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missiles vs railguns
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Carnium IV
State War Academy
Caldari State
#1 - 2015-01-08 20:12:39 UTC
Hi,

im quite new to this game, i trained all skills that boost damage or fire rate of both missiles and rails system to lv 3, 4. Now im at a point where each skill takes a day more or less to upgrade so i have to decide for one. I play mostly pve at the moment, doing missions and nullsec ratting (my main income of isk). I dont have any trouble with missions but nullsec ratting is more chalenging but quite fun, and im having rly good time with it. I have two ships fitted currently:

-corax, 7 launchers, modul that boost damage and rate of fire, microwarp drive and shield repairer. Range 33km doing cca.75 dps and hit for 500-700 (dont know if this is relevant for pve)
-cormorant, 7 x 125 gauss (tried 150 and 75 also, think 125 gives best range/damage ration; 150 were also good but my power grid was too low to fit anything else almost), mwd 2x damage booster module and also shield repairer. With iron charge i have cca. 28km range and 45dps and with abtinatter charges i have cca. 9km range and 126dps.

Now i have good succes with both but soon realized rather than survavability the problem with nullsec ratting is dps. Now usualy there are 3 type pf rat spawns i encounter.

- 1big rat (500k isk) and 2 to 3 smaller ones. Both ships here are good with corax i just kite them all, with cormorant i pew pew smaller ones , change to antimatter go under the big rat guns and kill it. The first problem is if bi rat is worth 1mil of isk or more. Corax simly cannot kill it with 75dps, cormorant with 126 can.
- 2-3 medium rats (250-500k isk) and 2 -3 smaller ones. Here tables are turned, with corax again i simly kite them all while with cormorant i kite smaller ones , but 3 medium ones are trouble, canot get under guns they can track me not to mention while orbiting one the other two shoot me with no trouble. I can kill them from range but it take sforever, usualy i go in take damage, repair go to range repeat. Both way take some time, corax and missiles are better here.
-2 or more big rats (1 mil isk + ) some smaller ones. This is trouble , whole lot of isk and loot but cant take it :) corax does not have enough dps neither does cormorant to kite them, and cant go in close , same problem as previus spawn rat. Not to mention these guys can 1-2 shoot kill me.

So all that said, with corax i need more dps and with cormorant i need range (antimatter charge) or dps (iron charge). So i guess the right first question would be:

1. Which skills are faster to train, missiles damage, rate of fire or hybrid range and dps?
2. Im lookinf forward also, cruisers and battle cruisers wich of these weapons would be better with limited skills there. Limited skills i mean ill train them but will take some time i guess. I can afford to buy and equipd cruiser maybe even bcruiser now but i dont know how usefull that would be with my low skills and i have some isk but i cant rly buy turret for 30mil isk (just an example).
3. missile have delayed damage , turrets have further range (ok missiles can go to 200 km as far i i see but idk how usefull that is, missile would travel half a minute ), i do want to pvp sooner or later , when i get borred with ratting, range is in pvp limited im guessing by warp scrambler. Im just thinking out loud here any input about this small stuff would be good.

Ok thx for any answers, sry if wall of text :)
Memphis Baas
#2 - 2015-01-08 20:44:43 UTC  |  Edited by: Memphis Baas
3. No, range is not limited (well, the only limit is the game's limitation of 250 km). PVP is diverse enough: there are ships that can scram from extended ranges, and also you typically face a group rather than solo players, so in a group you can have several players scram you from close range while the main DPS snipes you from 120 km. There's also ewar; they can jam your targeting range or gun range/tracking.

Missiles are thought of as a PVE weapon because of their long travel time, but just like with guns, where you have a long range version (rails) and a short range version (blasters), each tier of missiles has long range and short range. If you're going solo, then YOU will be limited to scram range, so you'll probably want a close range ship, but your enemies will likely not be limited in this way.

Bottom line, figure out which ships you'd like to fly, and use the weapons that they have bonuses for.

2. Frigate and destroyer PVE is somewhat forgiving, but as you get to cruisers and beyond you'll need to have support skills (armor/shields, engineering, navigation, etc.) and increased weaponry skills (guns, missiles, drones, whatever your ship uses). The PVE becomes tougher and tougher; you may lose your ship if you jump into it without good support skills, and you should NEVER fly a ship that you don't have the money to replace right away (fully fitted). With the bigger ships, you're losing hundreds of millions of ISK when the ship explodes, so it's somewhat expected that you train up the skills to tank them and give them appropriate DPS.

PVP, if you're in a fleet, the size and composition of the fleet may make up for your lack of experience and trained skills. Solo, on the other hand, is a bit tougher. The fittings are different (maximum damage / maximum tank - not sustainable for long periods because you either win or die relatively fast).

1. I believe CCP has tried to make missiles and gunnery skills relatively equally hard to train. You have a progression of skills that lets you use bigger and bigger versions of the weapons, so you can go from frigate sized to cruiser to battleship and then capital ship, and you have weapon upgrades skills that make your guns (or your missiles) do more damage, shoot faster, track better, etc.
J'Poll
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#3 - 2015-01-08 21:19:21 UTC
Carnium IV wrote:


1. Which skills are faster to train, missiles damage, rate of fire or hybrid range and dps?
2. Im lookinf forward also, cruisers and battle cruisers wich of these weapons would be better with limited skills there. Limited skills i mean ill train them but will take some time i guess. I can afford to buy and equipd cruiser maybe even bcruiser now but i dont know how usefull that would be with my low skills and i have some isk but i cant rly buy turret for 30mil isk (just an example).
3. missile have delayed damage , turrets have further range (ok missiles can go to 200 km as far i i see but idk how usefull that is, missile would travel half a minute ), i do want to pvp sooner or later , when i get borred with ratting, range is in pvp limited im guessing by warp scrambler. Im just thinking out loud here any input about this small stuff would be good.

Ok thx for any answers, sry if wall of text :)


1. Doesn't matter that much. But gunnery support are preferred by many, as they affect all guns, not just 1 type. While missiles only affect missiles. A gunnery RoF skill affects Hybrids AND lasers AND projectiles.

2. Don't fly with lowest skills. A general rule of thumb is at minimum have them at 3 but aim for 4 and only for 5 if you need them for something or don't know what to skill.

What is better, it depends on the situation and who you fly with. In PvP there is NEVER an A is better then B answer...to many factors that can change the outcome.

3. No range is NEVER a limit. You can have sniping fleets, but they just need dedicated tackle.

As soon as you have tackle...anything can be used. So a pair of interceptors + long range sniping works perfectly...

Hell, with some bonuses, modules and boosting, you can have a disruptor reach out about 40+ km.

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Tsukino Stareine
Garoun Investment Bank
Gallente Federation
#4 - 2015-01-08 21:30:01 UTC
Carnium IV wrote:
Hi,

im quite new to this game, i trained all skills that boost damage or fire rate of both missiles and rails system to lv 3, 4. Now im at a point where each skill takes a day more or less to upgrade so i have to decide for one. I play mostly pve at the moment, doing missions and nullsec ratting (my main income of isk). I dont have any trouble with missions but nullsec ratting is more chalenging but quite fun, and im having rly good time with it. I have two ships fitted currently:

-corax, 7 launchers, modul that boost damage and rate of fire, microwarp drive and shield repairer. Range 33km doing cca.75 dps and hit for 500-700 (dont know if this is relevant for pve)
-cormorant, 7 x 125 gauss (tried 150 and 75 also, think 125 gives best range/damage ration; 150 were also good but my power grid was too low to fit anything else almost), mwd 2x damage booster module and also shield repairer. With iron charge i have cca. 28km range and 45dps and with abtinatter charges i have cca. 9km range and 126dps.

Now i have good succes with both but soon realized rather than survavability the problem with nullsec ratting is dps. Now usualy there are 3 type pf rat spawns i encounter.

- 1big rat (500k isk) and 2 to 3 smaller ones. Both ships here are good with corax i just kite them all, with cormorant i pew pew smaller ones , change to antimatter go under the big rat guns and kill it. The first problem is if bi rat is worth 1mil of isk or more. Corax simly cannot kill it with 75dps, cormorant with 126 can.
- 2-3 medium rats (250-500k isk) and 2 -3 smaller ones. Here tables are turned, with corax again i simly kite them all while with cormorant i kite smaller ones , but 3 medium ones are trouble, canot get under guns they can track me not to mention while orbiting one the other two shoot me with no trouble. I can kill them from range but it take sforever, usualy i go in take damage, repair go to range repeat. Both way take some time, corax and missiles are better here.
-2 or more big rats (1 mil isk + ) some smaller ones. This is trouble , whole lot of isk and loot but cant take it :) corax does not have enough dps neither does cormorant to kite them, and cant go in close , same problem as previus spawn rat. Not to mention these guys can 1-2 shoot kill me.

So all that said, with corax i need more dps and with cormorant i need range (antimatter charge) or dps (iron charge). So i guess the right first question would be:

1. Which skills are faster to train, missiles damage, rate of fire or hybrid range and dps?
2. Im lookinf forward also, cruisers and battle cruisers wich of these weapons would be better with limited skills there. Limited skills i mean ill train them but will take some time i guess. I can afford to buy and equipd cruiser maybe even bcruiser now but i dont know how usefull that would be with my low skills and i have some isk but i cant rly buy turret for 30mil isk (just an example).
3. missile have delayed damage , turrets have further range (ok missiles can go to 200 km as far i i see but idk how usefull that is, missile would travel half a minute ), i do want to pvp sooner or later , when i get borred with ratting, range is in pvp limited im guessing by warp scrambler. Im just thinking out loud here any input about this small stuff would be good.

Ok thx for any answers, sry if wall of text :)


1 big thing i've noticed is that you're using a MWD, this will increase the signature of your ship and make you far easier to hit.

Consider using an afterburner instead, you'll still be far faster than most rats and your signature will not be expanded and overall you will take even less damage.

Art of Explosions
Paranoid Loyd
#5 - 2015-01-08 21:37:22 UTC  |  Edited by: Paranoid Loyd
tl:dr, but i do know: the answer of late is always Rails

"There is only one authority in this game, and that my friend is violence. The supreme authority upon which all other authority is derived." ISD Max Trix

Fix the Prospect!
Yzen Danek
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#6 - 2015-01-08 22:14:48 UTC
If you're going to focus on PvE for a while, it's definitely worthwhile to get yourself into cruisers. You can get to level 3 cruisers and medium turrets in about the time it takes to level any one of those Gunnery support skills from 3 to 4 for not only a much bigger DPS increase, but a much bigger range increase from the bigger guns and a much more durable boat to boot.

A rail fit AB Moa, for example, will let you tear stuff up from max targeting range with Tungsten Ammo and shred Rat Battleships and BCs without taking any damage at all. Drop a mobile tractor unit at fight start, mop up, come back to scoop the tractor unit and head home.
ergherhdfgh
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#7 - 2015-01-09 20:50:18 UTC
doing null sec ratting in a destroyer would be challenging. My hats off to you for making it work. Definitely a cruiser would be better suited for this.

Missiles are more new player friendly because they train more linearly and take less game knowledge. Guns typically will do more theoretical damage but there are more factors that affect how that damage is applied. As a result guns train on more of a compounding or exponential level.

If you want to go the gun route I suggest reading up on eve tracking and gunnery. There are plenty of links in threads located on the first few pages of these new player Q&A this question gets asked again and again so do a little reading but basically if you go the gun route you'll want to train up tracking optimal and falloff as they will all affect your actual landed damage. So don't focus on paper dps alone with guns

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Moonlit Raid
Doomheim
#8 - 2015-01-10 18:40:00 UTC
Missiles are in some ways pve king thanks to their ability to choose 100% their damage type. Rails will have the advantage of being able to one shot small targets at range. the choice is yours really.

If brute force isn't working, you're just not using enough.

Please Note: Any advice given comes with the caveat that nothing will be suitable for every situation.
Chainsaw Plankton
FaDoyToy
#9 - 2015-01-10 18:57:40 UTC
Moonlit Raid wrote:
Missiles are in some ways pve king thanks to their ability to choose 100% their damage type. Rails will have the advantage of being able to one shot small targets at range. the choice is yours really.


many missile ships have a specific damage bonus, so 100% damage type choice isn't quite true. The raven used to be favored as it was pretty much the best lazy mode mission boat. and it actually worked pretty well vs nearly everything. since then everything has been nerfed/buffed, but the raven still maintains some of its reputation for whatever reason.

personally I like guns. you would have to pay me to get me in a missile boat. might be willing to try some light missiles for pvp

@ChainsawPlankto on twitter
Moonlit Raid
Doomheim
#10 - 2015-01-10 20:00:15 UTC
Chainsaw Plankton wrote:
Moonlit Raid wrote:
Missiles are in some ways pve king thanks to their ability to choose 100% their damage type. Rails will have the advantage of being able to one shot small targets at range. the choice is yours really.


many missile ships have a specific damage bonus, so 100% damage type choice isn't quite true. The raven used to be favored as it was pretty much the best lazy mode mission boat. and it actually worked pretty well vs nearly everything. since then everything has been nerfed/buffed, but the raven still maintains some of its reputation for whatever reason.

personally I like guns. you would have to pay me to get me in a missile boat. might be willing to try some light missiles for pvp

I'm actually a beam or blaster groupie. I don't really use missiles any more.

If brute force isn't working, you're just not using enough.

Please Note: Any advice given comes with the caveat that nothing will be suitable for every situation.