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Malcolm Khross
Doomheim
#21 - 2011-09-13 11:47:53 UTC  |  Edited by: Malcolm Khross
Zanziba'ar wrote:

I will not stand for your actions and then hiding behind them in YULAI as a religious motion, an accident, a NON sanctioned attack that resulted in the deaths of thousands of Matari and often Gallente people.


Correct me if I am wrong, but the Yulai Incident was an unsanctioned attack by the Matari Elder Tribe against CONCORD's main communication hub, which sparked what became known as the Elder Invasion against the Empire and resulted in the deaths of Matari and Amarr at the hands of the Elders before it was repelled by the Amarr, resulting in further deaths on the Minmatar side.

The Malkalen Catastrophe, which occurred nigh simultaneously with the Yulai Incident, involved a Nyx-class Supercarrier being rammed into an Ishukone station during peace delegations, resulting in the deaths of an entire Federation delegation, several Caldari representatives and "hundreds of thousands" of lives aboard the station of mixed ethnicity.

The involvement by the Amarr that you seem to pointing to would be Sarum's counter assult and the subsequent 24th Imperial Crusade declared against the Matari people after her coronation as Empress?

Avlynka,

Your wisdom and temperance are impressive lately, you continue to impress me. (For what that may be worth.)

~Malcolm Khross
Zanziba'ar
Wolf Brothers INC
United Neopian Federation
#22 - 2011-09-13 11:55:13 UTC
We fight for different reasons then Starfire.

I fight because I have lost family fighting the menace.

You clearly fight just because you believe you are protecting our people.

My raiding will have caused more of an impact on the empire NOT being able to launch a full scale attack because I have killed diplomats, Military personnel, Miners, Industrialists. all in the name of Matar to cripple there efforts, I understand that me alone will not win but that is why we call upon you, Stop "defending your homelands" We are powerful, Together we minmatarr can accomplish a great many things, To defend we must attack. Take back the systems that are rightfully ours, send the Amarrian people back home to there empress. No matter how much they resist us they cannot win, They will not win.

For too long have they ran slaves out of our systems and attacked our people and concord merely say "this was not sanctioned by the Amarr Empire" or "it didn't happen". Rise and fight. patrol our borders. stop EVERY Amarr ship coming through them. they declare all out war then we resist, They cannot beat the will of Matar.
  • Mulzvich "Zanziba'ar" Gorath
Zanziba'ar
Wolf Brothers INC
United Neopian Federation
#23 - 2011-09-13 11:58:41 UTC
Malcolm Khross wrote:
Zanziba'ar wrote:

I will not stand for your actions and then hiding behind them in YULAI as a religious motion, an accident, a NON sanctioned attack that resulted in the deaths of thousands of Matari and often Gallente people.


Correct me if I am wrong, but the Yulai Incident was an unsanctioned attack by the Matari Elder Tribe against CONCORD's main communication hub, which sparked what became known as the Elder Invasion against the Empire and resulted in the deaths of Matari and Amarr at the hands of the Elders before it was repelled by the Amarr, resulting in further deaths on the Minmatar side.

The Malkalen Catastrophe, which occurred nigh simultaneously with the Yulai Incident, involved a Nyx-class Supercarrier being rammed into an Ishukone station during peace delegations, resulting in the deaths of an entire Federation delegation, several Caldari representatives and "hundreds of thousands" of lives aboard the station of mixed ethnicity.

The involvement by the Amarr that you seem to pointing to would be Sarum's counter assult and the subsequent 24th Imperial Crusade declared against the Matari people after her coronation as Empress?

Avlynka,

Your wisdom and temperance are impressive lately, you continue to impress me. (For what that may be worth.)


What happened at Malkalen was an unfortunate incident. But from what I gathered and my knowledge is somewhat limited in gallente/caldari relations.. But the admiral was performing an action which he truly believed in. Even as a known appeaser he realised enough was enough. this is an honorable action and one that I respect most dearly
  • Mulzvich "Zanziba'ar" Gorath
Malcolm Khross
Doomheim
#24 - 2011-09-13 12:07:40 UTC  |  Edited by: Malcolm Khross
Zanziba'ar wrote:

What happened at Malkalen was an unfortunate incident. But from what I gathered and my knowledge is somewhat limited in gallente/caldari relations.. But the admiral was performing an action which he truly believed in. Even as a known appeaser he realised enough was enough. this is an honorable action and one that I respect most dearly


We have very different definitions of "honor" then. There is nothing honorable in killing thousands of non-militants by attacking a peace delegation. The delegation itself could have resulted in better relations between the Caldari and the Federation, which may have saved thousands more lives on top of the ones that would have been saved had the attack never occurred.

If this sort of behavior is what you consider honorable, then I think it reveals a great deal more about your character. What Avlynka is trying to tell you is that your blatant aggression against militants and non-militants alike is only going to serve to cause more hostilities, thus costing you more Matari lives.

You've made it clear, however, you desire to destroy the Amarr even if it costs you the lives of your kin. This is shameful, not honorable. Vengeance is a blade held without a handle and bitterness is the poison one man drinks expecting the other to die.

~Malcolm Khross
Zanziba'ar
Wolf Brothers INC
United Neopian Federation
#25 - 2011-09-13 12:19:18 UTC
Quote:
You've made it clear, however, you desire to destroy the Amarr even if it costs you the lives of your kin.


The majority of my kin died a long time ago. I am willing to destroy the Amarr even at the cost of my own life. Unlike the Amarrians my crew aren't forced to come with me, My high success rate sais they'll survive and they will get the pay and the pride of having served the Matari. Killing there millitants AND non-millitants Is not intended to create more hostility. It is designed to cause maximum disruption to the Amarr Empire. I no longer fly underneath the republic, infact there is propably a lengthy file on whom I now fly with, If I don't put my crew on the line then who is going to fight? The Ushra'khan? they only fight to stop Amarrian expansion out with Concords reach, and Ava is clearly too scared to fight.

If I wasn't spilling the blood someone else would be. Infact your lucky its me. None of my family had ever shown mercy quite like I


  • Mulzvich "Zanziba'ar" Gorath
Malcolm Khross
Doomheim
#26 - 2011-09-13 12:41:30 UTC
Your high success rate of piracy, yes. When you are free to choose the engagement, you will naturally have a higher success rate than someone who is flagged for aggression against an entire militia.

Someone like Avlynka.

However, I took the time to compare your battle record with hers, let's see what I found:

Your total: 103 successful engagements, 33 losses. That's a 68% success rate of engagements in high security space against select targets who likely do not have back up. I should also point out that you often fly with a wing of your fellow pirates and engage lone targets.

Avlynka's total: 363 successful engagements, 79 losses. That's an 89% success rate of engagements in low security space against militia targets who could have possible back up lurking around any gate. I should also point out that most of her engagements are solo or with a partner against solo or partnered opponents.


Furthermore, most of her engagements have been against Amarr in Republic or Empire systems. Most of your engagements have been in Caldari space or near prominent trade hubs and mining systems.

Your attempts to criticize a warrior of the Republic utterly reek of hypocrisy, impotence and failure.

Anything else you care to spout? I suggest you bring actual facts and intelligence next time.

~Malcolm Khross
Zanziba'ar
Wolf Brothers INC
United Neopian Federation
#27 - 2011-09-13 13:07:25 UTC
But the quality of my kills are somewhat higher am I not right in saying? baring in mind that Concord locked me down for a little while.

I have stopped many being able to supply there own corporations and so stopping them from gathering what they need to fight against the minmatarr, killing other capsuleers who are only there to fight with you and prevent you entering there space although it has an effect, It is minimal compared to my efforts.

after a few of my first months I was outlawed by the republic I did not have the time that Avlynka clearly had. But most will agree that my impact is much more settled. You will disagree with me and probably oppose me but after I return to the Republic and its militia, Amarrian secure space will no longer be safe.

You don't like me Malcom and you unkindly refer to me as a pirate which I assure you I am not. But I will return to the republic and when I do you will no longer have the opinion of me as a pirate but then. Oppose me and you may well no longer be flying at all.

How many of your wingmen and family have died fighting the Amarrian menace? then you wouldn't understand the sacrafice some of us make

  • Mulzvich "Zanziba'ar" Gorath
Malcolm Khross
Doomheim
#28 - 2011-09-13 13:17:03 UTC
Zanziba'ar wrote:
But the quality of my kills are somewhat higher am I not right in saying? baring in mind that Concord locked me down for a little while.

I have stopped many being able to supply there own corporations and so stopping them from gathering what they need to fight against the minmatarr, killing other capsuleers who are only there to fight with you and prevent you entering there space although it has an effect, It is minimal compared to my efforts.

after a few of my first months I was outlawed by the republic I did not have the time that Avlynka clearly had. But most will agree that my impact is much more settled. You will disagree with me and probably oppose me but after I return to the Republic and its militia, Amarrian secure space will no longer be safe.

You don't like me Malcom and you unkindly refer to me as a pirate which I assure you I am not. But I will return to the republic and when I do you will no longer have the opinion of me as a pirate but then. Oppose me and you may well no longer be flying at all.

How many of your wingmen and family have died fighting the Amarrian menace? then you wouldn't understand the sacrafice some of us make



The "quality" of your kills is based on perception, unless you're referring to ISK total of kill vs loss, in which case Avlynka has you beat in that category as well.

I've looked into the people you've "stopped from being able to supply their corporations" and most of them have absolutely nothing to do with the Republic, so please stop trying to justify your attacks with that line of reasoning.

It's not a matter of not liking you, it's a matter of defending a friend's honor and efforts to fight for what she believes in against your demeaning of her honor and efforts. And you are a pirate, your own kills demonstrate that. The "0rphanage" is well known for declaring war on small, non-militant corporations in high security space and attacking targets of opportunity. It may not be piracy as defined by CONCORD, but it's piracy nonetheless.

None of my wingmen or crew have died fighting against the Amarr nor do I foresee them doing so in the near future. That does not negate my ability to understand sacrifice for conviction and purpose. I understand it full well, it is, in fact, the reason I am aggressively opposing your slander against someone I hold in very high respect for those self-same sacrifices you profess to be making.

~Malcolm Khross
Lord Behemoth
Knights Templar.
Blood Raider Shipyards
#29 - 2011-09-13 13:18:12 UTC
I would just like to point out Zanziba'ar that you are one of the most hated Capsuleers in New Eden thanks to your time with your current corporation and your actions. Of-course he is not going to like you. especially since you probably make attempts at disrupting the corporation he is contracted to protect. You will be welcomed back to the battlefield Zanziba'ar.


your combat record may not be as good but you have not been on the battlefield quite as long.as soon as my work here is complete I will be returning to me estates and my corporation returning to the Militia.

Saying Zanziba'ar is a pirate is very much unfair. A terrorist in the eyes of your people maybe... But not a pirate.
Malcolm you are asking for trouble threatening an officer of The infamous capsuleer alliance "The 0rphanage" whom constantly cause problems for the empires and other capsuleers. You are a typical caldarian as you are clearly trying to start a hot headed argument you cant win.

I for one welcome the old A-VEX admiral back to battle.
Zanziba'ar
Wolf Brothers INC
United Neopian Federation
#30 - 2011-09-13 13:28:33 UTC
You are defending a friend whom I have not tried to offend, Merely comment on the little impact there actions make towards the Amarr. The 0rphanage does not declare war on smaller corporations. It is hired generally to declare war on the Major Alliances of the null security space. We as an entity are very important.

My time is coming to an end in the alliance however and it will soon be time for me to move on, I'm heading back as CEO of my old corporation with my very select pilots were we will once again fight for the republic.

I have to put up with the hate of other capsuleers every single day. Just because what I do is just, You clearly think otherwise, I would never engage the Amarrian Militia because of what it is like your friend does. I engage Amarrians for who they are. I don't have much of a liking for your kind either.

We will see each other in space some day. And I have no hate for telling you that only I will be leaving again the same way I came in
  • Mulzvich "Zanziba'ar" Gorath
Malcolm Khross
Doomheim
#31 - 2011-09-13 14:17:15 UTC  |  Edited by: Malcolm Khross
Zanziba'ar,

Do you not realize I am able to look at your entire combat history? Including which systems your engagements were in and how many people were involved?

I tend to try to avoid implicating an individual overmuch, but dishonesty is a lack of integrity and a lack of integrity is a lack of character. You claim that what you are doing is just, but I would ask "in whose eyes?"

You stated, and I quote:
"Zanziba'ar" wrote:

It is hired generally to declare war on the Major Alliances of the null security space. We as an entity are very important.


Now, let us examine your combat history:

Of your last twenty engagements, one was in nullsec territory. The rest? Jita, Rens, Harroule, Ivar.
Of your last forty engagements, three were in nullsec. The rest? Rens and Jita primarily.

I will admit that a few of the corporations and alliances you've engaged reside (or at least spend significant time) in nullsec, but you engage primarily at trade hubs, in high sec space and your targets are not limited to nullsec pilots and alliances. You have several combat engagements against unrelated pilots and, keep in mind, that my complaint against you was that you claimed you were assisting the Republic with your efforts - NONE of the pilots you've engaged has any opposition to the Republic based on their alliance and corporation.

I do not care that you feel what you are doing is just, I care that you are honest about what you are doing. Which you have not been, up until your very last post. Furthermore, you may not have "meant to insult" Avlynka, but you called her a coward and you spoke ill of her efforts to defend the Matari people. My issues with you are plain and I have been honest about them.

Let me conclude with this: When the time comes that you join your Matari brethren in the fight against the Amarr openly, then you may stand to criticize another on how they do it. You have already indicated that you will not engage the militia, you will instead "engage the Amarr for what they are," which I assume means you'll continue to try to attack trade lines and non-militants? I urge you to understand the merit in both forms of combat and the impact that both have. Insult meant or not, you did insult and I would encourage you not to do so again, you will very soon be fighting for the same cause in very different ways, both with merit and effect.

~Malcolm Khross
Zanziba'ar
Wolf Brothers INC
United Neopian Federation
#32 - 2011-09-13 14:29:30 UTC
You have crossed a line with your idiocy, No one Sais I engaged other Capsuleers as much did they?.

I did say that I prevent capsuleers from trading and making money, there is honesty there.

you misinterpate what I said then decide to read out a combat log as if you know what your on about.

No one said I was all in all honest. Infact i'm propably the furthest thing from but you can guarentee you will recieve a very negative impression from me and my pilots
Other than that,Many realise my efforts. such as the many Amarrian compounds i have destroyed. i never said anywere they were capsuleers involved in the engagement. So you sir need to read up on your facts and stop using third party devices to make judgements and stick to what concord lets you know.
  • Mulzvich "Zanziba'ar" Gorath
Malcolm Khross
Doomheim
#33 - 2011-09-13 14:55:09 UTC  |  Edited by: Malcolm Khross
Okay...so here we go again.

Allow me to copy to you your own words:

Zanziba'ar wrote:

Me, I am no scholar. I am a military man... I am not extremely intelligent but I know things that most don't. I know right from wrong. I know a liar as he stands there in his ship

I will not stand for your actions and then hiding behind them in YULAI as a religious motion, an accident, a NON sanctioned attack that resulted in the deaths of thousands of Matari and often Gallente people.

I fight because I have lost family fighting the menace.

My raiding will have caused more of an impact on the empire NOT being able to launch a full scale attack because I have killed diplomats, Military personnel, Miners, Industrialists. all in the name of Matar to cripple there efforts,

Killing there millitants AND non-millitants Is not intended to create more hostility. It is designed to cause maximum disruption to the Amarr Empire.....and Ava is clearly too scared to fight.

You are defending a friend whom I have not tried to offend,

I would never engage the Amarrian Militia because of what it is like your friend does. I engage Amarrians for who they are.


You know right from wrong, you know a liar when you see one. This sentiment automatically puts you on the moral high ground, you accuse others of being liars which implies that you are honest in opposition to them.

You completely misused all factual information regarding Yulai and attempted to paint the Empire black for things it did not have any part in. Stop it. The Empire can besmirch it's reputation quite well on its own, it doesn't need your help. Stick to the facts, don't blend them.

You fight whom because you lost family? This whole thread is about engaging the Amarr and fighting for the Matari - things you have clearly not done but keep claiming that you have (or will) and aggressively challenging anyone who doesn't do it exactly as you think they should.

Your "raiding" will have caused more of an impact because you have killed militant and non-militant personnel all in the name of crippling their efforts. Which I have already proven that your current actions have absolutely no relevance whatsoever to this claim.

Killing militants AND non-militants may not be intended to create more hostility, but it will. Which is precisely what Avlynka was trying to convey to you. You go on further to say that "cleary she is too scared to fight." This is an insult, a challenge to her honor and a proclamation that she is a coward. Deny that you meant to insult her all you want, but your words say otherwise and I've taken issue with them. That you cannot defend them with anything other than aggression, dismissal and violence is not a fault on my part.

What exactly do you mean by "Engage the Amarrians for who they are." You clearly state that you will not engage in the militia and demean the efforts of those who do.

Now, to explain what this entire conversation has been about, since it's clearly been missed, I will summarize:

  • You commented in a thread about rallying Matari to fight against the Amarr
  • You challenged known Matari warriors for having little to no effect because they fight the militia, not raid non-militants
  • You further went on to justify your actions by claiming you are disrupting those helping the Republic when your combat actions and history give absolutely zero credit to this claim
  • You get confrontational because I take issue with your demeaning of my friend's efforts and honor and further try to justify your actions within the 0rphange as somehow being "just" and "right" when your original claim was that you were helping the Republic


When your actions match your words and you are indeed assisting the Matari as you claim to be doing, then you have full reason to get upset when someone claims you are not. But to challenge the honesty of another individual, demean the efforts of those already fighting for the Matari and then try to justify your acts of piracy by claiming they are somehow helping the Matari is foolishness and dishonest.

That you are upset I called you on it is even more telling. Instead of getting angry with me, prove me wrong. Start letting your actions reflect your words, start fighting for the Matari, start actually focusing your efforts on your "supposed" enemy and then you can claim that what you are doing is "right" and "just" under the context of helping the Matari. The whole reason I brought your combat record into the discussion in the first place was to compare your words with your actions and weigh your merit from there, clearly it has worked.

Until then, sit down and be silent.

Oh, and since I'm on the topic:

Lord Behemoth wrote:

Very well wrote from the legitimate pirate over there.


Wait for it...

Lord Behemoth wrote:

Saying Zanziba'ar is a pirate is very much unfair.


What a pair you make.

~Malcolm Khross
Kalaratiri
Full Broadside
Deepwater Hooligans
#34 - 2011-09-13 15:29:19 UTC
Thgil Goldcore wrote:
War should never get in the way of being civil.


I quite agree. See you in space, and hopefully, the bar.

She's mad but she's magic, there's no lie in her fire.

This is possibly one of the worst threads in the history of these forums.  - CCP Falcon

I don't remember when last time you said something that wasn't either dumb or absurd. - Diana Kim
Caellach Marellus
Stormcrows
#35 - 2011-09-13 15:41:01 UTC
Zanziba'ar wrote:
You are defending a friend whom I have not tried to offend


Zanziba'ar wrote:
and Ava is clearly too scared to fight.


Odd way of not trying to offend someone.

Just sayin'

When your gut instincts tell you something is wrong, trust them. When your heart tells you something is right, ignore it, check with your brain first. Accept nothing, challenge everything.
Lyn Farel
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
Khimi Harar
#36 - 2011-09-13 16:18:02 UTC
Zanziba'ar wrote:
But Shalogorath does speak from the heart. Something many matari believe in is what Shalo performs.


Then they should speak with their minds instead of their hearts.

Zanziba'ar wrote:
I know right from wrong.


Right and wrong are notions so abstract and personnal that they will hardly help you to communicate successfully with others (that share different right and wrong values), especially if you hold for granted that your own values about right and wrong are the only ones that prevail.


Zanziba'ar wrote:
I know a liar as he stands there in his ship, From in his pod.


How do you do that ? Reading in his mind ?

Zanziba'ar wrote:

My raiding will have caused more of an impact on the empire NOT being able to launch a full scale attack because I have killed diplomats, Military personnel, Miners, Industrialists.


Petty things in comparison to the greater scheme. A lot of people can claim similar achievements, and this in both factions. In every faction.

Secondly, if you think that attacks and political stances are decided by leaders, then you are definitly a fool. What gives a governement (any governement) its power are not its diplomats and military leaders, but the very people that constitutes its roots. Without the people, a governement is nothing, be it a Republic or an Empire. And what you are precisely doing by your volatile claims and outbursts of anger is to give reasons for that Amarrian people to actually make the lauch of more of the attacks you refer to, a reality.
Shalogorath
Knights Templar.
Blood Raider Shipyards
#37 - 2011-09-13 16:49:17 UTC
I cant help but notice much hate on Zanziba'ar. Now you all think your being smart but having fought with him in Rens when he was Admiral of A-VEX I know that Zanziba'ar leads many. I don't know why if I'm honest but people just follow him. A-VEX's pilots have followed Zanzi for a long time now and the ones that didn't ended there licenses because they lost a leader they loved. Granted though Zanziba'ar, your clearly deliberately mis-interpreting facts in order to create your own "truth" and no doubt inspire hate for the Amarr Empire. And there is you telling me not to rally against them. You are a hypocrite no doubt and renown to be over ego-istic so this all just fits into place with what we expect of you. Aerogorath fought for the republic. Isn't that what you wanted? or have you changed into something rational?

Zanzi I do not doubt your ability to lead or your abilities in combat but I do believe now is not the time for words as you have clearly made somewhat of a mess, The evidence that you give of your raids on Amarrian structures and the likes are not present. obviously malcom. Concord do not record these activities for the public, Only activities with Capsuleer involvement are open to you, this would make the assumption that Minmatarr agents sent Zanziba'ar. so your own claims against him are fairly out.

Lord behemoth called Zanziba'ar a legitimate pirate. Had you been in Rens over the last few months you would have got were he was coming from.

Zanzi it is probably best you left this thread for now. Although I think we all know that your probably gonna assault Caldari thanks to Malcolm. Ava may seem prestigious to you but I think all warriors of Matar are something to be proud of.

anyway.

I have important things to do such as heading to a pub in Pator.

Malcolm Khross
Doomheim
#38 - 2011-09-13 17:15:43 UTC
I think perhaps I am being misunderstood, but I commend your level-headed and reasoned approach to discourse, Shalogorath.

I actually do not bear any hatred toward Zanziba'ar, my involvement here has simply been to defend the honor and efforts of someone I hold in high respect and to point out factual information regarding some the claims herein. I am well aware that CONCORD does not record the activities of a capsuleer from agent work and it is not agent work that I am referring to. My comments refer directly to Zanziba'ar's recorded activities and how they do not match his claims. Agent work is notable, to be sure, but if one is going to make a claim about their activities and use them as justification to criticize another, those activities need to be visible and reflect the words of the speaker. Attacks against non-militant targets in Empire space will cause turmoil, most certainly, it does not, however, negate the effectiveness of engaging capsuleer pilots and reducing their attempts to do the very same thing in the Republic.

My entire point throughout this discussion has been that Zanziba'ar has done no more for the people of Matar than Avlynka has and therefore his attempts to implicate her efforts as ineffective are unjustified. Her public combat records indicates a concentrated, focused and effective effort to stifle the efforts of capsuleer pilots who will do the same to the Republic's non-militant targets as Zanziba'ar proudly proclaims he is doing to the Amarr's. Both actions have merit in war, though I personally find one path far more honorable than the other, I never brought my own viewpoint into the discussion. Zanziba'ar's public combat records shows someone attacking targets of opportunity outside trade hubs and in mining areas regardless of their political affiliation in regards to the Republic and therefore it does not reflect his words. That has been my point consistently throughout this discussion. There is no malice or hatred in my words, simple fact based defense and counter arguments.

As for being called a "legitimate pirate," there is no such thing. The two words are mutually exclusive.

~Malcolm Khross
Ava Starfire
Khushakor Clan
#39 - 2011-09-13 23:01:33 UTC
Capitan Khross, thank you for standing up to defend my name. I am honored you would do so.

To those of you who would say that "I am too scared to fight", thanks.

I needed to laugh.

"There is no strength in numbers; have no such misconception." -Jayka Vofur, "Warfare in the North"
Ryven Krennel
Allied Exploration Front
Allied Exploration Front AXXF
#40 - 2011-09-14 01:03:41 UTC
I only just realized this discussion was serious. I thought I had stumbled onto some new Gallente comedy. I've been laughing through the whole thing. Somehow, finding out that my supposition was wrong just made it extremely tragic.

That being said: War is war is war. We're all fighting them. Piracy is piracy. Let's not call it something it's not. I'm going to have to agree with Malcolm on everything he said.

Anyway, that's my self-serving bit of whatever. I mostly just felt I should hop on this one before it went out of style. Now, people, quit the hate-mongering and let's get back to mindlessly killing each other like usual.

*Shakes head in frustration*

"Oh, good, we're surrounded.  That makes this easy."
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