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Worst Ship Bonus Thread
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Liang Nuren
No Salvation
Divine Damnation
#141 - 2011-12-18 04:06:41 UTC
Cambarus wrote:

You can keep saying it all you want, it doesn't make it true. If there have been thousands of people bemoaning the uselessness of the scimi, surely you can link me to a threadnought somewhere
...
That's not looking well for your side I think. That said, even that pales in comparison to my main point on that subject:
If the ship were actually underpowered, people would not be using it. Or, if they were, they would be complaining constantly on the forums about how bad it is. We're not seeing this. There's a reason for that.


I'm looking at historic threads right now. As you might imagine, Scimitar threads are pretty ******* rare - and the people that post in them are even moreso. There's a lot of duplication from people who regularly fly them and most of the people express their opinions many times. Over the first six threads I clicked, I've seen three people in favor of the TL bonus:
- Caius Silvaris
- Davinel Lulinvega
- Regat Kozovv

I've seen these people against it:
- Allahs Warrior
- Bobbechk
- Commander Vic
- Cyan Nuevo
- Dirk Magnum
- Doctor Mabuse
- Dristra
- Gabriel Virtus
- Gizznitt Malikite
- Hugh Ruka
- Ki Tarra
- Lythandros
- Master Han
- Neutrino Sunset
- Nian Banks
- Nullshadow
- Omara Otawan
- Randgris
- Roemy Schneider
- Seishi Maru
- Selim
- Shevar
- Typhado3
- Valea Silpha
- Washell Olivaw

Shall I continue?

EDIT:
Liang Nuren wrote:

]That's not a terrible idea, and is much more reasonable than turning it into a logi with a tank like a sleipnir. (You still haven't posted this 6k/s tanked sleip of yours so I can compare a similarly fit scimi btw)


A few comments:
- Such a suggestion would neuter the Scim's mobility. I bet you'd get far more support for removing the link bonus than for removing one of those lows. :)
- The Sleipnir has more HP. I know you like to ignore this but it really does matter a lot more than you seem to think.
- The Scimitar uses its cap for things other than its own local tank. I know you don't really understand this since you've never flown one like this, but it really doesn't have the capacitor to tank like you're claiming.
- Assume Crystals, Tengu booster. Blue pill is acceptable on the Sleip, but you probably want Mindflood on the Scim (see cap problem above).

Sleipnir:

[Sleipnir, PVP Sleip (Pimp)]
Republic Fleet Gyrostabilizer
Republic Fleet Gyrostabilizer
Republic Fleet Gyrostabilizer
Nanofiber Internal Structure II
Damage Control II

Y-T8 Overcharged Hydrocarbon Microwarpdrive
Medium Capacitor Booster II, Navy Cap Booster 800
Pith B-Type X-Large Shield Booster
Dread Guristas Invulnerability Field
True Sansha Warp Scrambler

220mm Vulcan AutoCannon II, Republic Fleet Phased Plasma M
220mm Vulcan AutoCannon II, Republic Fleet Phased Plasma M
220mm Vulcan AutoCannon II, Republic Fleet Phased Plasma M
220mm Vulcan AutoCannon II, Republic Fleet Phased Plasma M
220mm Vulcan AutoCannon II, Republic Fleet Phased Plasma M
220mm Vulcan AutoCannon II, Republic Fleet Phased Plasma M
220mm Vulcan AutoCannon II, Republic Fleet Phased Plasma M
Medium Unstable Power Fluctuator I

Medium Core Defence Capacitor Safeguard II
Medium Core Defence Capacitor Safeguard II


Hammerhead II x4


Scim:

[Scimitar, 4 Rep (Crystal, Pimp)]
True Sansha Power Diagnostic System
True Sansha Power Diagnostic System
True Sansha Power Diagnostic System
True Sansha Power Diagnostic System

Corelum B-Type 10MN Afterburner
Pith B-Type Large Shield Booster
Invulnerability Field II
Invulnerability Field II
Cap Recharger II

Large Shield Transporter II
Large Shield Transporter II
Large S95a Partial Shield Transporter
Large S95a Partial Shield Transporter

Medium Capacitor Control Circuit II
Medium Capacitor Control Circuit II


Hornet EC-300 x5
Light Armor Maintenance Bot I x4

-Liang

I'm an idiot, don't mind me.
Rip Minner
ARMITAGE Logistics Salvage and Industries
#142 - 2011-12-18 04:13:15 UTC  |  Edited by: Rip Minner
Scimitar fit I like to use for Incursion's.

Hardwiring
1.) Inherent Implants 'Squire' PG8
2.) Inherent Implants 'Squire' CC8

Rigs
1.) Meduim Anti-Kinectic Screen Reinforcer I
2.) Meduim Anti-Explosive Screen Reinforcer I

High Slots
1.) Large S95a Partial Shield Transporter
2.) " "
3.) " "
4.) Large 'Regard' Power Projector

Med Slots
1.) Caldari Navy Invulnerability Field
2.) " "
3.) Federation Navy Tracking Link
4.) " "
5.) " "

Low Slots
1.) Damage Control II
2.) Power Diagnostic System II
3.) " "
4.) " "

Fleet 10 man Incursion Sites

2x Scimitar chain caping/swaping out both Tracking/Optimal scrips as needed. 6 shield reps works fine not every ship needs it's own decated rep.

8x Mach atleast 6 of them as AC set up if not all 8 but can easly swap 2 AC for 2 1400's as needed depending on skill level of Mach pilots as non maxed skilled 1400's dont suffer as much as AC Mach pilots.

No tackler needed Machs are faster then the npc frigs and a 52.5% tracking boost makes fast short work of any frigs that did not get alphed on the way in.

With out the tracking Link bonus your Mach pilots spends more time geting into range for bigger targets or burning away from frigs to burn them down or you drop one-two machs for a tackler's and thats freely giving up DPS something with witch I dont like to do in Incursions.

Edit: And yes this is PvE not PvP build.

Is it a rock point a lazer at it and profit. Is it a ship point a lazer at it and profit. I dont see any problems here.
Liang Nuren
No Salvation
Divine Damnation
#143 - 2011-12-18 04:26:46 UTC
Rip Minner wrote:

1.) Meduim Anti-Kinectic Screen Reinforcer I
2.) Meduim Anti-Explosive Screen Reinforcer I

1.) Caldari Navy Invulnerability Field
3.) Federation Navy Tracking Link


You should upgrade those rigs man - they are literally dirt cheap next to those CN Invs.

Quote:
6 shield reps works fine not every ship needs it's own decated rep.


6 reps is kinda a magic number when looking at Scimitars. While you can squeeze 6 RRs onto a single Basi to take care of repping the entire fleet and then make room for another DPS ship, you're also sacrificing incoming RR to the Basi. I suppose you could bring a Vargur to help the Scim out (yay tracking+falloff bonus), but I'd probably be more comfortable with 2x 3-5 RR Logis at that point - and if the DPS is that low then you may as well fit links.

I guess running 2 Scims with 3 TLs each means that 2 Machs are consistently without boosting? Can you show the performance difference between them and the boosted Machs?

-Liang

I'm an idiot, don't mind me.
Rip Minner
ARMITAGE Logistics Salvage and Industries
#144 - 2011-12-18 04:54:30 UTC  |  Edited by: Rip Minner
Liang Nuren wrote:
Rip Minner wrote:

1.) Meduim Anti-Kinectic Screen Reinforcer I
2.) Meduim Anti-Explosive Screen Reinforcer I

1.) Caldari Navy Invulnerability Field
3.) Federation Navy Tracking Link


You should upgrade those rigs man - they are literally dirt cheap next to those CN Invs.

Quote:
6 shield reps works fine not every ship needs it's own decated rep.


6 reps is kinda a magic number when looking at Scimitars. While you can squeeze 6 RRs onto a single Basi to take care of repping the entire fleet and then make room for another DPS ship, you're also sacrificing incoming RR to the Basi. I suppose you could bring a Vargur to help the Scim out (yay tracking+falloff bonus), but I'd probably be more comfortable with 2x 3-5 RR Logis at that point - and if the DPS is that low then you may as well fit links.

I guess running 2 Scims with 3 TLs each means that 2 Machs are consistently without boosting? Can you show the performance difference between them and the boosted Machs?

-Liang



The TL's are DPS mods and yes we wish we could have 4 each but we lose to much tank that way. And Yes I'm a cheap ars I never even priced out the tech 2 ones lol. Thx u Big smile

But how effective the TL's are depend on ether how far way a target is or how close and fast a target is. When the Machs are in prime possion they do nothing but when were all on are game the targets never last the time needed for the Machs to get into prime possion there for at least 6 out of 8 Machs are geting a dps inc ether in raising fall-off dps from a Opt script or in cuting the time in halve thats needed to burn away from a frig by using a tracking script for him.

All in all I dont have the hard numbers myself I'm always to bussy watching targets and ships but the FC's I have flowen with swear up and down that I help shave 1-2 mins off.

O ya I'm the pilot of both Scimitars so the timing of both Scimitars is High as it gets as I can read my own mind much fast then two differnt pilots and the FC fig out witch Scim is going to TL/Rep witch ship at that time. It's kind of like I FC the Logicis and he FC's the Machs.

He tells me were I need improvement after the fight and I have just goten much much better with exp as most people do. But it's alot more trick using the Scims this way with TL's reather then just reping or cap chaining.


Edit: And the best part is I get two times the rewards at the end. And that dont happen dual boxing level 4's Pirate

Is it a rock point a lazer at it and profit. Is it a ship point a lazer at it and profit. I dont see any problems here.
Cambarus
The Baros Syndicate
#145 - 2011-12-18 21:08:21 UTC
Liang Nuren wrote:
Over the first six threads I clicked, I've seen three people in favor of the TL bonus:
I've seen these people against it:

Shall I continue?


First off, you mention 6 threads. Link all of them.

Second, and this is the really important bit:

If you thought I wasn't going to notice that you changed the sides from "Thinks the scimi doesn't need a boost / Thinks the scimi needs a boost" to "In favour/against the TL bonus" you are very sorely mistaken. Try again. When you're arguing against posts like this:
Cambarus wrote:

That said, even that pales in comparison to my main point on that subject:
If the ship were actually underpowered, people would not be using it. Or, if they were, they would be complaining constantly on the forums about how bad it is. We're not seeing this. There's a reason for that.

Cambarus wrote:

This isn't even about the link bonus any more, it's the ship itself. As I said before, the fact that there are people who use the bonus means that it is by it's very nature NOT a useless bonus.You think it needs a buff, and I honestly can't think of anyone outside this thread mentioning this before, whereas I can think of many, many people who use the scim and think it's just fine, even if they don't use the TL bonus.

Cambarus wrote:

Fair enough. I chose my words poorly, and it would be more accurate to say :
The bulk of eve (myself included) do not believe that the scimi is underpowered, or in need of any major boosts.
Writing up a post that shows how many people like the very niche bonus is trying to change the subject, and it's hilarious that you thought I wasn't going to notice Lol
Boris Ginnungagap
Doomheim
#146 - 2011-12-18 21:30:01 UTC
You know Liang, that Heretic Nation is the place where EVE dumbs their social rejects.
Liang Nuren
No Salvation
Divine Damnation
#147 - 2011-12-19 00:56:43 UTC  |  Edited by: Liang Nuren
Cambarus wrote:
First off, you mention 6 threads. Link all of them.


http://lmgtfy.com/?q=scimitar+tracking+link

Have fun.

Quote:

If you thought I wasn't going to notice that you changed the sides from "Thinks the scimi doesn't need a boost / Thinks the scimi needs a boost" to "In favour/against the TL bonus" you are very sorely mistaken. Try again. When you're arguing against posts like this
...
Writing up a post that shows how many people like the very niche bonus is trying to change the subject, and it's hilarious that you thought I wasn't going to notice


I have consistently stated that the Scimitar needs the tracking link changed to something else -- and so did all of those other people. According to your own arguments, they were all asking for boosts. In fact, there was a non-trivial number of them that were literally saying it needed a boost.

-Liang

Ed: Cambarus, this is my last post on this topic. I will not be entering the thread again. BTW, I accept your concessions on these topics:
- The Basilisk is better than the Scimitar for solo work.
- The Scimitar would not in fact tank like a command ship if its bonus was changed.
- There have been many more people suggesting changes to the Scimitar's bonus than have been in favor of it.

Also, I regret that I've probably lost esteem in your eyes and that you've lost a great amount in mine. I take it all back - you're not a complete moron. But you absolutely are ignorant to the basic day to day workings of logistics work, and you haven't put any thought at all into how to be an effective solo or small gang logistics pilot. I really wish you'd stick to talking about topics you know something about.

Adios.

I'm an idiot, don't mind me.
Liang Nuren
No Salvation
Divine Damnation
#148 - 2011-12-19 00:57:26 UTC
Boris Ginnungagap wrote:
You know Liang, that Heretic Nation is the place where EVE dumbs their social rejects.


I'm just quoting this for ******* hilarity.

-Liang

I'm an idiot, don't mind me.
Cambarus
The Baros Syndicate
#149 - 2011-12-19 01:18:06 UTC  |  Edited by: Cambarus
Liang Nuren wrote:
Cambarus wrote:
First off, you mention 6 threads. Link all of them.


http://lmgtfy.com/?q=scimitar+tracking+link

Have fun.
Normally I would have just told you to prove your own damn argument, but I had some time to kill, and...
Just going off the first page of google, there were a couple of 1 page threads, one of which was from 2004, and ALL of which (aside from the 04 one)were basically variations of people being upset that CCP nerfed tracking links by giving them scripts (GUYS IF WE DONT FIX TLS HOW IS ANYONE GOING TO HIT ALL THOSE 10KM/S NANO PHOONS? Lol)
Plucking a random thread off of eve-search I got this:
http://eve-search.com/thread/1159471-0/page/1#4
Where the OP whines about the TL bonus and everyone else tells him to STFU. Not exactly the army of supporters you claim to have.

Liang Nuren wrote:

I have consistently stated that the Scimitar needs the tracking link changed to something else -- and so did all of those other people. According to your own arguments, they were all asking for boosts. In fact, there was a non-trivial number of them that were literally saying it needed a boost.

-Liang
When I looked I didn't see all these threads, with thousands of people, that you seem to have found. Would you be so kind as to link some of them?
Suleiman Shouaa
The Tuskers
The Tuskers Co.
#150 - 2011-12-19 04:16:16 UTC
Liang I'm not sure exactly how you're flying a Scimitar, but it's designed to mitigate incoming DPS through the combination of fast speed + small sig radius, rather than flat out tanking. You would be surprised by how much damage a single nano Battlecruiser can take facing gangs solo, as long as it is competently flown and the pilot knows when to pull off.

I can't imagine the Scimitar being anything but better at this role, with a much smaller sig radius and being much faster. Use your drones to pick enemy drones off you and know when to pull away to regen some shields back instead of gimping your fits with an AB, sacrificing the greatest thing possible to a small gang - mobility. With ganglinks becoming more and more commonly used, the margin of error between being in point range and thus being easily run down by any shield battlecruiser and being in rep range is small - only ~30km.

As for the actual bonuses, I would suggest the Imicus drone damage bonus, the Legion/Maller/Prophecy cap bonuses to lasers would be strong contenders.

On a side note, Damps are still useful and viable in small gang situations, mostly vs enemy logistics but also against enemy recons.
Grog Barrel
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#151 - 2011-12-19 05:42:47 UTC
Terrible posting in here. I blame the Apos... oh wait.


- barrel of grog
Grog Barrel
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#152 - 2011-12-19 05:50:13 UTC
Dorian Wylde wrote:
Verity Sovereign wrote:

4) Any Amarr Laser cap usage bonus when not accompanied by another laser bonus
.



You do realize that lasers get a cap bonus because they do more damage than other turrets, right?


Do you realize that you are utterly wrong?
Barbie D0ll
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#153 - 2011-12-19 07:18:13 UTC
Grog Barrel wrote:
Dorian Wylde wrote:
Verity Sovereign wrote:

4) Any Amarr Laser cap usage bonus when not accompanied by another laser bonus
.



You do realize that lasers get a cap bonus because they do more damage than other turrets, right?


Do you realize that you are utterly wrong?


my cov-ops legion does more dps and tanks more (thanks to capless guns) with autocannons than lasers
Fix My Lasers
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#154 - 2011-12-19 12:45:49 UTC
Judging by the statistics, most of the people (70%+) fly Minmatar ships, also the most populat t2 ships are minmatar too.
So if you fly t2 minmatar ship you get your uber EM/TH resist.
When I flew them I had like ~90% EM and ~80%+ TH. In other words Amarr-proof.
This meants my lasers are useless in 70% of my fights against t2 minmatar ships.

So why Minmatar/Gallente (drone ships)/Caldari ships can overcome those uber resists by changing the ammo while Amarr is stuck with EM/TH damage only?

No matter how uber-high your DPS is with those Lasers, it will be killed with 90% EM resists.
Amarr ships are great, but only when you use them with ACs otherwise you just can't kill any Minmatar t2 ship.

Bring back Blaze and Lux crystals! http://eve.battleclinic.com/item/i12812-Blaze-L-details.html http://eve.battleclinic.com/item/i12832-Lux-L-details.html
Mfume Apocal
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#155 - 2011-12-19 18:35:58 UTC
Fix My Lasers wrote:
No matter how uber-high your DPS is with those Lasers, it will be killed with 90% EM resists.
Amarr ships are great, but only when you use them with ACs otherwise you just can't kill any Minmatar t2 ship.


Yeah... only in EFT.

I dare you to take anything Minmatar against Hellcats or try Vagas vs. (plated) Zealots.
Cambarus
The Baros Syndicate
#156 - 2011-12-19 22:24:21 UTC  |  Edited by: Cambarus
Mfume Apocal wrote:
Fix My Lasers wrote:
No matter how uber-high your DPS is with those Lasers, it will be killed with 90% EM resists.
Amarr ships are great, but only when you use them with ACs otherwise you just can't kill any Minmatar t2 ship.


Yeah... only in EFT.

I dare you to take anything Minmatar against Hellcats or try Vagas vs. (plated) Zealots.

I actually made this comparison in another thread:
https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=426385#post426385

The TLDR is that in a zealot vs vaga fight, a zealot fleet drops vagas twice as fast as vagas drop zealots, even AFTER factoring in resists (the vagas shooting the zealots weakest resists) and ignoring range (pretending that both are fighting in optimal, even though the vagas are more often in optimal + falloff)

Basically you give every advantage you can to the vagas (to the point of being unrealistic in an actual fight) and the zealots still do TWICE as well, by virtue of minmatar ships being made out of paper.


EDIT: The REASON people fly minmatar so much more than amarr/any other race is NOT that they're better, but that people are much more concerned with NOT LOSING than they are with winning. Given the option they will pretty much always pick the ships that let them pick their fights, which is a pity. It's also one of the reasons I love the idea behind RVB, as well as dicking around with pvp fits on sisi. It's nice to see that there are ways to just log on and shoot some people who are more interested in making things explode than they are with their wallets (though their wallets being sad is the main reason I blow things up on TQ Big smile )