Intergalactic Summit

Pieter,

While your argument is logically sound, it simply doesn't make sense in the context of contemporary political and social norms. Can you really not see that?

There's a thought experiment I recall from my college days that I can't quite put my finger on the name of, here - The basic idea, though, was that there's man who commits a theft, and, in the process of trying to escape, trips over a train track at an unlucky moment and gets all his limbs sliced off. Obviously he's aprehended and brought to court since it's not hard to catch a man with no legs, but his defense attorney makes the unusual arguement that since he has been both rendered incapable of not only ever commiting the same crime, but also any sort of meaningful labour of community service to effectively repent from it, he should be released simply on the basis that there's no profit in holding him. Even successful rehabilitation would be pointless, as he's lost all ability to interface with society for both and ill. So, is he prosecuted?

The answer (which I'm sure you're already certain of based on your law enforcement background) is yes, despite it making no logical sense when picked at. For the most part due to the notions of "justice" (/vengeance, being an unkind word for the same thing) and "fairness" that have permeated every level of human society since we first figured out how to steal rocks from eachother, or use them to bash heads open. It's a deeply carnal desire, to see people who do wrong, be punished, even when it benefits no one, or even harms you, to do it.

And it why you have got - And will likely continue to get - Such a negative response to your corporations actions despite everything you've said being true. Because in most peoples eyes (probably including the State authorities), the rogues gallery presently under your wing shouldn't be entitled to the chance you have given them. They haven't paid for the crimes they've commited, the innocent people they have killed or enabled the killing of. They do not deserve to simply step back into polite society without paying their due, and especially not without repentence. They deserve to be arrested and excecuted, and if these can't be done, at the very least shunned. But by associating with them instead, you are making the statement of, "You don't need to be punished for what you've done".

Which is but one small step away from, "You haven't done anything wrong at all", And that, in most peoples eyes, is damning for you.

Now, I didn't miss the end of your arguement there; I know you're thinking, "But this kind of attitude can't be applied to something as outside conventional human society as a Capsuleer", And in many senses I agree with you, though I would say it's possible to make Capsuleers suffer for their actions conventionally, or atleast neutralize them, despite it being more trouble then it's really worth. Regardless, you have taken a pragmatic path with largely positive results.

But, frankly, if you expect to defeat countless millenia of human social values with something like pragmatism, you're going to fail, no matter what the context. The Empires can get away with treating Capsuleers the way they do because they are a monolithic bloc dealing with another monolithic bloc. But you are not a monolithic bloc. You are a small corporation immediately and directly socially accountable for your every employment decision. And you may be unpleasantly surprised by who, and to what degree, they alienate you from.

Of course, all of this is ignoring an entirely seperate arguement I could be making, which is that you're really only looking at all of this in the context of short term gain, which falls apart a bit if you think about it hard. For example, if a Federal pilot signed up for your corporation while loudly publically declaring, "I'm going to use the training I get in this organization to kill as many State civilians as possible when I leave in a year!", I would imagine he would be swiftly shown the door.

Yet, this is essentially what most of the Nation loyalists have already said - They've just said it more politely, and with less bluntness.

Just to reiterate, I'm really not attempting to pass any sort of judgement. I'm just sort of baffled by how confounded you seem by peoples responses.

When I was speaking with Lieutenant Kernher this morning, Tuulinen, I expressed worry that this event would spawn the usual, thoroughly circular exchanges that we've seen in the past involving PYRE and its issues with the Sansha. I am, at this stage, unsurprised by what's happened.

Let me touch on a few points.

In the first place, your wife and CEO, Desiderya Tuulinen, arrived at the site of Nauplius's tower with an interceptor, and a Sansha pilot in a stealth bomber. When the Sansha's stealth bomber first targeted mine, I bounced and cloaked to avoid combat. Lt. Kernher, who had organized the destruction of the installation after PYRE demured, then requested that your wife not engage anyone in the group. Your wife then misread Kernher's request as a request not to shoot the tower, and remained silent when Kernher corrected her. After some ten minutes of remaining cloaked, with your wife at a tactical and Jasmin Soulscream cloaked or elsewhere, I incorrectly assumed that your wife was just there to observe, and got on to the business of assisting our ally in destroying Nauplius's facility. The rest is a matter of record. Clearly, this is Tuulinen's 'life choice,' to support an ally in destroying Nauplius's infrastructure; I very nearly held a gun to his wife's head to force her to engage me.

In other words, Pieter, as much as you are sick over the senseless loss of Ishukone lives, your wife very clearly was hunting for me. My mistake was in thinking she'd listen to an ally and your friend, or that she'd not interfere with an operation against a mutual enemy.

In the second place, Mr. Price, I-RED has been set -10 by PYRE for, what, a year and a half, now? And while you'd love to use diplomatic sleight of hand to indicate that we initiated this, the first step was PYRE's military coordination with Nation elements, and POW exchanges with TSF. When confronted by this, your old management naturally played the very same cards that PYRE continues to play. Acrimony followed, and Gesakaarin's love of adversarial action resulted in mutual negative standings. I-RED had actually unilaterally reset PYRE to neutral following our relocation to Black Rise, and I had in fact been in negotiation with Tuulinen to use him as a spokesperson for a line of Drink Starsi advertisements when PYRE began recruiting Nation supporters wholesale. We then repeated the cycle.

To summarize the second point, the standings are effectively mutual, and in fact the initial cause can be placed at the feet of PYRE. I doubt you can find a way to claim that PYRE's continual collaboration with Sansha is at others' hands.

Lastly, Tuulinen, you liken the presence of TSF pilots in PYRE to a penal squadron; you say that they're restrained, muzzled, and that this is an improvement over the alternative. I have to ask: what is it that they gain? Capsuleers are free agents. These Sansha wouldn't be muzzled willingly without something to gain from this. I see no wringing of hands from them, no change of heart, no regret over what crimes they've committed. They continue to wear the uniforms, as we both can very well see. So: what do they gain? And what good is a few weeks', a few months' respite from their depredations? Surely, you've muzzled them for however long they feel like being muzzled, in exchange for-- whatever it is they gain.

You cloak this behind others' moral failings, and complain about others using honor and integrity to cover for their misdeeds-- even as you fly alongside Nation supporters, and make excuses for your wife's downing of a State-aligned craft.

With apologies, Tuulinen, you're starting to sound the hypocrite.

TL;DR
Someone set someone to -10 and got shot by him.


This is a direct consequence of the latest diplomatic exchange that is a little older than a week now, started on the welcome iniative of both sides in order to get back to a status where both entities wouldn't engage each other. Once it reached I-RED leadership it was immediately rebuked and returned with requests that are by all means unreasonable.
So nor is it indeed surprising but neither it is a pity. You got what you insisted on.

Let's not forget the topic of this thread. If you want to a place to vent your feelings we can make a PY-RE vanity thread where you can do this.

I am pleased the overlying matter of the tower and its inhabitants has been seen to in a timely and considerate manner, my thanks to those involved in both the initial attack and the follow up smash-and-grab.

Right, never mind the parties involved have already talked before you had a chance to respond on this to white-wash what you did. Never mind shooting at one of your members before going after the tower according to PIE members. But, what can you expect from a bunch of people who allow Sansha and the like in their ranks with open arms. No better than common pirates; just paid a little more.

Honestly, I just expect you lot to be laughed out of the cluster as soon as Amarr begin to lose their 'tiers' in Faction war; once the money stops the people will fight over scraps or leave for their next free meal.

Further more, instead of addressing the issue or even better yet stopping like a normal person with common sense you come onto the IGS and feed people with stupid statements and misdirection. Its a good thing you are a decent pilot and never fly alone, or I fear you would just be lost in the crowd and forgotten in history.

I am confused by this. Could you restructure this? I am not sure whom you believe we shot if you believe that Desiderya took a shot at one of our own?

Kind of you to place your recognition on public record, of our place as a State loyal organisation.

Perhaps now that this first hurdle is conquered, we can move on past your insistence that Pyre Falcon conform to your, oh so very high, standards.

Wait wait wait, you ask for martial forces from people all over the New Eden, several of which are actively at war with you and not merely -5, then when a -5 (that is quite demonstrably going up against an enemy, no threat and nominally a damn closer ally to an ostensibly Caldari outfit) shows up you shoot it.

I'd make some sort of snark here but frankly you're just fulfilling everyone's expectations here and proving everyone right in not trusting anything coming from that direction.

So, basicly, Naups wins this round on account of causing drama.

We are actually spectacularly bad at making isk. We tried to run the 24th's missions. Twice. It went... well, it went.