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Player Features and Ideas Discussion

 
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Another ideal for better gameplay with sensors - sound/ELINT

First post
Author
Liet Ormand
Sons of Bacchus
#1 - 2014-12-22 18:41:41 UTC

ELINT stands for Electronic Intelligence.


So here's another idea for adding some depth to gameplay and bettering the current "all or nothing" directional scanner and cloaking systems while also adding a system that uses real life skills to play the game.

Basically, the idea is to create a piece of equipment on ships that listens passively to electronic signals and renders them as sound using the game's sound system. You know how when serpentis rats spawn and you hear suddenly certain sounds in the background noise, voices on the radio and the like? That's just flavor at the moment but it's a good example of how things could work.

Using a directional antenna that can be steered like D-scan, allow players to listen to noises made by other in-system items. There could be signal patterns (and therefore sounds) unique to each ship type and stargate, signals denoting "star" and "wormhole" etc. These could also be rendered visually with a simple "waterfall" graph.

This could also add complexity (and therefore player gameplay choices, which is good) to cloaking. For instance, a cloaked vessel could be invisible to the overview and invisible to D-scan, but if it's emitting radio waves (IE the pilot is typing something) or it's got modules active (which isn't currently allowed, I know) then it could be emitting detectable RF that counts as "noise".

Likewise the use of certain modules (micro jump drives, weapons, etc) could produce a "burst" of noise that would be detectable by anyone listening. Engines could produce a level of noise related to how fast the ship was traveling.

With these sorts of changes, detecting scouts and hidden items would be related to how good the player is at listening, which creates a whole new aspect to PvP combat.
Jake Shifter
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#2 - 2014-12-23 21:42:57 UTC
This is actually a fantastic idea. This would not only add depth to gameplay, which is something i think EVE could use, but it also solves the problem of cloak that people whine about. Cloaking would take skill, manually keeping your engines below a certain speed, careful where you warp to because they'll hear it, etc.
Anhenka
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#3 - 2014-12-23 21:50:36 UTC  |  Edited by: Anhenka
As a representative for the 90% of EVE that has the sound turned off so we can talk to others on Teamspeak, or listen to music, or watch a movie on the other screen:

No. -100 on anything that integrates core gameplay into the sound side of EVE.

Also deaf people, do you hate them?
Zan Shiro
Alternative Enterprises
#4 - 2014-12-24 01:41:11 UTC
lost me at typing something giving away position. I sense roleplayer and the whole immersion bit....

How does me opting to pass time in a completely unrelated comm channel to the op, if on one, tie into you picking up my emissions. I could be in noob channel, corp channel just shooting the crap, etc. This is not super secret embedded agent sending coordinates to strike at. It's me talking to a friend about some topic of interest completely unrelated to the game.

CCP already has less than good voice comms that make 3rd party required...do you really want to kill the usefulness of chat feature as well as it force using irc (variants like Mirc) and such just so I can talk to a friend about last nights show on tv and not give away my position?
Donnachadh
United Allegiance of Undesirables
#5 - 2014-12-24 02:13:47 UTC
To me this seems like another I hate cloaked ships and there needs to be a way to locate them type of topic.

Expand the cloaks to eliminate sounds so they cannot be located by this method, set it up so that it is no more accurate than a D-Scan and I could go for this idea.
McChicken Combo HalfMayo
The Happy Meal
#6 - 2014-12-24 03:36:34 UTC  |  Edited by: McChicken Combo HalfMayo
I think it takes it too far when it comes to someone typing while cloaked or having modules active.
I also think the d-scan tool can be used effectively to scout out more or less the same things this sound tool would use. The fringe cases where this is not true don't seem very useful anyways (ex how fast a ship off-grid is moving).

Most things can also be better scouted out while cloaked on grid, and if we're talking about staying stealthy I'd prefer covert scanner probes to achieve that.

If there are uses where this sound scanner is most appropriate feel free to point them out though, I'm "all ears"... Blink

Anhenka wrote:
Also deaf people, do you hate them?
Should we balance the game around the blind too?

There are all our dominion

Gate camps: "Its like the lowsec watercooler, just with explosions and boose" - Ralph King-Griffin

Anhenka
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#7 - 2014-12-24 03:54:50 UTC
McChicken Combo HalfMayo wrote:
I think it takes it too far when it comes to someone typing or having modules active.
I also think the d-scan tool can be used effectively to scout out more or less the same things this sound tool would use. The fringe cases where this is not true don't seem very useful anyways (ex how fast a ship off-grid is moving).

If I'm wrong though feel free to point out instances where this tool would be more appropriate than d-scan and also useful. I'm all ears.... Blink

Anhenka wrote:
Also deaf people, do you hate them?
Should we balance the game around the blind too?


Braille EVE coming soon.

More seriously, no, but adding in parts of the game that can only be accessed by those with the sound on is bad, since between the repetitive soundtrack and all the various reasons people have to turn off the sounds (coms, third party music, hearing impairment, watching TV, etc) that the vast majority of EVE players do not have the sound on.

"EVE has sound?" is a long running joke about how many people turn the sound off, so why exactly is adding new feature that is dependent on something many players have had off for years a good game design?

Still -1.
Foxicity
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#8 - 2014-12-24 04:24:40 UTC
The typing thing is too much. Other parts of it are too much. But... I can't say no.

Probably because I want to make a Red October joke.

In seriousness, maybe.
Zan Shiro
Alternative Enterprises
#9 - 2014-12-24 04:27:43 UTC
McChicken Combo HalfMayo wrote:


Anhenka wrote:
Also deaf people, do you hate them?
Should we balance the game around the blind too?



Apples and oranges here. Being a visually heavy game well...they won't be doing this.

Deaf though is very workable. I was in a corp with a deaf person. Some kind souls would open a chat channel on ops with them and transcribe important stuff from voice comm's. Alliance leaders were even nice to be accommodating as in time they remembered the name and weren't asshats and very understanding when some delay to his actions. Funny thing is he was a better fleet player with his impairment over some people who could hear fc commands. Those asshats just went own f'ing program or were just rocks really.

And to lose the serious aspect...the line eve has sound is not a even a joke. Its real lol. Got 6 years+ in this game. with no massive change in the music and such....could you listen to the same cd for 6 years, straight?


FT Diomedes
The Graduates
#10 - 2014-12-24 07:11:37 UTC
I have flown with a deaf FC before. Not something I would do again, but props to him for making the effort.

CCP should add more NPC 0.0 space to open it up and liven things up: the Stepping Stones project.

Liet Ormand
Sons of Bacchus
#11 - 2014-12-29 18:12:50 UTC
A few responses to the accumulated posts here:

Quote:
As a representative for the 90% of EVE that has the sound turned off so we can talk to others on Teamspeak, or listen to music, or watch a movie on the other screen


First off, I doubt it's anything as high as you think it is. I suspect more than half the people playing have the sound on, but that's equally as much a guess as your idea is.

I doubt you're doing anything "serious" in Eve while watching a movie. For example, hacking wormhole sites while avoiding gankers or participating in fleet PVP. If you are, more power to you, but you're already handicapping yourself by not paying full attention to the game, so why quibble about another option you won't use?

I'm not suggesting after all that the entire user interface be converted into morse code or something.

The idea of using sound would be a nice extension to electronic warfare, that's all.

Quote:
Also deaf people, do you hate them?


I'm not suggesting that the game be made inaccessible to anyone, and in fact this is something of a straw man argument. You could just as well have posted "You must love blind people" because presumably they would have an advantage when using this sort of system. Whatever is implemented, I'd strongly recommend that there be accommodations made for handicapped people, although unfortunately CCP hasn't seen fit to address this.

FYI, there are already events in-game that only make sounds rather than causing "events". One example being wormhole use.

Quote:
More seriously, no, but adding in parts of the game that can only be accessed by those with the sound on is bad, since between the repetitive soundtrack and all the various reasons people have to turn off the sounds (coms, third party music, hearing impairment, watching TV, etc) that the vast majority of EVE players do not have the sound on.

"EVE has sound?" is a long running joke about how many people turn the sound off, so why exactly is adding new feature that is dependent on something many players have had off for years a good game design?


As above, I think you underestimate the numbers here based on your own perception. Every single person I've talked to who is serious about the game *likes* having the sound on for immersion purposes as well as for the few times it helps you play (losing your cloak, for instance). People even use surround sound.

I'm not suggesting that sound be made the only option for accessing some game parts.. but if I was, I could equally well point out that much of the game is currently only accessible by those with color vision or those with good eyesight. I think what you're really uncomfortable with here is change.

Eve does have sound, and it is used in-game in a few instances where it conveys information that graphics do not. Ask anyone who uses mumble if they like using positional sound in chat, too. Sound can add tremendous depth to the game. Very few games have managed to integrate it properly, but those that have are amazing.

Folks reading this seem to think I'm saying something like "He wants all the detection stuff to be replaced by sound" and reacting to that, which is not the case.

Rather, I think eg. a line of modules that have abilities not easily available in other modules for those that choose to use them would be worthwhile and add some nice options. For example, a module that allows you to listen to RF energy in space. You can choose to use this if you want or not. It's just another alternative to a scan resolution enhancement mod or an expanded probe launcher.

I half agree with the idea that eve's sound is a joke... it's pretty decent in a lot of ways as far as ambient sounds and immersion go, but that's about as modern as a game released before Myst, which came out in 1993, 21 years ago.

Eve could benefit a lot from a sound model that's more than just "Ok, the spaceship is in space, let's play some processed recordings of aircraft pilots talking to make things sound space-y". For heaven's sake, all the ship engines make the same sounds regardless of size!

Quote:

To me this seems like another I hate cloaked ships and there needs to be a way to locate them type of topic.


For the record, I have no problem with cloaking and in fact I think how widespread it is in game is good.

What I DO have a problem with is the way the whole system of cloaking/DScan/sensors is implemented in-game. It resembles something slapped together in time for the original release. It's too simple a system and it's not leaving CCP anywhere to go when they want to tweak ship roles or make something in-game more useful or less useful. See also the announced D-scan change for recon ships.

"Cloaking" should be a range of gray, not an absolute "I'm invisible now" thing. A T1 cloak should make you impossible to detect IF you're not close to the person looking and IF you're not close enough to someone to be visible out a window and IF you're not firing weapons or mining. On the flip side, mining while cloaked should be a choice as should weapons fire.. if you accept that your expensive cloaking device is only going to 50% hide you while you fire your 8 miner IIs at a rock, go for it.

In short, I think CCP should treat E-war as seriously as they treat planetary systems with regard to science... CCP actually simulate system formation via an accretion disk model so they get realistic systems. Electronic warfare should be the same... low observability/stealth doesn't mean you have a cloak of invisibility like Harry Potter, it means if you have the right equipment and know how to use it in the right environment, you can hide.

I can already hear people screaming "BUT....BUT... I LOVE GANKING PEOPLE AND I BOUGHT AN EXPENSIVE STEALTH BOMBBER OMG YOULL RUIN THE GAME OH NOES!!!!"

They'll get over it just like they'll get over any of CCPs other changes.
Foxicity
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#12 - 2014-12-29 18:45:32 UTC
Well spoken. +1 for gray. Not all over the idea in the OP per se, but the gray areas thing sounds good.
Shivanthar
#13 - 2014-12-29 19:49:24 UTC
Liet Ormand wrote:

ELINT stands for Electronic Intelligence.


So here's another idea for adding some depth to gameplay and bettering the current "all or nothing" directional scanner and cloaking systems while also adding a system that uses real life skills to play the game.

Basically, the idea is to create a piece of equipment on ships that listens passively to electronic signals and renders them as sound using the game's sound system. You know how when serpentis rats spawn and you hear suddenly certain sounds in the background noise, voices on the radio and the like? That's just flavor at the moment but it's a good example of how things could work.

Using a directional antenna that can be steered like D-scan, allow players to listen to noises made by other in-system items. There could be signal patterns (and therefore sounds) unique to each ship type and stargate, signals denoting "star" and "wormhole" etc. These could also be rendered visually with a simple "waterfall" graph.

This could also add complexity (and therefore player gameplay choices, which is good) to cloaking. For instance, a cloaked vessel could be invisible to the overview and invisible to D-scan, but if it's emitting radio waves (IE the pilot is typing something) or it's got modules active (which isn't currently allowed, I know) then it could be emitting detectable RF that counts as "noise".

Likewise the use of certain modules (micro jump drives, weapons, etc) could produce a "burst" of noise that would be detectable by anyone listening. Engines could produce a level of noise related to how fast the ship was traveling.

With these sorts of changes, detecting scouts and hidden items would be related to how good the player is at listening, which creates a whole new aspect to PvP combat.


This is such a great idea. Excellent. I liked it. +1
One of the many thing that is missing in this submarine simulation is a hydrophone room emitting sound from the environment ^.^
Actually, it is there already and waiting for this improvement ^.^
Also this not just a "put this and game improves" type of suggestion. It requires heavy listening skills.

_Half _the lies they tell about me **aren't **true.

Shivanthar
#14 - 2014-12-29 19:58:12 UTC  |  Edited by: Shivanthar
Anhenka wrote:
As a representative for the 90% of EVE that has the sound turned off so we can talk to others on Teamspeak, or listen to music, or watch a movie on the other screen:

No. -100 on anything that integrates core gameplay into the sound side of EVE.

Also deaf people, do you hate them?


He just created an idea, which is actually has a quality in it. It is easy to put a spectrum graph as big as one-man watch window, you know. Deaf people would use it then. For every problem, there is a solution.

An idea that already exist actually, just waiting for this improvement. An idea that may have holes here and there, doesn't mean it should be demolished straight away. For deaf people, put spectrum graph, and that's it.

On a side note, why you hate improvements into the core gameplay so much? When rats spawn, radio transmissions could be heard already! Do you also want to remove those I wonder?

This game has a sound. Like it or not, it already gives out some of the information this idea has. People can listen to whatever they want in any game, but if you get a headshot just because you didn't hear "sniper scope zooming" doesn't mean that sound shouldn't exist for the player behind you and stayed safe instead... I pay attention while playing this game, including listening the sounds and I want that improvement. +1

_Half _the lies they tell about me **aren't **true.

Foxicity
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#15 - 2014-12-29 20:26:35 UTC
Shiv I'm all about making sound a more integral part of the game. That is, if the sound design and concepts are good. The idea of hearing other ships or adding more audio cues to observe is good, but it's sort of standing alone.

This sound concept sits in a wasteland of no other sounds worth hearing. Maybe through that lens you can see why these guys are so reserved about it and see it as a gimmick.
Liet Ormand
Sons of Bacchus
#16 - 2014-12-29 20:52:17 UTC
Foxicity wrote:
Shiv I'm all about making sound a more integral part of the game. That is, if the sound design and concepts are good. The idea of hearing other ships or adding more audio cues to observe is good, but it's sort of standing alone.

This sound concept sits in a wasteland of no other sounds worth hearing. Maybe through that lens you can see why these guys are so reserved about it and see it as a gimmick.



So it seems like you're saying that it should be implemented only if the rest of the game's sound system is re-worked?

Or are you using my mention of a new system of using sound to point out that the current way the game uses sound is poor in your opinion?


In what way could it in your opinion be not a "gimmick"?
Anhenka
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#17 - 2014-12-29 21:16:32 UTC  |  Edited by: Anhenka
If I'm online I am on coms. Or watching a movie. Or double/triple boxing. Or all three at the same time.
I don't have sound on, because it would interfere with all the other things I am doing.

And yes, I see you have proposed for those who don't like sound yet another window that must be up on my already heavily windowed screen.

Why?

I either have to have sound on, or pollute my screen with yet another window that is needed to keep myself safe / find targets.
I honestly cannot see a positive to either option.

-1 for any forced integration of sound into EVE.
Foxicity
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#18 - 2014-12-29 21:40:20 UTC
Liet Ormand wrote:
In what way could it in your opinion be not a "gimmick"?


In my mind this would only work in a game where there is already a rich soundscape. Otherwise you will have people like Anhenka here who will complain that they don't want to turn on sound just to be able to keep up with everyone else.

I would very much like to see EVE become a rich soundscape with meaningful sound. Scrams humming, neuts crackling, clangs in the far reaches of your ship as you go into structure. Sound for hostiles dropping out of warp, for going into warp, for running out of ammo (let's be honest, Aura's no substitute for real sound). These would all be great, a real "experience". But it's a huge change from where we are, and there are a lot of toes to step on from here to there. As it stands, sound is non-critical in EVE, and I don't think this is the single idea to change that.
ISD Ezwal
ISD Community Communications Liaisons
ISD Alliance
#19 - 2015-01-10 20:41:16 UTC
Oh hey, I missed this one!

As there now is a brand new stickied thread on the same topic containing a link to this thread for reference shortly, this one gets a lock.

ISD Ezwal Community Communication Liaisons (CCLs)