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Crumplecorn
Eve Cluster Explorations
#81 - 2015-01-10 13:36:48 UTC
Justice Zeta wrote:
OP is correct in that you can't catch up with players who started training their skills years before you did.
To think this, as someone who has actually used the skill system, requires you to not be able to count.

That's impressive.

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Not Liking this post hurts my RL feelings and will be considered harassment
Jdsaf
The Nocturnal Syndicate
#82 - 2015-01-10 14:39:34 UTC
Brigadine Ferathine wrote:


Ok so what is my point? People flame me for it but I have said it time and time again that being new in this game is a joke.

People that start now feel worthless because they are. They will NEVER be on the same level as the vets because they weren't playing the game 11 years ago. Make it possible for people to catch up. EVERY game has a level cap, eve need something too. I understand that it wont be a lvl cap but I have no idea what the solution to this unhealthy trend. Level caps or other mechanics ALLOW people to catch up, this game lacks that. I realize implants exist but why should somebody have to pay that crazy, unrealistic amount of isk for them? Forcing the noobs to buy implants that cost as much as 2-3 navy or pirate faction cruisers makes no sense at all. It is that simple. Flame me if you will but this game needs an intervention on this topic or it will shrivel up and fade away. This graph proves my point.



It is not possible to catch up in all skills, but in 12 months I could get as good as possible in gallente cruisers for example. If I am then flying a gallente cruiser, I have caught up. So yes new players can catch up in their chosen specialization.
Justice Zeta
Doomheim
#83 - 2015-01-10 14:45:00 UTC
Ralph King-Griffin wrote:
Justice Zeta wrote:
OP is correct in that you can't catch up with players who started training their skills years before you did.

each skill only goes to 5,
every time you get a skill to 5 you just caught up to a vet.


I obviously meant total skill points, please don't deliberately misinterpret what I wrote.
Concord Guy's Cousin
Doomheim
#84 - 2015-01-10 15:22:03 UTC  |  Edited by: Concord Guy's Cousin
Justice Zeta wrote:
Ralph King-Griffin wrote:
Justice Zeta wrote:
OP is correct in that you can't catch up with players who started training their skills years before you did.

each skill only goes to 5,
every time you get a skill to 5 you just caught up to a vet.


I obviously meant total skill points, please don't deliberately misinterpret what I wrote.
Total SP is irrelevant, it's what you do with what you have that matters. My 50M SP main is no better in a frigate than someone who has specialised in frigates by training the appropriate skills, probably worse tbh.

The only thing that more SP gives is choice.

ISD LackOfFaith ~ "Your Catalyst was a hamster, and your Retriever smelt of elderberries"

NPC Forum Alt, because reasons.
Justice Zeta
Doomheim
#85 - 2015-01-10 15:32:51 UTC  |  Edited by: Justice Zeta
Concord Guy's Cousin wrote:
Total SP is irrelevant, it's what you do with what you have that matters. My 50M SP main is no better in a frigate than someone who has specialised in frigates by training the appropriate skills, probably worse tbh.

The only advantage that more SP gives is choice.


Having more choice in a sandbox MMO is quite a big deal, which is why total skillpoints is not irrelevant at all. People always like to reduce this argument to the 1v1 PvP scenario, or point to the newbie tackler who tips the balance in a large fight. I don't think anyone is saying someone with a few SP can't contribute in a meaningful way, but having a lot of SP allows you to do so much more, which is why it's understandable for a new player to feel somewhat behind the curve.
Reiisha
#86 - 2015-01-10 15:49:28 UTC
Brigadine Ferathine wrote:
People that start now feel worthless because they are. They will NEVER be on the same level as the vets because they weren't playing the game 11 years ago. Make it possible for people to catch up. EVERY game has a level cap, eve need something too. I understand that it wont be a lvl cap but I have no idea what the solution to this unhealthy trend. Level caps or other mechanics ALLOW people to catch up, this game lacks that. I realize implants exist but why should somebody have to pay that crazy, unrealistic amount of isk for them? Forcing the noobs to buy implants that cost as much as 2-3 navy or pirate faction cruisers makes no sense at all. It is that simple. Flame me if you will but this game needs an intervention on this topic or it will shrivel up and fade away. This graph proves my point.


And yet, people keep playing starcraft, counterstrike, league of legends, despite others having had years of experience...

If you think EVE skills is measurable in skill points, this is not the game for you.

You are basically saying that someone who only ever logs in for 10 years to put some skills in the skillqueue but never actually plays will be a better player than someone who actually played the game for a year. In what universe is this true?

I've been logging in for skills for 10 of the 12 years i've been here (including the last few), but when i log in i see people from 2012 and newer calling the shots and owning me in PvE, PvP and everything else. According to you, i should be absolutely crushing them 'because of stats', but i am not.

Skillpoints are not a measure of progress. Skill points are a measure of the time you've subscribed to the game, nothing more. You actually have to play the game, get experience and understand the game systems in order to progress.

If you don't understand that, EVE is not the game for you, plain and simple. In fact, no game is for you - Even if you get to level 100 in WoW, you will get absolutely CRUSHED by other level 100's in every single way unless you have the skill and experience to play at an equal level.

According to your logic, games without levels, in other words, games where everyone is at equal footing should mean that everyone plays at an equal level. I would love for you to prove that by winning a GSL or WCS in StarCraft 2 some time this year. And if you use the excuse 'but other players are more skilled and have had more practice' - The exact same is true in EVE.

So, instead of whining about skillpoints and stats, play EVE exactly as it was meant to be played. You are not going to be a great player on day 1, but you might be on day 100, or maybe 1000 - When you reach that point, you will know how silly your statements in this thread are.

If you do things right, people won't be sure you've done anything at all...
Concord Guy's Cousin
Doomheim
#87 - 2015-01-10 15:51:23 UTC  |  Edited by: Concord Guy's Cousin
Justice Zeta wrote:
Having more choice in a sandbox MMO is quite a big deal, which is why total skillpoints is not irrelevant at all.
Of course it is, there are only so many relevant SP to each ship class, any extra SP you may or may not have are irrelevant as they have no effect.

Quote:
People always like to reduce this argument to the 1v1 PvP scenario, or point to the newbie tackler who tips the balance in a large fight.
That's because those things are relevant to the discussion at hand, in a 1v1 the actual players skills and knowledge matter as much if not more than the characters SP. Newbies who hero tackle are awesome, newbies en-masse are downright lethal regardless of how many SP their opponents have. A rather large and influential group within Eve started out by throwing newbies (themselves) and cheap ships at some of the most powerful entities of the day, learnt along the way and beat the snot out of their opponents for the most part; TEST followed their example and were quite successful until they imploded, currently BNI have taken that example and run with it successfully.

Quote:
I don't think anyone is saying someone with a few SP can't contribute in a meaningful way
Agreed, someone with a small amount of SP can contribute in a manner disproportionate to the amount of SP they have.

Quote:
but having a lot of SP allows you to do so much more
A lot of SP opens up choices, not an "I win" button.

Quote:
which is why it's understandable for a new player to feel somewhat behind the curve.
The same is true in real life, most people leave school and start a career at the bottom, then work their way up. Passing a driving test doesn't mean you can instantly drive a supercar, or a bus, or an articulated truck, you work your way up to those things.

Life is unfair, Eve reflects that.

ISD LackOfFaith ~ "Your Catalyst was a hamster, and your Retriever smelt of elderberries"

NPC Forum Alt, because reasons.
Odeva Pawen
Fliet Pizza Delivery
Of Essence
#88 - 2015-01-10 16:05:36 UTC
So everyone is talking about how long people have been in the game, but...

That graph shows how old he actual people are who play, not how long they have been playing. Furthermore, I do not see how the median age of the player base means hat new players are not joining the game. It could just mean that older people are joining the game.

Overheat Keyboards! Load Rage posts! Prepare for a long, seething, back and forth about irrelevant things!
Johan Civire
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#89 - 2015-01-10 16:10:25 UTC
A silence sp boost post. To Be honest its not that sp is good or bad. It depends on how you play. To be correct a easy well fit noob ship can kill me even if iam allot older then new players. Because iam a noob in pvp and I don't know how to fight only some basic stuff like all non pvp players are. So you need to think it a little over. Eve is not always pvp only. And if I need to fight agains you I will lose even if I have way more sp than you. Catch my drift here?
Concord Guy's Cousin
Doomheim
#90 - 2015-01-10 16:11:13 UTC
Odeva Pawen wrote:
So everyone is talking about how long people have been in the game, but...

That graph shows how old he actual people are who play, not how long they have been playing. Furthermore, I do not see how the median age of the player base means hat new players are not joining the game. It could just mean that older people are joining the game.
The whole thread was started by a misunderstanding, which turned into a "people have more SP than me, it's so unfair" fest Sad

ISD LackOfFaith ~ "Your Catalyst was a hamster, and your Retriever smelt of elderberries"

NPC Forum Alt, because reasons.
Orlacc
#91 - 2015-01-10 17:17:57 UTC
Same people who write this drivel are usually the same way in RL. Whiners.

"Measure Twice, Cut Once."
Herzyr
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#92 - 2015-01-10 18:44:35 UTC
Oh god this horse again.

Said cheese with whiners need to realize that you are using only a small part of your pool of SP when doing something, nothing can stop a newbro from training the same specialization skills and become just as good as a vet, the only good things veteran have over newbros is that they have a lot of flexibility when switching ships and tasks, and obviously, real experience in the game.
ISD Ezwal
ISD Community Communications Liaisons
ISD Alliance
#93 - 2015-01-10 18:49:58 UTC  |  Edited by: ISD Ezwal
Brigadine Ferathine wrote:
If CCP locks this post it just proves the point that their style of management and development weather it be intentional or unintentional is to give the advantage to those who have played for 11 years and make it a joke for newer people to even be in the ballpark with them. By locking this thread you sensor a voice that isn't pointing out something untrue making me a marder in a community that resembles Soviet Russia.
I beg your pardon? For one, I'm not CCP. Granted I answer to them directly, but you can hardly state the company as a whole has a certain standpoint because a moderator closes a thread for it breaking the forum rules.

The second thing is that your thread will be locked for the following reasons that have very little to do with the actual content of your post:

The Rules:
3. Ranting is prohibited.

A rant is a post that is often filled with angry and counter productive comments. A free exchange of ideas is essential to building a strong sense of community and is helpful in development of the game and community. Rants are disruptive, and incite flaming and trolling. Please post your thoughts in a concise and clear manner while avoiding going off on rambling tangents.

12. Discussion of forum moderation is prohibited.

The discussion of EVE Online forum moderation actions generally leads to flaming, trolling and baiting of our ISD CCL moderators. As such, this type of discussion is strictly prohibited under the forum rules. If you have questions regarding the actions of a moderator, please file a support ticket under the Community & Forums Category.

31. Abuse of CCP employees and ISD volunteers is prohibited.

CCP operate a zero tolerance policy on abuse of CCP employees and ISD volunteers. This includes but is not limited to personal attacks, trolling, “outing” of CCP employee or ISD volunteer player identities, and the use of any former player identities when referring to the aforementioned parties.
Our forums are designed to be a place where players and developers can exchange ideas in a polite and friendly manner for the betterment of EVE Online. Players who attack or abuse employees of CCP, or ISD volunteers, will be permanently banned from the EVE Online forums across all their accounts with no recourse, and may also be subject to action against their game accounts.

ISD Ezwal Community Communication Liaisons (CCLs)