Player Features and Ideas Discussion

This.

Just to add a bit more context, most players will not be aware the current missile system was a bad compromise that arose out of the ashes of failure of the intended 'new' system back in 2004 (which got as far as the development server) - where missiles, particularly the bigger variants, would come out of the tubes at low velocity, with poor manoeuvrability, then accelerate up to speed. Reasons given at the time were basically "because of server"….

I still maintain something more interesting than the current system (which is stupid, with the explosion 'radius' always affecting damage, regardless of velocity….) could be achieved, for example by using the under-utilized 'agility' attribute.

Edit:

And here was that proposed 'new' system:

http://oldforums.eveonline.com/?a=topic&threadID=79439

Except I can cherry pick that variable because at the present it is the only one that matters in the discussion about why Missiles are lackluster in comparison to Turrets.

Webs impact both
TP's impact both
Both have Rigs
Both have Weapon Upgrade options

And then Turrets have TE's and TC's to boost their damage application, with Optimal Range or Tracking Speed.

Missiles do not have this option, and only serves to further keep them in check against other weapon types.

Hell Drones even get Omnis/

Turrets also get TDed, countering TE/TC. Turrets can do 0 damage in many situations because they're very easily countered. Missiles always apply at least some damage. Turrets will have to swap ammo, losing time, when attacking targets at difference ranges. Most turrets use cap. In some cases missiles are worse, in others they are better.

For every pro you list there's a con, for every con you list there's a pro and there's MANY ship and weapons types that you simply don't see in large fleet meta, I don't hear you say anything about those. Just because "the masses" in blob fleets don't use a specific weapon doesn't mean they're bad, missiles work just fine in other forms of PVP just as other weapon systems might suck there.

Missiles are non-effort, stupid-proof weapon systems that require no thought, no piloting, no real interaction, no cap, lack anti-missile specific EWAR, aren't damage type limited AND they work decently well. why should they on top of all those pros (which, are countered by a whole bunch of cons, paper dps being one of them) also content for top paper damage?

It's not just blobs that don't use them. We're primarily small gang up to fleets of 50 odd and we never seem them. Friend or foe.

In fact the last time I was hit with one was by an Orth pilot testing it when they released, before that.....uuummmm.....don't even remember. Maybe a 100mn tengu.

No because everyone knows the ship is crap and thus it has nothing to do with missiles as such. Why don't you use, say, the way more obvious Navy Caracal or would that be inconvenient for you? You REALLY have to stretch to mention the Nosprey instead of the Navy Caracal, so much so that it's actually hilarious.

@ OP.
Well the good old days with missile T3s alphaing stuff off field from afar...

Right but we aren't talking about a hierarchy of them. We are talking about why there is a huge difference between the damage application of missiles compared to other weapons.

I saw your video and I thought it was good in explaining the fundamentals, but was very narrow in scope of comparison. First and foremost the lack of comparison with AB use. Nor did you mention the relevance in a PVP context.

So here is an addendum I guess. Below is the fits I used and their stats.

http://imgur.com/i1eyO2C

HML Drake, Rail Ferox, AB Caracal.

Here is a dps chart without an AB
http://i.imgur.com/lC226VU.png

Here is a dps chart with an AB
http://i.imgur.com/u9Ntkfg.png

Here is a DPS chart Webbed and TPd
http://i.imgur.com/F9Dd1A5.png

Here is a DPS chart no Rigors/Flare no AB
http://i.imgur.com/0XyQbxQ.png

Here is DPS chart no Rigors/Flare with AB
http://i.imgur.com/rYNfJSp.png


So common theme Rail Ferox simply pounds the drake in terms of applied DPS against the same target under the same circumstance. From about 12K until 45K the drake can just not compete. Even after 65K where the drake no longer applies any damage the Rail Ferox is still capable of applying more of its DPS more of the time right out to nearly double where the drake stops.

Giving it more overall damage application, by a long shot.

The only range the drake is significantly better is inside 10K...unless the target is webbed.

Your video really sells short the application differences. Heck the typical engagement zone is 10-40km which just so happens to have Ferox territory written all over it against our little caracal friend here.

Missiles need less explosion radius and more explosion velocity.
Less Alpha Damage, higher rate of fire to keep same DPS
Less Flight Time, More Velocity (keep same range)

The fact that you absolutely must fit rigors/flares to a drake in order to hit an AB Caracal for more than 200DPS I think really says it all.

Edit
Playing with it even more using Caldari Navy Thorium beats the drake at every range above 15K, and thats not even as far as we can go! Tungsten is better than HMs from 25K out to 95K 30KM further than the drake can even engage!

Edit 2
If you add the Caracal into that graph the Drake does 38 more damage against a moving AB Caracal than a Caracal with Rigors/Flare. and the Caracal can only fire 30KM further than the Drake. Its like a 40% reduction in missile damage just by using an AB. Meanwhile the Ferox loses about 30% of potential damage, but still has 25% more DPS than the Drake does on average.

And that is just by using an AB.

Its really not even close, Heavy Missiles need a rework, all missiles do really.

I should be able to like this twice.

What do you mean you couldn't decipher my fits, it was the very first link I shared. Since I have no idea what fits you are using in your test I can only assume its the same from the video?.

Either way.

If you bothered at all to look at any of the links I posted you will see that in every circumstance the Rail Ferox has a wider range of damage application and applies a higher average than the drake.

The only time a Drake applies more damage than the Ferox (at any range the drake can hit) is inside 10K. Which is only true if you assume no webs and/or painter. If you assume webs/painter than this falls to inside 5K.

From 5K-80K the rail ferox applies more damage and more peak damage 100% of the time and never less damage than the Drake (unless we assume no cap in which case DPS is 0), and only needs 2 ammo types to switch between CN Antimatter, and CN Tungsten to do so.

If you took time at all to look at my links you would see this. It is clearly imbalanced in terms of applied damage. Which is why you lower its top end damage (alpha on missiles) reduce its cycle time (ROF on Turrets), and reduce explosion velocity and radius. (Doing the Missile Velocity/Fuel Tank is not an impactor on this and merely serves to reduce missiles on grid resulting in less server load.)

Again. The fact that you MUST fit Rigors and Flares to hit above 200DPS on an AB Caracal speaks for itself. Its the Explosion Velocity and Radius that absolutely need to be changed.


Also I am not sure what your link is representative of.

Yes but if they're used as projected effect then the Ferox also benefits from it, messing up the graph. Still, given that you have a painter and web, why aren't you accounting for them in your graphs? That's like fitting a tracking computer and then not running it.

This is your two fits but now with painter/web running and you can clearly see their impact. So while you have them fitted, why don't you account for them.