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Crime & Punishment

 
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War on Gankers

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Concord Guy's Cousin
Doomheim
#301 - 2015-01-06 22:58:28 UTC  |  Edited by: Concord Guy's Cousin
Lucas Kell wrote:
What evidence is required to prove such a simple fact?
If it's a fact then there should be no shortage of evidence to prove it.

Quote:
Removing competition is beneficial. Everyone knows this. Someone else removing your competition for you is even better.
You know that asking for evidence is unlikely to yield results without considerable time and some information which is not publicly available. You're not asking because you need evidence, you're asking as a stall tactic.
No I'm asking you to substantiate your claim that your opinion is fact. That you're unwilling to do so speaks volumes.

Quote:
What I've stated is fact. And yes, we can go on forever, because you repeatedly claiming things which are utterly ridiculous is not going to make me doubt simple facts.
The only utterly ridiculous claim is from you, you're the person claiming that your opinion is fact.

Quote:
If you want to go ahead and try to prove that removing competition gives no benefit, by all means proceed.
I'm not attempting to pass off my opinion as fact, hence I have nothing to prove either way.

Quote:
I'll stick with facts which are common knowledge over opinions from some argumentative random.
If the facts are common knowledge, then you should have no problems with finding evidence to back up your claims with reference to your opinion being fact.

It's you that is claiming your opinion to be fact, the onus is on you to prove it. Quit stalling and get to it.

ISD LackOfFaith ~ "Your Catalyst was a hamster, and your Retriever smelt of elderberries"

NPC Forum Alt, because reasons.
Lucas Kell
Solitude Trading
S.N.O.T.
#302 - 2015-01-06 23:05:49 UTC
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
Lucas Kell wrote:
Again, that doesn't make it the only good thing.
It really does. Were it not for this, they wouldn't be playing the game at all, let alone deriving any benefit from anyone else's actions.
The real problem then is the invention of the PC. If that wasn't made, EVE wouldn;t exist, and neither would botters. Damn PCs.

Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
And? It's not like that means I'm going to stop killing each and every miner I can find, nor that doing such is not a 100% legitimate activity.
Never said it wasn't or that yuou had to stop anything. Claiming however that code is anti-botters is false, as their actions positively impact botters. If they want to continue doing that, fair enough, but I'll continue to point out how their existence benefits botters.

Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
Nevermind that, if you want to cry about what does or does not benefit botters, you probably shouldn't have campaigned so very hard in favor of ISCheaters.
ISBoxer isn't used for botting. It would be pointless to use a program like ISBoxer for botting. Arguably the removal of input broadcasting will reduce the number of non-RMT miners run by active players, and so that too is beneficial to botters. That's been reflected quit dramatically in the mineral prices.

The Indecisive Noob - EVE fan blog.

Wholesale Trading - The new bulk trading mailing list.
Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
#303 - 2015-01-06 23:10:21 UTC
Lucas Kell wrote:
The real problem then is the invention of the PC. If that wasn't made, EVE wouldn;t exist, and neither would botters. Damn PCs.


Massive over exaggeration on your part does not make my basic point any less completely true.


Quote:
Claiming however that code is anti-botters is false, as their actions positively impact botters. If they want to continue doing that, fair enough, but I'll continue to point out how their existence benefits botters.


And according to all the hoops you just jumped through, literally everything benefits botters. This is of course because the game's economy is interconnected to the degree that it is.

Being allowed to exist benefits botters. Literally everything comes back to CCP permitting them to exist in such large numbers.

"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."

One of ours, ten of theirs.

Best Meltdown Ever.
Lucas Kell
Solitude Trading
S.N.O.T.
#304 - 2015-01-06 23:11:21 UTC
Concord Guy's Cousin wrote:
If it's a fact then there should be no shortage of evidence to prove it.
I'm sure there is, but I'm not jumping through hoops for someone like yourself. If you want to keep denying it, go right ahead. I'll be right here pointing out the same well known fact.

Concord Guy's Cousin wrote:
No I'm asking you to substantiate your claim that your opinion is fact. That you're unwilling to do so speaks volumes.
Oh I see! So now because I refuse to jump through your hoops, I'm miraculously disproving a fact which everyone knows is a fact. Try harder.

Concord Guy's Cousin wrote:
The only utterly ridiculous claim is from you, you're the person claiming that your opinion is fact.
Actually, I'm claiming a fact is fact. Maybe you missed that part.

Concord Guy's Cousin wrote:
I'm not attempting to pass off my opinion as fact, hence I have nothing to prove either way.
No, you're trying to claim a well known fact is not a fact at all, and failing.

Concord Guy's Cousin wrote:
If the facts are common knowledge, then you should have no problems with finding evidence to back up your claims with reference to your opinion being fact.

It's you that is claiming your opinion to be fact, the onus is on you to prove it. Quit stalling and get to it.
Again, I'm not going to jump through hoops to satisfy you. Anyone sane reading this knows that it's a fact. Removal of your competition is beneficial. You can continue to jump up and down, stamp your feet, scream until you are blue in the face that it's just an opinion, but that won't change a damn thing.

The Indecisive Noob - EVE fan blog.

Wholesale Trading - The new bulk trading mailing list.
Renegade Heart
Doomheim
#305 - 2015-01-06 23:13:51 UTC
In my opinion, all miners benefit from mass ganking across high sec. The suicide attacks help to reduce the flow of minerals, resulting in a higher isk/hour for the smarter miners that don't get ganked. This makes mining more lucrative.

Without ganking, less carebears would quit EvE due to having their venture ganked, and miners would multiply like a virus, throughout high sec. The mineral supply would spiral out of control, and prices would crash.

If things got really bad, it might mean that you would have to mine twice as long to pay for your plex!
Lady Areola Fappington
#306 - 2015-01-06 23:15:14 UTC
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:

That said, an argument could of course be made that the simplicity of mining is the root cause of it being the most botted activity in the game. Time to add lootspew, if you ask me. There's just about no way to bot that activity.



You know, I'm likely going to go to Eve Hell for this, but....I like the way Elite: Dangerous does mining.

You end up having to sacrifice quite a bit to dedicate yourself to mining, and it's an active process. Knock chunks off asteroids, catch the chunk, and process it. All with assorted ne'erdowells and bad people gunning you.


And get this, they don't even have an omnipotent police force! You can be in secure civilized space, get aggressed and popped while mining, and if the pirate is sneaky enough, he can get back into a station, pay off his bounty, and be on his merry way. Course, if that station manages to get a scan on the sneaky pirate...well, popski!

7.2 CAN I AVOID PVP COMPLETELY? No; there are no systems or locations in New Eden where PvP may be completely avoided. --Eve New Player Guide
Lucas Kell
Solitude Trading
S.N.O.T.
#307 - 2015-01-06 23:15:44 UTC
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
Massive over exaggeration on your part does not make my basic point any less completely true.
It's exactly the same thing. You're claiming that bots existing is the root cause of them gaining a benefit from their competition being removed. I'm claiming that PCs existing is the root cause of bots existing. Exactly the same thing.

Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
And according to all the hoops you just jumped through, literally everything benefits botters. This is of course because the game's economy is interconnected to the degree that it is.

Being allowed to exist benefits botters. Literally everything comes back to CCP permitting them to exist in such large numbers.
Not everything does. If every active player started mining like crazy, the prices would drop drastically making it a lot more difficult to make isk through botting.

Again, I'm not arguing that CCP don't let too many of them exist, and I'm not arguing that's not a problem, I'm simply stating that it's not the ONLY problem. I'm guessing you're just doing your usual "let's derail this conversation" however, so at this point I'm done with discussing this part of it. Whichever way you spin it, codes actions are beneficial to botters.

The Indecisive Noob - EVE fan blog.

Wholesale Trading - The new bulk trading mailing list.
Concord Guy's Cousin
Doomheim
#308 - 2015-01-06 23:15:55 UTC  |  Edited by: Concord Guy's Cousin
Lucas Kell wrote:
More circular reasoning


In other words you are unable to prove your claim that your opinion is actually a fact, but are too stubborn to admit it.

Opinion: You're a troll.
Fact: Your opinion isn't a fact.

ISD LackOfFaith ~ "Your Catalyst was a hamster, and your Retriever smelt of elderberries"

NPC Forum Alt, because reasons.
Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
#309 - 2015-01-06 23:21:49 UTC
Lucas Kell wrote:
It's exactly the same thing. You're claiming that bots existing is the root cause of them gaining a benefit from their competition being removed. I'm claiming that PCs existing is the root cause of bots existing. Exactly the same thing.


No, it is not. My statement is complete truth in the context of this game.

Your statement is an enormous exaggeration that has nothing to do with the game, and is merely you trying to derail the discussion away from the truth of my statement.

And it's really obvious, what's more.


Quote:
Whichever way you spin it, codes actions are beneficial to botters.


Not in any proportion to not being banned, no. Nor in any proportion to anything anyone else does that effects the economy.

You're merely trying to stick a negative label on something you don't like to discredit it. You're ludicrously, hilariously pro-carebear for whatever reason, you defend their errant behavior at every turn (including their blatant EULA violations en masse), and you dislike CODE intensely.

All of this crap you've been spewing for the last two pages is just you attempting to discredit them. Nothing more.

"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."

One of ours, ten of theirs.

Best Meltdown Ever.
Lucas Kell
Solitude Trading
S.N.O.T.
#310 - 2015-01-06 23:22:14 UTC
Concord Guy's Cousin wrote:
Lucas Kell wrote:
More circular reasoning


In other words you are unable to prove your claim that your opinion is actually a fact, but are too stubborn to admit it.

Opinion: You're a troll.
Fact: Your opinion isn't a fact.
Erm, no.

Fact: Ganking non-bot miners is beneficial to botters.

You want proof for a commonly known fact, because you know that whatever proof fetched will take a huge amount of effort to gather and would need further proof to validate the proof, ad infinitum. The truth is that you can't dispute such a commonly known fact as removal of competition being beneficial, so you are going to try every possible fallacy you can to try to make out it's not the case.

And though all that it will still remain a fact, and anyone with an ounce of sense will know that. Whether you like it or not.

The Indecisive Noob - EVE fan blog.

Wholesale Trading - The new bulk trading mailing list.
Market McSelling Alt
Doomheim
#311 - 2015-01-06 23:23:44 UTC
Concord Guy's Cousin wrote:
Lucas Kell wrote:
More circular reasoning


In other words you are unable to prove your claim that your opinion is actually a fact, but are too stubborn to admit it.

Opinion: You're a troll.
Fact: Your opinion isn't a fact.



Again... the only troll here is you.

Less Materials, higher price for like kind demand.

AND if you gank a procurer, you are INCREASING demand for materials because of the lost miner ship AND the gank vessel.

So Bots win twice, demand for minerals increases AND their competition just got eliminated albeit temporarily.

This really isn't debatable, its fact. It is math.

CCP Quant: Of all those who logon in Eve, 1.5% do Incursions, 13.8% PVP and 19.2% run Missions while 22.4% mine.

40.7% Join a fleet. The idea that Eve is a PVP game is false, the social fabric is in Missions and Mining.
Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
#312 - 2015-01-06 23:24:50 UTC
Okay, I'm calling the mods. This is absurd.

"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."

One of ours, ten of theirs.

Best Meltdown Ever.
admiral root
Red Galaxy
#313 - 2015-01-06 23:26:22 UTC
I'm starting to think that Lucas is a Veers alt.

No, your rights end in optimal+2*falloff
Concord Guy's Cousin
Doomheim
#314 - 2015-01-06 23:27:38 UTC  |  Edited by: Concord Guy's Cousin
On second thoughts.
Lucas Kell wrote:
I'm sure there is, but I'm not jumping through hoops for someone like yourself. If you want to keep denying it, go right ahead. I'll be right here pointing out the same well known fact.
Where's the evidence, for it to be fact it has to be proven, if it's a well known fact then you should be able to easily prove it.

Quote:
Oh I see! So now because I refuse to jump through your hoops, I'm miraculously disproving a fact which everyone knows is a fact. Try harder.[/quote[ If it was a fact that everybody, which includes myself, knows there'd be no dissent about it Roll

Quote:
The only utterly ridiculous claim is from you, you're the person claiming that your opinion is fact.
Actually, I'm claiming a fact is fact. Maybe you missed that part.
No, you're claiming that your opinion is fact, that's the whole damn point.

Quote:
No, you're trying to claim a well known fact is not a fact at all, and failing.
No, you're claiming that your opinion is a fact, which it isn't.

Quote:
Again, I'm not going to jump through hoops to satisfy you. Anyone sane reading this knows that it's a fact. Removal of your competition is beneficial. You can continue to jump up and down, stamp your feet, scream until you are blue in the face that it's just an opinion, but that won't change a damn thing.
Won't or can't?

You too can jump up and down, scream until you're blue in the face etc, it won't alter the fact that what you're claiming to be fact is actually just your opinion.

ISD LackOfFaith ~ "Your Catalyst was a hamster, and your Retriever smelt of elderberries"

NPC Forum Alt, because reasons.
Lucas Kell
Solitude Trading
S.N.O.T.
#315 - 2015-01-06 23:29:32 UTC
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
You're merely trying to stick a negative label on something you don't like to discredit it. You're ludicrously, hilariously pro-carebear for whatever reason, you defend their errant behavior at every turn (including their blatant EULA violations en masse), and you dislike CODE intensely.

All of this crap you've been spewing for the last two pages is just you attempting to discredit them. Nothing more.
No, I'm not.. I'm pointing out the massive flaw in the claimed objectives of code. If they really cared about stopping botters, they'd re-evaluate their methods so that they actually targeted botters. The fact that they don't is what discredits them. They are a bunch of griefers, looking for tears from inexperienced players without risking too much of their stuff, nothing more. If code actually admitted that all they are there for is to troll, harvest tears and humiliate people, I'd have a fraction more respect for them for actually telling the truth.

And it's funny how it's always the same faces leaping in with the same trolling every time someone points out the type of players code really are. I get it, you love code. You've probably got a picture of James printed out and you fap to it nightly, we get it, we really do. why don't you just say that instead of going through all the same same bullcrap arguments every single time.

The Indecisive Noob - EVE fan blog.

Wholesale Trading - The new bulk trading mailing list.
Concord Guy's Cousin
Doomheim
#316 - 2015-01-06 23:30:39 UTC
Market McSelling Alt wrote:
Concord Guy's Cousin wrote:
Lucas Kell wrote:
More circular reasoning


In other words you are unable to prove your claim that your opinion is actually a fact, but are too stubborn to admit it.

Opinion: You're a troll.
Fact: Your opinion isn't a fact.



Again... the only troll here is you.
Stating my opinion isn't trolling, it is stating my opinion.

Quote:
Less Materials, higher price for like kind demand.

AND if you gank a procurer, you are INCREASING demand for materials because of the lost miner ship AND the gank vessel.
I never said otherwise. My problem is with Lucas presenting his opinion as fact.

Quote:
So Bots win twice, demand for minerals increases AND their competition just got eliminated albeit temporarily.

This really isn't debatable, its fact. It is math.
That only works if there is a shortage of minerals, if anything the contrary is true, there is a glut of minerals, some of which is down to bots.

ISD LackOfFaith ~ "Your Catalyst was a hamster, and your Retriever smelt of elderberries"

NPC Forum Alt, because reasons.
Lucas Kell
Solitude Trading
S.N.O.T.
#317 - 2015-01-06 23:30:46 UTC
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
Okay, I'm calling the mods. This is absurd.
I don't think there's a forum rule that states I'm not allowed to say things you disagree with. Nice to see you are conceding defeat though and trying to get the thread closed.

The Indecisive Noob - EVE fan blog.

Wholesale Trading - The new bulk trading mailing list.
Lucas Kell
Solitude Trading
S.N.O.T.
#318 - 2015-01-06 23:31:42 UTC
Concord Guy's Cousin wrote:
No, you're claiming that your opinion is a fact, which it isn't.
Actually, it really is.

The Indecisive Noob - EVE fan blog.

Wholesale Trading - The new bulk trading mailing list.
admiral root
Red Galaxy
#319 - 2015-01-06 23:32:00 UTC
Lucas Kell wrote:
They are a bunch of griefers


Liar.

No, your rights end in optimal+2*falloff
Market McSelling Alt
Doomheim
#320 - 2015-01-06 23:32:34 UTC
Concord Guy's Cousin wrote:
Market McSelling Alt wrote:


Quote:
Less Materials, higher price for like kind demand.

AND if you gank a procurer, you are INCREASING demand for materials because of the lost miner ship AND the gank vessel.
I never said otherwise. My problem is with Lucas presenting his opinion as fact.

[quote]So Bots win twice, demand for minerals increases AND their competition just got eliminated albeit temporarily.

This really isn't debatable, its fact. It is math.
That only works if there is a shortage of minerals, if anything the contrary is true, there is a glut of minerals, some of which is down to bots.



So where is your evidence that there is a glut of minerals? You are now just pulling economic assumptions from your rear. And if you continue to gank miners there wouldn't be a glut for long even if there was one to begin with.

CCP Quant: Of all those who logon in Eve, 1.5% do Incursions, 13.8% PVP and 19.2% run Missions while 22.4% mine.

40.7% Join a fleet. The idea that Eve is a PVP game is false, the social fabric is in Missions and Mining.