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Nightmare PVE ?
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Grog Barrel
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#21 - 2011-12-19 05:45:10 UTC
highs: artillery
meds: warp scramblers and webs
lows: cargohold exp
Fix My Lasers
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#22 - 2011-12-19 10:07:42 UTC
Sphit Ker wrote:
Alias222 wrote:
any1 got a good nightmare pve set up for ratting, complex etc ?


**** Nightmare. Acquire Mealstrom.

I must be kidding, right? I'm not. Check this out:

Nightmare has bonus to tracking and damage. It means Abaddon DPS along some kind of tracking boost. An "all 5" Nightmare with Mega Pulse turrets barely beat an average, everyday normal non-bonused 800mm AC on tracking. By "barely beat" I mean something silly like 0.002 rads. It's that dumb. You have to use Tachyons to make it count... and yet it's still funny.

Nightmare cost a billion ISK for the hull alone. Maelstrom is what? 170 mil on a bad day? Pimp out a Mael a little with a set of faction gyros and a good shield booster and boost amp. Saves ISK, rake in more ISK.

Nightmare is stuck with laser DPS profile yet it have plain standard Tech 1 resist profile. Laser DPS means yo have to shoot at Sanshas and Bloods for best efficiency yet these guys also happen to shoot laser DPS at you... That nugget is stuck exposing itself to it's natural weakness. Now, let me tell you about selectable damage type of projectile turrets... and zero activation cost?

Get a Maelstrom. Use the 800 mil or so you'll save on the hull alone and pimp it out a little where it counts. Maelstrom enjoys a bonus to shield boosting on top of that, Nightmare does not.


Totaly agree.
Mael is way better with damage types and tracking and no cap use and tracking and shield boosting bonus and so on.

Pimped out Mael performs much better then pimped out Nightmare. That's a fact.
Moreover its price 10x times lower.

Bring back Blaze and Lux crystals! http://eve.battleclinic.com/item/i12812-Blaze-L-details.html http://eve.battleclinic.com/item/i12832-Lux-L-details.html
Fix My Lasers
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#23 - 2011-12-19 10:11:06 UTC
Alias222 wrote:
is the nightmare any good for guristas rats ?, say null sec sanctums, plexs or is it no good ?


It is a nightmare for a Nightmare to kill guristas. They have a very high EM resist.
Takes ages to kill them.

Bring back Blaze and Lux crystals! http://eve.battleclinic.com/item/i12812-Blaze-L-details.html http://eve.battleclinic.com/item/i12832-Lux-L-details.html
Sven Galli
Drama Inc.
#24 - 2011-12-19 13:29:27 UTC
I don't always fly a Nightmare, but when i do, it looks like a Machariel.

I have a nightmare and a paladin and they collect dust, but that has more to do with the fact that I live in serp space.
Mike712
Tenth Plague of Egypt
#25 - 2011-12-19 13:46:09 UTC  |  Edited by: Mike712
Fix My Lasers wrote:
Alias222 wrote:
is the nightmare any good for guristas rats ?, say null sec sanctums, plexs or is it no good ?


It is a nightmare for a Nightmare to kill guristas. They have a very high EM resist.
Takes ages to kill them.


A good nightmare will of course use tachs which means multifrequency crystals at almost all typical engagement ranges. Multifrequency does almost a good chunk of it's damage as thermal at a ratio of 23 thermal to 32 EM damage, combine that with the epic raw damage and alpha of the nightmare and it's actually pretty damn efficient at dispatching guristas NPCs(even compared to a well fit CNR/Golem/Kronos).

The only faction where the nightmare struggles is angels as they are highly resistant to both EM and thermal.

For anything weak to both EM and thermal nothing competes with a nightmare for raw killing speed, not even a machariel and definitely not a mealstrom. A tach nightmare does near enough 1000 DPS with more than sufficient tracking to get excelent hit quality at ranges out to 50km, whereas by that range any autocannon ship is fighting in very deep falloff and loosing a good % of it's DPS.

Regards, Mike712 The BattleClinic Team
Fix My Lasers
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#26 - 2011-12-19 14:54:59 UTC
Mike712 wrote:
Fix My Lasers wrote:
Alias222 wrote:
is the nightmare any good for guristas rats ?, say null sec sanctums, plexs or is it no good ?


It is a nightmare for a Nightmare to kill guristas. They have a very high EM resist.
Takes ages to kill them.


A good nightmare will of course use tachs which means multifrequency crystals at almost all typical engagement ranges. Multifrequency does almost a good chunk of it's damage as thermal at a ratio of 23 thermal to 32 EM damage, combine that with the epic raw damage and alpha of the nightmare and it's actually pretty damn efficient at dispatching guristas NPCs(even compared to a well fit CNR/Golem/Kronos).

The only faction where the nightmare struggles is angels as they are highly resistant to both EM and thermal.

For anything weak to both EM and thermal nothing competes with a nightmare for raw killing speed, not even a machariel and definitely not a mealstrom. A tach nightmare does near enough 1000 DPS with more than sufficient tracking to get excelent hit quality at ranges out to 50km, whereas by that range any autocannon ship is fighting in very deep falloff and loosing a good % of it's DPS.


I won't be complaining, but Math better explains how things are.
Since I have almost every PvE ship with perfect skills I will be judging by my stats.

All are fitted with faction stuff and implants. T1 Ammo to compare.
Vargur: ~960 (956) DPS with Phased Plasma, 5 + 73 km. ACs
Golem: ~1030 (1026) with Juggernaut Torpedo, ~47 km. Siege Launcher
Kronos: ~810 (813) with Antimatter, 49 + 51 km. Rails
Nightmare: ~940 (935) with Mulifreq., 49 + 50 km. Tachs

Now percentages of damage type:
Vargur: TH: 85%, KIN: 15%
Golem: 100% KIN, obviously.
Kronos: TH: 40%, KIN: 60%
Nightmare: TH: 40%, EM: 60%

Average guristas BS resists on the shield and armor are:
EM: 70%
EXP: 60%
KIN: 40%
TH: 50%

So the math of DPS vs Resists is:
Vargur: 494
Golem: 618
Kronos: 453
Nightmare: 357

So my conclusion that Nightmare is not even close to Golem or Vargur, and ~100 DPS less then Kronos.

Not really efficient against guristas at all.

Bring back Blaze and Lux crystals! http://eve.battleclinic.com/item/i12812-Blaze-L-details.html http://eve.battleclinic.com/item/i12832-Lux-L-details.html
Mike712
Tenth Plague of Egypt
#27 - 2011-12-19 17:21:06 UTC
Fix My Lasers wrote:


I won't be complaining, but Math better explains how things are.
Since I have almost every PvE ship with perfect skills I will be judging by my stats.

All are fitted with faction stuff and implants. T1 Ammo to compare.
Vargur: ~960 (956) DPS with Phased Plasma, 5 + 73 km. ACs
Golem: ~1030 (1026) with Juggernaut Torpedo, ~47 km. Siege Launcher
Kronos: ~810 (813) with Antimatter, 49 + 51 km. Rails
Nightmare: ~940 (935) with Mulifreq., 49 + 50 km. Tachs

Now percentages of damage type:
Vargur: TH: 85%, KIN: 15%
Golem: 100% KIN, obviously.
Kronos: TH: 40%, KIN: 60%
Nightmare: TH: 40%, EM: 60%

Average guristas BS resists on the shield and armor are:
EM: 70%
EXP: 60%
KIN: 40%
TH: 50%

So the math of DPS vs Resists is:
Vargur: 494
Golem: 618
Kronos: 453
Nightmare: 357

So my conclusion that Nightmare is not even close to Golem or Vargur, and ~100 DPS less then Kronos.

Not really efficient against guristas at all.


Pretty sure you're resist figures are way off, there are many sources but it's hard to know which are accurate. The source I'm looking at states that no guristas NPC has EM resist higher than 60%(Pith Usurper) most have an EM resist of between 12% and 30% on shields with 60% across the board on armor.

Also guristas tend to orbit at 30-35km where the Vargur will actually be doing 700-750 DPS, and the Vargur, Golem and Kronos will likely be perma jammed fighting guristas meaning their DPS is actually 0...

Regards, Mike712 The BattleClinic Team
Fix My Lasers
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#28 - 2011-12-19 18:11:08 UTC
Mike712 wrote:
Fix My Lasers wrote:


I won't be complaining, but Math better explains how things are.
Since I have almost every PvE ship with perfect skills I will be judging by my stats.

All are fitted with faction stuff and implants. T1 Ammo to compare.
Vargur: ~960 (956) DPS with Phased Plasma, 5 + 73 km. ACs
Golem: ~1030 (1026) with Juggernaut Torpedo, ~47 km. Siege Launcher
Kronos: ~810 (813) with Antimatter, 49 + 51 km. Rails
Nightmare: ~940 (935) with Mulifreq., 49 + 50 km. Tachs

Now percentages of damage type:
Vargur: TH: 85%, KIN: 15%
Golem: 100% KIN, obviously.
Kronos: TH: 40%, KIN: 60%
Nightmare: TH: 40%, EM: 60%

Average guristas BS resists on the shield and armor are:
EM: 70%
EXP: 60%
KIN: 40%
TH: 50%

So the math of DPS vs Resists is:
Vargur: 494
Golem: 618
Kronos: 453
Nightmare: 357

So my conclusion that Nightmare is not even close to Golem or Vargur, and ~100 DPS less then Kronos.

Not really efficient against guristas at all.


Pretty sure you're resist figures are way off, there are many sources but it's hard to know which are accurate. The source I'm looking at states that no guristas NPC has EM resist higher than 60%(Pith Usurper) most have an EM resist of between 12% and 30% on shields with 60% across the board on armor.

Also guristas tend to orbit at 30-35km where the Vargur will actually be doing 700-750 DPS, and the Vargur, Golem and Kronos will likely be perma jammed fighting guristas meaning their DPS is actually 0...


Even with 750 DPS Vargur or Mael will outdamage Nightmare.
Just a sad fact.

Bring back Blaze and Lux crystals! http://eve.battleclinic.com/item/i12812-Blaze-L-details.html http://eve.battleclinic.com/item/i12832-Lux-L-details.html
RubyPorto
RubysRhymes
#29 - 2011-12-19 19:05:02 UTC
Fix My Lasers wrote:

Even with 750 DPS Vargur or Mael will outdamage Nightmare.
Just a sad fact.


Why insist on shooting lasers at Em/Thermal resistant rats?


When I go out for a run, I have a choice between wearing Stilettos and Running shoes. Should I get to complain to the shoe store when I break my ankle running a marathon in stilettos?

"It's easy to speak for the silent majority. They rarely object to what you put into their mouths." -Abrazzar "the risk of having your day ruined by other people is the cornerstone with which EVE was built" -CCP Solomon
Fix My Lasers
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#30 - 2011-12-19 20:59:11 UTC  |  Edited by: Fix My Lasers
RubyPorto wrote:
Fix My Lasers wrote:

Even with 750 DPS Vargur or Mael will outdamage Nightmare.
Just a sad fact.


Why insist on shooting lasers at Em/Thermal resistant rats?


When I go out for a run, I have a choice between wearing Stilettos and Running shoes. Should I get to complain to the shoe store when I break my ankle running a marathon in stilettos?



Because someone wants to use Nightmare for killing some guristas.
Why? I have no idea.

Maybe because SPs are not allowing him to use any other ship.

Bring back Blaze and Lux crystals! http://eve.battleclinic.com/item/i12812-Blaze-L-details.html http://eve.battleclinic.com/item/i12832-Lux-L-details.html
Chainsaw Plankton
FaDoyToy
#31 - 2011-12-19 21:14:33 UTC
Nightmare isn't actually all that bad vs guristas, by no means great, but better than a lot of other choices. if you only get the occasional guristas mission (like in amarr space) it is completely workable, especially since the 2 gurista missions you do get one is full of little crappy ships that get vaporized by any ship, and the other is the Assault which is easily blitzable in a nightmare. heck nightmare is probably one of the best ships for blitzing the assault, warp in and instapop the small stuff, and takes a little longer on the battleships but you do rather high base dps,no defenders, and less likely to get jammed than a marauder, but worse damage type. tengu/kronos/maybeCNR, are the ones I'd think would be better, don't remember if you have to kill the 2 elite frigs, I usually do because with guns it is very easy and they scramble.

the blitz on GE probably wouldn't be too painful,

@ChainsawPlankto on twitter
Munio J Makeanen
United Starbase Systems
#32 - 2011-12-19 21:55:05 UTC
Sphit Ker wrote:
Still wanking yourself for a Nightmare?

Maelstrom 100mb/s drone bandwidth. 100m3 drone bay
Nightmare only 75 on both.

Go ahead and make your case. Nightmare is not good enough.

Maelstrom has EMP ammo... just dandy against Bloods and Sanshas.
Projective turrets have tracking bonused ammo on top of that.

What's up with the tracking bonus of Nightmare already?

ok. Nightmare will beat Nightmare against these exact two rat type. Then what? You're stuck there.


OK usually I do not include my self in this type of debates but by coincident we did a test yesterday. Guy wanted to test out his Varg Kit on Mael hull before going in with Hull he never flew.

So we had a Nightmare and a Maestrom in mission. Auto cannon pretty much same level of Faction stuff almost identical XL cap boosted fit with tracking comps faction gyros and all that bling.

Enemies were actually Gallente Navy so not optimal for Nightmare but Phased plasma ammo [faction I might add].

I have less SP then the guy in gunnery and not perfect nightmare and stil l was beating him by about 30 % or bi less lets call it 20% on killing same exact name of Bships and cruisers.

For Drones, Bloods, Sansha, Gal navy and that means Serps as well, Nightmare will kick the teeth out of a Maelstrom in all but tank but it can tank more then enough for lvl 4s.

For Guristas Mordus and similar it is competitive and for Angels Maelstrom will beat it.

Make you own conclusions Did several mission was not even competition when nightmare was killing bloods or Sansha.

so to conclude 3 main points

1 Don't bother with Mael against Nightmare comparisons

2 Vargur should be the ship to compare a Nightmare agains

3 Fall off is NOT optimal :)

Thanks for attention

TLDR

Nightmare is better then Maelstrom
Sven Galli
Drama Inc.
#33 - 2011-12-19 23:21:25 UTC
Fix My Lasers wrote:
Mike712 wrote:
Fix My Lasers wrote:
Alias222 wrote:
is the nightmare any good for guristas rats ?, say null sec sanctums, plexs or is it no good ?


It is a nightmare for a Nightmare to kill guristas. They have a very high EM resist.
Takes ages to kill them.


A good nightmare will of course use tachs which means multifrequency crystals at almost all typical engagement ranges. Multifrequency does almost a good chunk of it's damage as thermal at a ratio of 23 thermal to 32 EM damage, combine that with the epic raw damage and alpha of the nightmare and it's actually pretty damn efficient at dispatching guristas NPCs(even compared to a well fit CNR/Golem/Kronos).

The only faction where the nightmare struggles is angels as they are highly resistant to both EM and thermal.

For anything weak to both EM and thermal nothing competes with a nightmare for raw killing speed, not even a machariel and definitely not a mealstrom. A tach nightmare does near enough 1000 DPS with more than sufficient tracking to get excelent hit quality at ranges out to 50km, whereas by that range any autocannon ship is fighting in very deep falloff and loosing a good % of it's DPS.


I won't be complaining, but Math better explains how things are.
Since I have almost every PvE ship with perfect skills I will be judging by my stats.

All are fitted with faction stuff and implants. T1 Ammo to compare.
Vargur: ~960 (956) DPS with Phased Plasma, 5 + 73 km. ACs
Golem: ~1030 (1026) with Juggernaut Torpedo, ~47 km. Siege Launcher
Kronos: ~810 (813) with Antimatter, 49 + 51 km. Rails
Nightmare: ~940 (935) with Mulifreq., 49 + 50 km. Tachs

Now percentages of damage type:
Vargur: TH: 85%, KIN: 15%
Golem: 100% KIN, obviously.
Kronos: TH: 40%, KIN: 60%
Nightmare: TH: 40%, EM: 60%

Average guristas BS resists on the shield and armor are:
EM: 70%
EXP: 60%
KIN: 40%
TH: 50%

So the math of DPS vs Resists is:
Vargur: 494
Golem: 618
Kronos: 453
Nightmare: 357

So my conclusion that Nightmare is not even close to Golem or Vargur, and ~100 DPS less then Kronos.

Not really efficient against guristas at all.


Maybe I'm just not seeing it and i'm not sure what Guristas orbit at, but all i'm seeing here is eft numbers with out taking into account dps lost due to being outside of optimal.
Mr Floydy
Questionable Ethics.
Ministry of Inappropriate Footwork
#34 - 2011-12-19 23:33:57 UTC
Yeh at 50km isn't the Vargur down from around 950 dps down to a mere 650 or so before resists? Nightmare keeps on hitting hard through brute force :)

Sure there are places where the Vargur will beat the Nightmare, but its swings and roundabouts.

As for the Mael? It is massively lacking in range on autocannons when compared to a Nightmare - so what if it tanks better. Anyone who has flown a Nightmare in missions knows full well it tanks enough and kills things quick enough to reduce dps to a non-problematic level. Change the Mael to arty and it still has less range and puts out less dps.
Fix My Lasers
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#35 - 2011-12-20 05:27:09 UTC  |  Edited by: Fix My Lasers
Still. At 50km Vargur will be doing the same DPS to guristas as Nightmare.
But mostly they orbit at 31km, which gives Vargur around ~780DPS.

So as I said, Nightmare is the worst choice.

edit: And about range and DPS lost:
This is what you choose, to shoot at 100km or at 20. It doesn't concern calculations.

Bring back Blaze and Lux crystals! http://eve.battleclinic.com/item/i12812-Blaze-L-details.html http://eve.battleclinic.com/item/i12832-Lux-L-details.html
ShadowFire15
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#36 - 2011-12-20 06:50:31 UTC
Zhilia Mann wrote:
Alias222 wrote:
is the nightmare any good for guristas rats ?


No.


i beg to differ. of course tanking sanctums by yourself may be a problem. not sure but the damage is still pretty good.

[i]Stan Smith had a snow storm over weekend guy was shoveling snow outside, so i shot him and mined the snow myself. concord never showed up. on an unrelated note, i have a court date next tuesday[/i]
Malcanis
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
#37 - 2011-12-20 09:01:40 UTC
ShadowFire15 wrote:
Zhilia Mann wrote:
Alias222 wrote:
is the nightmare any good for guristas rats ?


No.


i beg to differ. of course tanking sanctums by yourself may be a problem. not sure but the damage is still pretty good.


It gets the job done, but if you're mainly going to be shooting Guristas then you're not playing to its strengths. I'd certainly choose a CNR over a Nightmare for Guristas killing. (I can't fly Marauders but a Golem would probably be extremely good also)

For agents which have a predominance of Sansha/Blood rats and resist-neutral rats like Mercs, the Nightmare is a murderboat. A 3-4 slot T2 tank is enough. One thing many people neglect to include is a good afterburner, which I would unhesitatingly recommend for a PvE Nightmare.

"Just remember later that I warned against any change to jump ranges or fatigue. You earned whats coming."

Grath Telkin, 11.10.2016
Brotha Umad
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#38 - 2011-12-20 13:45:38 UTC
RubyPorto wrote:
Fix My Lasers wrote:

Even with 750 DPS Vargur or Mael will outdamage Nightmare.
Just a sad fact.


Why insist on shooting lasers at Em/Thermal resistant rats?


When I go out for a run, I have a choice between wearing Stilettos and Running shoes. Should I get to complain to the shoe store when I break my ankle running a marathon in stilettos?


Anyway it's cheating to bring an inty to a marathon.
Zhilia Mann
Tide Way Out Productions
#39 - 2011-12-20 23:30:40 UTC  |  Edited by: Zhilia Mann
ShadowFire15 wrote:
Zhilia Mann wrote:
Alias222 wrote:
is the nightmare any good for guristas rats ?


No.


i beg to differ. of course tanking sanctums by yourself may be a problem. not sure but the damage is still pretty good.


If you're going to drop 1.5 bil on a ship/fittings specifically to kill Guristas, a Nightmare is very low on the list of ships you'd choose. Off the top of my head and in no particular order, I'd rather have a Tengu, CNR, Golem, Machariel, Vargur, Rattlesnake, Nighthawk, Kronos, and perhaps either a Maelstrom or Navy Dominix. Edit: or an Ishtar. Love those things for Guristas.

I love my Nightmare. But I know full well there are better options for killing Guristas.
Mike712
Tenth Plague of Egypt
#40 - 2011-12-20 23:57:37 UTC
Malcanis wrote:
ShadowFire15 wrote:
Zhilia Mann wrote:
Alias222 wrote:
is the nightmare any good for guristas rats ?


No.


i beg to differ. of course tanking sanctums by yourself may be a problem. not sure but the damage is still pretty good.


It gets the job done, but if you're mainly going to be shooting Guristas then you're not playing to its strengths. I'd certainly choose a CNR over a Nightmare for Guristas killing. (I can't fly Marauders but a Golem would probably be extremely good also)

For agents which have a predominance of Sansha/Blood rats and resist-neutral rats like Mercs, the Nightmare is a murderboat. A 3-4 slot T2 tank is enough. One thing many people neglect to include is a good afterburner, which I would unhesitatingly recommend for a PvE Nightmare.


Nope golem is terrible for guristas, it gets perma jammed even with ECCM fitted(which means 1 less target painter).

Sat in assault lv4 jammed for 20 mins, came back in CNR and finished mission, never used a marauder for guristas again, seriously you'll discover rats which you never previously knew had ECM flying a marauder lol.



Back to the nightmare, no it would not be my first choice for guristas, but it works better than any marauder because it won't get perma jammed and is not that far behind a CNR/tengu, because guristas EM resist IS NOT THAT HIGH, their highest resist is EXP.

Regards, Mike712 The BattleClinic Team
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