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Ishtar: a different approach...
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Corraidhin Farsaidh
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#1 - 2015-01-06 16:48:07 UTC
I've seen the numerous 'NERF ISHTAR!' threads and don't necessarily agree with them. However they did get me thinking.

How about this.

Drop the bandwidth to 50 Mb, this allows for a full flight of small and mediums and two heavy or sentries.
Add gilalike bonus whereby heavies and sentries get a 100% EHP and DPS bonus.

This would cut raw dps output by 20% but in return the ishtar pilot has much better utility from their drone bay. they can carry more ready to use drones or more variety allowing them a better chance of applying racial specific damage.

This would have the bonus effect of reducing server load when heavies or sentries are in use.

Whilst the ishtar pilot gets better utility from the drones they can also lose 50% dps if one is destroyed.

This could be a workable balance if (and only if) the ishtar really was deemed OP.
afkalt
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#2 - 2015-01-06 16:49:42 UTC
They just need killed with fire at this point. I expect that to happen late 2017.


Serious response: Makes it much harder to clear field with bombs, that's not cool.
Mario Putzo
#3 - 2015-01-06 16:51:43 UTC
Its not the Ishtar. Its the drones.

Fix drones (namely sentries) and you fix the Ishtar.

Its not a fluke that there has been nothing but drone based doctrines for over a year.
FT Diomedes
The Graduates
#4 - 2015-01-06 16:53:29 UTC
This would work very well.

CCP should add more NPC 0.0 space to open it up and liven things up: the Stepping Stones project.

Harvey James
The Sengoku Legacy
#5 - 2015-01-06 18:42:03 UTC
its versatility is its main power .. too go from sniper to brawler in a few seconds is very powerful and unique too drone ships.
any attempts too increase its versatility would make it even more powerful ..
the bonuses gila has is OP adding it too the ishtar would be absurd.

fixes for the ishtar

- reduce dronebay too 325
- reduce sentry and heavy drone damage bonuses
- remove drone HP bonuses

T3's need to be versatile so no rigs are necessary ... they should not have OP dps and tank

ABC's should be T2, remove drone assist, separate HAM's and Torps range, -3 HS for droneboats

Nerf web strength, Make the blaster Eagle worth using
afkalt
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#6 - 2015-01-06 18:52:20 UTC
I'm actually a bigger fan of it losing the drone control range bonus and some cpu so it has to trade damage mods for fitting mods if it wants to enjoy today's ranges. Bringing the range up at the expense of DPS is how it should work.
Altirius Saldiaro
Doomheim
#7 - 2015-01-06 18:53:08 UTC  |  Edited by: Altirius Saldiaro
Allow EWAR hitting a ship to affect the drones.

Sensor Damp an Ishtar, result is Drones Target Range and Scan Resolution get affected.
ECM an Ishtar, result is the drones cannot lock targets.
Tracking Disrupt an Ishtar, its drones tracking gets disrupted.
Petrified
Old and Petrified Syndication
#8 - 2015-01-06 20:38:06 UTC
Altirius Saldiaro wrote:
Allow EWAR hitting a ship to affect the drones.

Sensor Damp an Ishtar, result is Drones Target Range and Scan Resolution get affected.
ECM an Ishtar, result is the drones cannot lock targets.
Tracking Disrupt an Ishtar, its drones tracking gets disrupted.

Of course, people will then complain that they have no counter to being jammed out. But...
It would be better if sensor dampening modules not only affected the range a ship can target out to, but also the range a ship can deploy it's drones to. Regular ECM still causing aggro is just fine.

Cloaking is the closest thing to a "Pause Game" button one can get while in space.

Support better localization for the Japanese Community.
Barrogh Habalu
Imperial Shipment
Amarr Empire
#9 - 2015-01-06 21:35:26 UTC  |  Edited by: Barrogh Habalu
Altirius Saldiaro wrote:
Sensor Damp an Ishtar, result is Drones Target Range and Scan Resolution get affected..

I'm not sure if drones have those.
Limiting what drones can attack to what you lock and keep locked is probably what you're trying to achieve, I think.

Future of T3 cruisers - multi-tool they aspired to be instead of sledgehammer they have become
Corraidhin Farsaidh
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#10 - 2015-01-06 22:07:53 UTC
Barrogh Habalu wrote:
Altirius Saldiaro wrote:
Sensor Damp an Ishtar, result is Drones Target Range and Scan Resolution get affected..

I'm not sure if drones have those.
Limiting what drones can attack to what you lock and keep locked is probably what you're trying to achieve, I think.


As I understand it drones are the same as any other ship with full stats. eWar works fine on them but you have to target them individually.

In another way this may help to balane out the ishtars power in that only 2 drones out means less to jam. I do however take the point that the super drone idea could mae the ship OP. Another option is to make the bandwidth 75 Mb and the bonuses balanced to make them the same as 4 drones. This spreads the drone strength and makes it less difficult for bombers to clear a mass fleet field.

I'm glad people are providing options for a change :)
Rroff
Antagonistic Tendencies
#11 - 2015-01-06 22:33:03 UTC  |  Edited by: Rroff
As much as I hate the Ishtar I'm not a fan of nerfing drones or its drone capabilities into the ground. Though does seem odd that it has significant tracking bonuses on "battleship" class drones (I don't really see it quite like that) on top of being able to field them in the first place. (I'm ok with it fielding 5x heavy drones but any bonuses should not help it apply damage "out of class" with them).

I think as much as anything the problem is the other HACs are mostly just so underwhelming - for instance when the Ishtar is doing 4x the dps of a vagabond at any real range right off the bat before any other advantages it tends to kill off people even exploring other options.
Sabriz Adoudel
Move along there is nothing here
#12 - 2015-01-06 22:36:43 UTC
All I think is needed is a decrease in sentry drone effective tracking. They track better than other battleship sized weapons - the Garde II is a medium range weapons system and has almost the inherent tracking of the short range Neutron Blaster Cannon.

The Ishtar with mobile drones is a powerful but balanced ship.

I support the New Order and CODE. alliance. www.minerbumping.com
Harvey James
The Sengoku Legacy
#13 - 2015-01-06 22:52:20 UTC
Rroff wrote:
As much as I hate the Ishtar I'm not a fan of nerfing drones or its drone capabilities into the ground. Though does seem odd that it has significant tracking bonuses on "battleship" class drones (I don't really see it quite like that) on top of being able to field them in the first place. (I'm ok with it fielding 5x heavy drones but any bonuses should not help it apply damage "out of class" with them).

I think as much as anything the problem is the other HACs are mostly just so underwhelming - for instance when the Ishtar is doing 4x the dps of a vagabond at any real range right off the bat before any other advantages it tends to kill off people even exploring other options.


yes the vagabond needs a stronger brawling focus too help give it a useful role , the cynabal outclasses it in the kiting role amongst the other strong kiting cruisers we have now like Nomen, cerberus, ishtar etc..
rise already gave it the shield boost bonus but needs too go all the way by trading some speed for more HP, fittings and dps.

T3's need to be versatile so no rigs are necessary ... they should not have OP dps and tank

ABC's should be T2, remove drone assist, separate HAM's and Torps range, -3 HS for droneboats

Nerf web strength, Make the blaster Eagle worth using
Donnachadh
United Allegiance of Undesirables
#14 - 2015-01-07 02:54:13 UTC
Nerf this, change that, eliminate something else why all this crap when the answer to the Ishtar "problem" is really extremely easy.
So what is this magic change that I speak of, well glad you all asked, eliminate the "aggressive" mode of operation. So what does this change.

First it would limit or eliminate the ability to automatically "assist" another ship meaning that the Ishtar would have to stay in the battle making it easier to deal with it and the drones.

Since the Ishtar pilot would need to have target lock to be able to command drones to attack the Ishtar and it's drones are far more vulnerable to EWAR than they currently are.

There are many others but I think this is enough to give the general idea of the changes to the PvP side of the game. And on the PvE side these changes would have very minimal affect since most drones based PvE pilots probably rarely use the aggressive or assist modes.
Sirran The Lunatic
Pandemic Horde High Sec Division
#15 - 2015-01-07 03:29:16 UTC
Corraidhin Farsaidh wrote:
....Drop the bandwidth to 50 Mb,....

...Add gilalike bonus....



TLDR: "make the ishtar a gila."

also turn all Nyxs into Exequrors while ccp is at it.
Corraidhin Farsaidh
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#16 - 2015-01-07 10:04:32 UTC
Sirran The Lunatic wrote:
Corraidhin Farsaidh wrote:
....Drop the bandwidth to 50 Mb,....

...Add gilalike bonus....



TLDR: "make the ishtar a gila."

also turn all Nyxs into Exequrors while ccp is at it.



Actually I don't want to make the ishtar a gila. I love the gila but think that it should remain distinct from the ishtar. I was thinking that the same approach could be applied to the ishtar as a different option to the usual 'nerf it' cries (which I don't think is required just to be clear). This would trade some raw dps for increased utility but with fewer drones on the field the ishtar pilot would be at greater risk of having half his/hers/its dps cut by half with each drone that dies.
afkalt
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#17 - 2015-01-07 11:13:00 UTC
Yes, but they're MUCH harder to bomb clear (one of the only available mechanisms to currently force a draw) AND unless you shrink the bay as well, they have many more replacements.
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#18 - 2015-01-07 11:22:42 UTC  |  Edited by: baltec1
The ship itself isn't the problem, Its the sentries. If you nerf the ishtar then we will just swap to the domi.
afkalt
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#19 - 2015-01-07 11:33:51 UTC
Domi has more trade offs against the hull though. I'm far less worried fighting domis than ishtars. Domis take more damage, move slower, have lower control ranges, much harder times separating themselves from the drones so you can easier avoid being pulled into sentry optimal, easier to tackle etc etc.

Very powerful, certainly....but its a BS blob, it will be - and it's not as crazy hard to deal with as the ishtars currently are.
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#20 - 2015-01-07 11:41:02 UTC
afkalt wrote:
Domi has more trade offs against the hull though. I'm far less worried fighting domis than ishtars. Domis take more damage, move slower, have lower control ranges, much harder times separating themselves from the drones so you can easier avoid being pulled into sentry optimal, easier to tackle etc etc.

Very powerful, certainly....but its a BS blob, it will be - and it's not as crazy hard to deal with as the ishtars currently are.


Believe me, if ishtars get the boot the next tin of angry beans to be opened will be over the domination of domi fleet. This is before we get onto the sentry carrier swarms. It all stems down to that one drone type, nerfing sentries does a lot more good and is faster than nerfing several hulls.
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