Crime & Punishment

Heya,

Im mostly the pvp sort, never really mined or did boring stuff like that. Recently got back to the game and figured I would do some passive money making and mine a bit while I read up on changes in the game. A couple of days into this roid thing I see an orca in an ice belt get blown to bits by 6 destroyers. Im like, WTF. Then in dawns on me...why would someone even get an orca or any kind of expensive defenseless ship for mining or whatever if that kind of thing can happen. I looked up the km on that orca death and saw that less than 20 million worth of destroyers took out in 0.7 sec space, in under 15 seconds, a close to 1 billion ship.

While looking up the km i ran across countless km of hundreds upon hundreds of km of dead mining barges, 100-250 M a piece, killed by 2 mil destroyers. This kind of thing seems to have taken on epidemic proportions, it seems entire corporations exist to do exactly this kind of think, for no other reason except because they can.

While this is fine, and people can do whatever they want, it seems that the capacity for destruction is virtually limitless in high sec space. For miners, there is absolutely nothing a miner can do to prevent from getting ganked or solo killed. I noticed that barge HP has been beefed up but its not marginally enough.

That orca thing though just shows how broken the system is. Why would I even bother getting an Orca and fly around in high sec with it when it can be so easily killed with little or no consequence for the killers...actually forget consequence...so little COST, virtually none.

Concord was built as a deterrent and punisher not a preventer of crime. There have to be some kind of deterent to prevent this sort of thing. Im all for killing auto-piloting industrials or some such things, but miners are different. They have no choice but to sit there and mine and basically hope nobody wants to kill them just because they can.

Now the major problem is that there are no consequences or costs really for doing what these suiciders are doing. Im not judging their motivation im judging the game balance which basically permits them to do this on an unlimited scale with little or no real consequences. You have a trade ratio of 1:100 of loss vs kill, and security status loss...please...i never really worried about that. Big expensive ships like exhumers and industrial capital ships are a significant effort for a lot of players to buy. Its pretty wrong to have them completely unable to survive against an even nearly incompetent gank force or individual for more than 10 seconds....its not wrong is pretty proposterous.

I want to see some potential for meaningfull loss to people able to inflict huge damage on others at no risk. Basically, to take down decent fitted hulk 0.5 , I want to see people needing to spend at least 50-60 million on a ship or multiple ships - not 3 million. To take down an Orca, i want to see people needing to spend at least 150-200 million on ships at once. While these ships are technically defenseless, they need to have the buffer to withstand significant dps so that huge cost of having it is justified. Basically, it comes down to numbers since you cannot buy a 3 ships that do 10,000 dps together in high sec. So actually, the number of people required to take down a hulk, in less than 15 seconds, using the standard catalyst, should be around 10-15 people and about 30 for an orca.

Anyway, I think the system is broken and should be on the next major change list for CCP.

Lol. Also go check out that op skiff. Like more ehp than battleships yet same yield bro. Seems legit...

Also lol again

Umm yes. More EHP than battleships, but no offensive ability. More EHP than a battleship doesnt make it better than one or more useful for its own purpose. Its a different ship, diff purpose, diff fitting, diff everything, EHP has no meaning really if you cant use it to affect others.

Also, I think you are not understanding the term "capital ship".

Wtf YOU said you feel barges need more HP buff cuz it wasnt enough. You said miners just sit all defensely waitin to die... and wtf about capital ship?? Lmao skiff is the tank-centered exhumer bro. And with bonuses it actually yields the same.

Clearly you never heard of a skiff if you think its A CAPITAL SHIP.
Proof you know nothing and should shut up about this topic amd stick to RvB topics.

So i said get in a skiff.....

I dont think you understand

- ISK Tanking is not intended to be a thing
- Solo players being invulnerable to groups of players is not intended to be a thing
- Barges are borderline invulnerable when flown correctly
- EHP is no substitute for competent flying, as is demonstrated on a daily basis
- Delicious bait

- The Code always wins.

OP, some things to consider.
The ten to twenty seconds of violence you witness is the endgame of the gank. By the time the destroyers land on grid the battle has already been fought, unless the targets have a dirty trick up their sleeve to play. The scanning down of the barges, the pilot providing the warp in, the spike in local, the maneuvering of the gankers... are all going on before the actual gank occurs.

The defensive capabilities of the target(s) are dependent not only on it's EHP, but also on the alertness and paranoia of the pilots in question. Scan probes on D-Scan or a nearby pilot acting oddly, such as snuggling up next to your ship, are both tells that warn that a gank is likely to happen soon. Local spiking, especially with flashy red pilots is also a pretty sure sign.

Being that it's a suicide operation offensive systems are going to do little good. You can't think of it in brawl terms, it's not a slugfest. The objective of the gankers is to eliminate the target before CONCORD does it's thing. The objective of the miner/hauler/orca pilot is to survive long enough for CONCORD to do it's thing, not blow up the enemy ships. The ideal defense for the target is to simply not be there when the killsquad arrives.

Certain targets, such as the procurer or skiff are unattractive to gankers because they can be tanked to the point where it's simply easier to target something else instead of them.

ISK value is not a valid consideration when it comes to what should or should not be able to destroy a target. I know of others who have, and have even myself downed targets worth 100x the value of what was being used against them.

And to recap, situational awareness goes a long ways to not being popped in high sec. It is the single most potent tool an industry pilot has in their arsenal. The next most potent would of course be allies, as a team counters another team much more effectively than a single player.

Edit: I used too many words and other folks used them too while I was writing. I will not recant.

If it took only 6 destroyers to take down an Orca before Concord dropped the doughnuts (20ish seconds in a 0.5) then those destroyers cost significantly more than 2M a pop, as they need to have been pumping out in excess of 500 DPS each which means that they were T2 fit. In all probability the Orca was completely untanked (bare hull is 60k+ EHP) and the pilot was AFK.

The last 2 are entirely the responsibility of the Orca pilot.

with only the slightest of EFT warrioring I came up with 2 orca fits, one has 66k ehp, the other 416k ehp. I would assume the dead orca pilot didn't have all lv5 skills so I believe the 6 catalyst gank is possible, just requires a blissfully unaware orca pilot.

Biggest carebear cry post of the week award goes to you. Now shut up and go fit some actual tank to your ships.

So ... pretty much all of them then


@ Mag's -- Falcon's Fatality

(edit -- yeah, yeah totally wrong game ... but I couldn't come up with something snarky & eve-sounding)