biggest porblem is the quality of FCs. I didn't really appreciate it at the time but the success of WolfsBrigade was down to the organisation and FCing. We were able then to field properly configured fleets with player input, organisation and logistics. We could go toe-to-toe with the pirates corps and win. Being in a fleet was fun.

The sole tactic now is shield nano BC. You get on the filed, set keep distance to the anchor and shoot the primary. Biggest blob wins. Most of the time there is no fight because the smaller blob knows it will loose and doesn't fight. There is virtually no mental input required from the player. Being in a fleet is not fun.

Although the FCs can probably produce the odd battle report where they have been up against a organised pirate corp and won most of the time a Caldari Milita fleet is massacared by a organised pirate fleet that knows what it's doing.

This in my opion is the problem. Poor FCing and tactics creates an environment where there is nothing to aspire to as a player and it doesn't take more than about 6mths before most people will move on to improve their game.

There are some talented small gang players in the Milita and it's a great place to spend 6mths but the milita generally lacks quality at the top.
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