Skill Discussions

the problem here is why 10m skill points, why not 20 or 100?
And then the complain will be new players cant get into Dreads/carriers/titans and can never compete so we need a implant for that as well...

I think we just need to remember this is not Battlefield

Why not simply remove attributes? Give everyone 2700 SP/h into a pool that they can allocate to whatever skill they have injected? No need to have remaps then. This will also make it easier for new players to not get confused nor will it be the end of the world if they forget to set a skillqueue for the first week as no SP is lost.

Oh and remove learning attributes from all implants while at it.

yea as a returning player, i wanted to make a new specific pvp character.

Gallente - Gallente - Activists

was the bloodline i picked basied on description of that and ended up with 55k sp, most of which wasnt in combat skills.

as for the super implant, they did that before and again people got ganked for it or kept it and sold it for rediculus amouts of isk

the only thing i found annoying was the long playing pvpers camping the newbie stations and career stations duel requesting everyone that undocked.

the only thing i would have liked is a sp total and a specific skill plan AKA, miner, pvp or industry and say 100k sp to assign to the skills, (with limits so no people with lvl 5's) that way people get better in one ship type and dont stampeed towards battleships or T2's before they are ready.

In about a month, a new player can fly and fit T1 frigates as well as someone playing 10 years.

true if your the 10 year old player and know what to train and when.
or have access to a guide, but for a genuine newbie your not going to know what you want to do in eve.

you have a combat log to see most of this.

The part about their resist you can figure out as well.

More like Pay to Lose which is what always happens when newbies try to do this, not that I want to stop someone from giving me a shiny killmail.

You don't win by having more SP than the other guy. You win by being smarter, paying attention, and knowing what you can and can't handle.

This character isn't even a month old, but take a look at my killboard (https://zkillboard.com/character/95307967/). I took out that first Tempest with an Incursus while I was still at 700K SP, and I only just crossed over 1 million SP and I've gotten another Tempest and a Hyperion. So many newbies get this idea in their head that they have to wait years before they can actually accomplish anything, and the reason is because of people like you perpetuating the myth that you need to have all of your skills maxed out at 5 to actually stand a chance in this game.

As pointed out, the game is vastly more forgiving to the new player than in the past. So just get going!

In my opinion the current skillsystem is wrong on many aspects.

As a beginner, who actually loves the game, but is heavily disgusted by the skill system I followed quite a dozen of arguments about the skillsystem on the internet and I can say, that a lot of those arguments are just WRONG.

My background story: I am an extremly dedicated gamer who started ~1year ago and played for around 2 months. Totally liked the depth of the game, but the skillsystem made me quit in rage and I took a break of ~1 year. Recently I started again to give Eve Online another try, because it actually IS a GREAT game, only the skillsystem sucks incredible.

So, lets talk about the arguments. I have seen a lot and most veterans will say "herpderp, if you are good you still win in PvP" or other meaningless gibberish which does not make sense if you exermine the situation closer.


The main aspects of the current Skillsystem have are fundamentally against good gamedesign:


1, Passive/Offline progression. In my opinion (well, my opionion doesnt matter, but I am sure this is some kind of "game design axiom") Passive progression is just wrong in any game. Player should be rewarded for playing the game and not by afking and offlining. I really hope I do not have to discuss this point as its too obvious...
I mean: You play a game to play it? And not to not play it and come back and have it played itself automatically? xD


2, multiplicative scalings and diminishing returns are underestimated. Some people might argue, that there are diminishing returns. So if you are Master 5 you are not a lot stronger than master 4 and I say, this is wrong! In high level PvP every single percentage counts! If I do have 2% less firerate because specialisation is on 4 and not 5 you have a MAJOR DISADVANTAGE. Ofc this will not be apparent to most player because probably their main PvP activity is to focus on weaker targets as a group (so the small difference does not matter), but if you are up vs an equally playerskilled enemy in an equally fitted ship you will lose, if you do 2% less damage. Thats a fact.

And the 2% example is a ridiculious understatement, because in reality there are a lot more stats which multiply with each other, easily to several 10s percent. (Wouldnt be surprised if a Master 5 has 50% more "combat strength" than a Master 4)
Conlusion: Skills put a major imbalace on the game


3, Gateing content. I dont know what game design purpose this has. I mean, if somebody plays a lot and has tons of ISK why shouldnt he be allowed to use a T2 explorer? This just doesnt make sense gateing content by offline time.
Content should be gated by ISK(=dedication, cunning) and playerskill.


4, It disallows people to experiment in a game with a lot of depth. Same example: You want to explore? what you can do is:
-use a sucky ship and play content at a uncomfortable slow pace
-train to T2 (and then maybe find out that you dont like this playstyle). Great.

So basically the Skillsystem punishes experimenting with different playstyles. (For instance I am locked into missile and shield tanking for now. Maybe in 5 years I can REASONABLE try out hybrid and armortanking or I gimp myself by switching or I quit? No good options I have...)


5, The skillsystem encourages people to create alts so they can combine "all" skills into one account. The skillsystem might be a smart idea to generate money for CCP, because people are forced to pay in order to experience the game to its full extend, but on the other side its CONDRADICTIONARY game design.
An MMO where people are encouraged to create alts so they can play alone efficiently? Maybe most casual player dont do this but this behaviour is definitly encouraged.
My opinion: MMO = 1 Player and 1 Account. Simple



I think I gave you 5 strong points against the current skillsystem and I am yet to hear ONE SINGLE reasonable argument why the skillsystem is good!

Actually I try really hard to arrange myself with the skillsystem, I am really looking for reasons why the skillsystem is "ok" or "bearable", because as I said: I totally love Eve because of its complexity.

If I calm down and honestly try to find a pro argument for the skillsystem Id gladly do it, but I cant. What is the purpose of it?
It has only disadvantages.

The best point I can up with is this: "You dont really need 5 years but after (only) 4 months the game will be playable if you focus on a certain playstyle"
But is this really a good argument?


I also thought about alternatives, because unfortunatly most alternatives I read so far are also not that great...

In my opinion there should >>ALAWAYS<< be a potent catch up mechanisms in any game. The point of an MMO is to generate competition and player interaction and not splitting them into different groups with some game mechanisms. (And the playerbase certainly is split if there are corps who are looking for beginner who have 10+ Mio SP, haha the irony! But this is really happening!)


Ok, here is my idea on how a proper skillsystem should look like:

-scale with (active) time investment by SQR(t)
-resetable at a modest up to a high price to allow realignment of playstyle
-must not be maxable and should player force to specialize
-has build in some kind of (small) inflation mechanic which results in a catch up mechanism for new player

Maybe something like a tradeable skillbook which is gained from a lot of different acitivies and gives 1000 Skillpoints if you use it and for every 1 Mio SP you already have, the skillbook gives 10 SP less.


In my opinion the skillsystem is BY FAR the biggest flaw in Eve Online.

I suggest, no I demand, a new +9 implants and they should last 30, 60 or 90 days - and not just the first 14 days crap we have now!

14 days or 35 days is not enough, period. Especially when some players don't even know that they exist. What good does that do them?

If a new implant expires, I can buy a new one and get another 30, 60 or 90 days! For all players, old or new to be fair.

So essentially, we could buy this implant every month and train a lot faster & CCP could sell it in their new store and make extra real money.

Training would still take YEARS and the implant would be lost if podded. And the price needs to be reasonable, less than a month's subscription, since it is NOT an extra subscription! Pretty much everybody would buy it for $5 or $10 bucks.

Not everybody is young and can or will play this game for another 10 or 20 years. I am retired. The way it stands right now, I will be dead before I can fly a carrier or titan with great skills. Think about that people and stop suggesting the skill training is fine. IT CERTAINLY IS NOT FINE.