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Heavy Missiles, lets make them interesting

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Soraellion
#81 - 2015-01-08 22:40:08 UTC  |  Edited by: Soraellion
The Ferox doesn't have a TP fitted so no. If the web and painter are fitted (to get comparable EHP between the two ships) then you'll have to use them as well. If you choose to not apply them specifically to the drake alone then you need to remove them and add invuls or whatever, which would of course create a discrepancy.

What you're doing right now is inherently skewed, not saying you're doing it on purpose but it's very much wrong.
Mario Putzo
#82 - 2015-01-08 22:48:09 UTC
Soraellion wrote:
The Ferox doesn't have a TP fitted so no. If the web and painter are fitted (to get comparable EHP between the two ships) then you'll have to use them as well. If you choose to not apply them specifically to the drake alone then you need to remove them and add invuls or whatever, which would of course create a discrepancy.

What you're doing right now is inherently skewed, not saying you're doing it on purpose but it's very much wrong.



The effect of Webs and Painters are being applied to the Caracal through the projected effect function on the fitting window of the caracal.

http://imgur.com/jXSCEe8

Soraellion
#83 - 2015-01-08 22:52:05 UTC  |  Edited by: Soraellion
Yes and because of that the Ferox is also benefitting from a painter, while not having one. Tbh, it's ridiculous you're even defending it. I also like how your web reaches out all the ay to max range, you're distorting facts.
Mario Putzo
#84 - 2015-01-08 22:56:02 UTC  |  Edited by: Mario Putzo
Soraellion wrote:
Yes and because of that the Ferox is also benefitting from a painter, while not having one. Tbh, it's ridiculous you're even defending it. I also like how your web reaches out all the ay to max range, you're distorting facts.


Right because there is no way at all to apply webs and tps to a ship that both a drake and ferox can be shooting at.

**** lets assume the ferox and drake are attacking the same guy. If the Drake puts webs and painters on...the Ferox gets the advantage too! Oh we are engaging at 40K ok imagine a little merlin is tackling the Caracal using a TP and a Web. Got it?

Fantastic.

I am not distorting facts. My points are very clear. God damn.
Soraellion
#85 - 2015-01-08 23:04:09 UTC  |  Edited by: Soraellion
If they apply to both you either fit them to both or you remove them from both. So on the Ferox that means less EHP or the loss of the TC or you start adding invuls to the Drake. Either way, we'll have a nice discussion on why it's ok for the Drake to have more EHP than the Ferox while you also think its weapons need to be buffed to be on par number wise :)
afkalt
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#86 - 2015-01-08 23:17:45 UTC
Mario Putzo wrote:
Soraellion wrote:
Yes and because of that the Ferox is also benefitting from a painter, while not having one. Tbh, it's ridiculous you're even defending it. I also like how your web reaches out all the ay to max range, you're distorting facts.


Right because there is no way at all to apply webs and tps to a ship that both a drake and ferox can be shooting at.

**** lets assume the ferox and drake are attacking the same guy. If the Drake puts webs and painters on...the Ferox gets the advantage too! Oh we are engaging at 40K ok imagine a little merlin is tackling the Caracal using a TP and a Web. Got it?

Fantastic.

I am not distorting facts. My points are very clear. God damn.


You're hitting the same walls I was hitting.

They'll cherry pick facts which have nothing to do with the point at hand, have zero impact on an actual likely scenario all the while claiming this proves HML are 'fine' as a result.

You'll notice no balanced charts from them - even the recent ones are like different gun ammunition doesn't exist.

It's like poking water uphill with a stick.
Mario Putzo
#87 - 2015-01-08 23:19:59 UTC
Soraellion wrote:
If they apply to both you either fit them to both or you remove them from both. So on the Ferox that means less EHP or the loss of the TC or you start adding invuls to the Drake. Either way, we'll have a nice discussion on why it's ok for the Drake to have more EHP than the Ferox while you also think its weapons need to be buffed to be on par :)


You have seriously got to be shitting me.

I am comparing weapons damage application that is all. I could have literally left all other spots unfilled and just compared against effects that impact application. What is fitted on the ships other than damage application modules is ******* irrelevant. Where the Webs and TPs come from is ******* irrelevant.

The only thing that matters is that Rails apply more damage on average from 5K-80K+.

In regards to the Drake having more EHP than the Ferox. Of course it should, the Ferox has an engagement range of nearly double the Drake. (115Kish vs 65K).

The only part of these fits that matters are the weapons, and the application mods. Everything else can be stripped out, and you will still get the same result.

The only reason the drake has webs and painter in its mids is because I was to lazy to fit a fourth ship to apply them to the Caracal.

scorchlikeshiswhiskey
Totally Abstract
O X I D E
#88 - 2015-01-08 23:20:17 UTC  |  Edited by: scorchlikeshiswhiskey
Soraellion wrote:
If they apply to both you either fit them to both or you remove them from both. So on the Ferox that means less EHP or the loss of the TC or you start adding invuls to the Drake. Either way, we'll have a nice discussion on why it's ok for the Drake to have more EHP than the Ferox while you also think its weapons need to be buffed to be on par :)

Because long range fits typically rely on range as part of their tank? Maybe? Besides, if you're being shot with Heavies you really don't need a lot of tank. Cool
Nice distraction from an example that shows you were mistaken about application though.

Edit for spelling mistake.
Soraellion
#89 - 2015-01-08 23:22:35 UTC
scorchlikeshiswhiskey wrote:
Soraellion wrote:
If they apply to both you either fit them to both or you remove them from both. So on the Ferox that means less EHP or the loss of the TC or you start adding invuls to the Drake. Either way, we'll have a nice discussion on why it's ok for the Drake to have more EHP than the Ferox while you also think its weapons need to be buffed to be on par :)

Because long range fits typically rely on range as part of their tank? Maybe? Besides, if you're being shot with Heavies you really don't need a lot of tank. Cool
Nice distraction from an example that shows your were mistaken about application though.


You realise that he's purposely messed up his "proof" right? The ferox applies more dps than it can do because it's being helped by a painter it doesn't have.
afkalt
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#90 - 2015-01-08 23:23:15 UTC
Mario Putzo wrote:
The only thing that matters is that Rails apply more damage on average from 5K-80K+.


At at a worst possible case for transversal.
scorchlikeshiswhiskey
Totally Abstract
O X I D E
#91 - 2015-01-08 23:28:04 UTC
Soraellion wrote:
scorchlikeshiswhiskey wrote:
Soraellion wrote:
If they apply to both you either fit them to both or you remove them from both. So on the Ferox that means less EHP or the loss of the TC or you start adding invuls to the Drake. Either way, we'll have a nice discussion on why it's ok for the Drake to have more EHP than the Ferox while you also think its weapons need to be buffed to be on par :)

Because long range fits typically rely on range as part of their tank? Maybe? Besides, if you're being shot with Heavies you really don't need a lot of tank. Cool
Nice distraction from an example that shows your were mistaken about application though.


You realise that he's purposely messed up his "proof" right? The ferox applies more dps than it can do because it's being helped by a painter it doesn't have.

Damn! You're right! You're so right! In a solo game like Eve, where in the universe would a pilot get the effects of a Target Painter they don't have fitted? Oh, woe is me for choosing the wrong side! /sarcasm
When an equally bonused, slotted and fitted comparison wasn't enough for you, because reasons(?), another example was provided. To which the only fault you have managed to cling to is that the Ferox might have someone providing a Target Painter. Maybe even the Drake, in which case this comparison shows that you would be better off with 2 Feroxs as opposed to a Drake/Ferox combo or 2 Drakes.
Try again.
Soraellion
#92 - 2015-01-08 23:32:17 UTC
scorchlikeshiswhiskey wrote:
Damn! You're right! You're so right! In a solo game like Eve, where in the universe would a pilot get the effects of a Target Painter they don't have fitted? Oh, woe is me for choosing the wrong side! /sarcasm
When an equally bonused, slotted and fitted comparison wasn't enough for you, because reasons(?), another example was provided. To which the only fault you have managed to cling to is that the Ferox might have someone providing a Target Painter. Maybe even the Drake, in which case this comparison shows that you would be better off with 2 Feroxs as opposed to a Drake/Ferox combo or 2 Drakes.
Try again.




Here's a tip: if you're going to talk about game mechanics and balance, it helps if you're capable of being a) correct and b) not biased.
Mario Putzo
#93 - 2015-01-08 23:35:14 UTC
Soraellion wrote:
scorchlikeshiswhiskey wrote:
Soraellion wrote:
If they apply to both you either fit them to both or you remove them from both. So on the Ferox that means less EHP or the loss of the TC or you start adding invuls to the Drake. Either way, we'll have a nice discussion on why it's ok for the Drake to have more EHP than the Ferox while you also think its weapons need to be buffed to be on par :)

Because long range fits typically rely on range as part of their tank? Maybe? Besides, if you're being shot with Heavies you really don't need a lot of tank. Cool
Nice distraction from an example that shows your were mistaken about application though.


You realise that he's purposely messed up his "proof" right? The ferox applies more dps than it can do because it's being helped by a painter it doesn't have.


Ok sorry.

Lets ignore the TP and Webs then since no one has them fit anymore because we live in special vacuum land where only I exist against unfitted Caracals representing PVE targets in a one on one environment.

So Rails are better from 10K-80K+, instead of 5K - 80K+

My bad guys sorry for misleading you all with 3rd party Webs and TPs, and making HMs look 5K worse than they actually are.
Soraellion
#94 - 2015-01-08 23:42:53 UTC
Mario Putzo wrote:
Ok sorry.

Lets ignore the TP and Webs then since no one has them fit anymore because we live in special vacuum land where only I exist against unfitted Caracals representing PVE targets in a one on one environment.

So Rails are better from 10K-80K+, instead of 5K - 80K+

My bad guys sorry for misleading you all with 3rd party Webs and TPs, and making HMs look 5K worse than they actually are.


So you don't only fabricate "proof" (and then defend it) but you also use hyperbole and just lies, showing bias. Kinda disqualifies one from any serious discussion, doesn't it. Pretty much done with that.
scorchlikeshiswhiskey
Totally Abstract
O X I D E
#95 - 2015-01-08 23:48:22 UTC
Soraellion wrote:
Mario Putzo wrote:
Ok sorry.

Lets ignore the TP and Webs then since no one has them fit anymore because we live in special vacuum land where only I exist against unfitted Caracals representing PVE targets in a one on one environment.

So Rails are better from 10K-80K+, instead of 5K - 80K+

My bad guys sorry for misleading you all with 3rd party Webs and TPs, and making HMs look 5K worse than they actually are.


So you don't only fabricate "proof" (and then defend it) but you also use hyperbole and just lies, showing bias. Kinda disqualifies one from any serious discussion, doesn't it. Pretty much done with that.

Troll post is trollerific.
Pretty much done with that.
Good job on the charts Mario, someone here can put 2 and 2 together without screaming bloody murder about where the plus sign came from and it's unfair. Roll
Mario Putzo
#96 - 2015-01-08 23:53:02 UTC  |  Edited by: Mario Putzo
scorchlikeshiswhiskey wrote:
Soraellion wrote:
Mario Putzo wrote:
Ok sorry.

Lets ignore the TP and Webs then since no one has them fit anymore because we live in special vacuum land where only I exist against unfitted Caracals representing PVE targets in a one on one environment.

So Rails are better from 10K-80K+, instead of 5K - 80K+

My bad guys sorry for misleading you all with 3rd party Webs and TPs, and making HMs look 5K worse than they actually are.


So you don't only fabricate "proof" (and then defend it) but you also use hyperbole and just lies, showing bias. Kinda disqualifies one from any serious discussion, doesn't it. Pretty much done with that.

Troll post is trollerific.
Pretty much done with that.
Good job on the charts Mario, someone here can put 2 and 2 together without screaming bloody murder about where the plus sign came from and it's unfair. Roll


Haha thanks. At least some folks are able to understand what I was trying to convey.

So here is a bare bones comparison between
HML Drake (CN Scourge) - Green
Rail Ferox (CN Antimatter)- Red
Beam Harby (IN Multi)- Dark Blue
Rail Brutix - (CN Antimatter)Yellow
Arty Cane - (RF EMP) Teal
HML Cyclone (CN Scourge) - Pink
HML Caracal (CN Scourge)- Brown

Bare bones fit is
All Hardpoints filled with Largest Sized LR Weapon
1 Tracking Computer for Turret Ships
2 Rigor 1 Flare for Missile Ships

Target is a bare bones Caracal with only an AB fit.

Without AB
http://imgur.com/XOGLdhj

With AB
http://imgur.com/P4pZvV2

Interestingly enough Arties seem to lose the most applied damage to the AB, losing nearly 15K of effective combat range with an average DPS loss of about half

The Harby has the most ressiliance to damage bleed, as well as the best mid range ammo (Standard)
The Brutix Damage % does not compete with Ferox Range %
Rails provide the least damage bleed over most ranges.
The Caracal ROF bonus allows it to Out damage the Drake at a longer range*
The Cyclone sucks with HMLs.

*Mind you this is bare bones, comparison and actually fitting the ships gives Drake a slight edge.

From this I can make 2 recommendations.

1) Arty needs a closer range ammo than EMP, or it needs to have slightly better overall tracking.
2) Missiles need to have their explosion velocity/radius numbers looked at.

OR

1) Beams need to have their peak Damage scaled back some.
2) Rails need to have their tracking reduced some.

As it stands IMHO (having looked at damage graphs now for like 5 hours). Here is how I would rank LR weapons overall.

1) Rails
2) Beams
3) Arty
4) Missiles.

Note that Arty only only moves up because its damage application can be improved by using low and mid slot modules, where as the Missile users in the comparison are all ready using ALL first party enhancements to application, and barely pulling out ahead.

Heavy Missiles need a tweak...Arty could probably use a tweak as well to line it up with the other turrets a bit more.
Soraellion
#97 - 2015-01-09 00:37:57 UTC
Yes, a biased graph.
Mario Putzo
#98 - 2015-01-09 00:54:35 UTC
Soraellion wrote:
Yes, a biased graph.

I don't think that word means what you think it means.
Mario Putzo
#99 - 2015-01-09 01:11:02 UTC  |  Edited by: Mario Putzo
Actually here is my favorite one though, Drakes vs AB Caracal

http://imgur.com/PG0ufzt

RED Rapid Light fit Drake
6x RLML II with Caldari Navy Scourge
2x Missile Fuel Rig
1x Missile Velocity Rig

Green HML fit Drake.
6x HML II Caldari Navy Scourge
2x Rigors
1x Flare

RAPID LULZ

Ya HMs don't need anything. Trolololo. Big smile
Caleb Seremshur
Bloodhorn
Patchwork Freelancers
#100 - 2015-01-09 02:02:29 UTC  |  Edited by: Caleb Seremshur
scorchlikeshiswhiskey wrote:
Not going to make a long quote that has to be scrolled past....
Caleb, you obviously put a lot of thought into that idea but I'm not sure how your version of missiles would be much different than the current artillery. My understanding is that you were referring to the MLRS (Multiple Launch Rocket System) and how it fires all at once which, IIRC, is not entirely correct. I believe the MLR systems are selectable, one can be launched or all can be launched, or somewhere in between. I do like the idea of having launchers that fire double, like dual AC's, but having launchers just fire everything and go into reload seems like a poor change to make unless you want to see gank Corax's replace gank Catalysts.

Actually... I'm not sure they would replace artillery gank fits entirely, a well-timed smartbomb would clear a lot of damage off the field since the missiles would still have their ridiculous flight times.


Let me pretext this response with a video primer.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=70yNAwUUsc0

And then two missile tutorials based on the same game.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=waC4DXncwxs
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1azBuiFIymc

Tell me how that missile gameplay is not better than the crap we get in EVE? For reference I think each LRM takes like 40 seconds to reload after every volley, Rise wanted to create tension, knowing you live or die by 1 shot instead of a dps blender is tension. Maybe EVE can't handle it and if that's true then it's very sad to me. There is a "charges per cycle" attribute on missile launchers Rise, consider investigating it sometime.

Also note the minimum ranges that longer range missiles possess. You cannot brawl or hope to win in a brawl against a target inside the minimum range unless you have specifically equipped the right weapon (in the case of EVE the correct ammo type).

I miss this game so much, only servers still active are in the UK and I am in Aus.