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what to fly
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Thor Mena
Hastati Forge
#1 - 2015-01-03 11:40:57 UTC
okay so im new to eve. a buddy of mine was saying since i love to kill other people so much that i should do pvp and thus here is my quesiton


vengeance or retribution?? explain the pro and cons of both please as i am only like 3 days old
Gregor Parud
Imperial Academy
#2 - 2015-01-03 11:54:40 UTC
Neither, here's why:

- don't just automatically aim for T2/faction/bling
- neither is particularly good for pvp, they're very niche with very limited options
- there's tons of different forms of pvp and they all have their own "rules", play styles, good and bad ships & tactics. There is no overall "pvp" and thus no overall "good pvp ship".


So in order to give you any constructive help you will first have to define what type of pvp you're looking for but honestly; the answer will almost never be "Vengeance" or "Retribution".
Tsukino Stareine
Garoun Investment Bank
Gallente Federation
#3 - 2015-01-03 16:02:48 UTC
fly which one you think is more cool and adapt your playstyle around it.

Alternatively, do lots of pvp in t1 frigates, figure out what shortcomings each of the t2s cover and see which one is most appropriate.

Art of Explosions
Alaric Faelen
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#4 - 2015-01-03 16:36:07 UTC  |  Edited by: Alaric Faelen
Fly cheap and easily replaced things until you are familiar with Eve mechanics. Most battles are won or lost before ever achieving a lock- simply by using game mechanics to one's favor.

Both ships you mention are Assault Frigs- just beefier versions of the T1 combat frigs. They are not only more expensive by orders of magnitude, but remember that if you are spending a bunch on a hull- it doesn't make sense to skimp on fittings. So that if you can't ALSO afford/fit higher end modules (at least meta 4 if not T2 or faction), you are basically wasting the increased potential of the ship. One of the sure signs of an ALOD is an expensive hull festooned with bargain basement meta modules.

The Retri and Veng use two different weapon systems, and each take some investment of time to properly skill, so look forward at this point and think about what other ships you want to fly, and determine whether investing in missiles or guns (or even drones) is the path you want initially. Eventually you can train up all of the options- but early on you should invest in one at a time and spend as much training as possible on core skills that will affect every ship you undock (such as the Engineering and Nav trees).

Assault frigs see fairly limited use in null sec fleets. Sometimes used as heavy tackle, or sometimes a snowflake role per FC request- but in general they are fairly lackluster. By far more common are Interceptors with the ability to evade enemies, ignore bubbles, and tackle at long range.
fauckasf afasdaf
Imperial Shipment
Amarr Empire
#5 - 2015-01-03 19:33:10 UTC  |  Edited by: fauckasf afasdaf
Both the retribution and vengeance are tighter than a prom night virgin so make sure you have weapon upgrades v advanced weapon upgrades 4, and cpu & power grid management to V as well as level V cap recharge rate.
Retribution
Pros
- Does higher damage and can be easily fit to achieve 10k ehp with a small AAR or fit to reach about 200 dps.
- Scorch laser EM damage is great against shield ships, Conflagration is great against anything bigger than a cruiser and imperial navy frequency has pretty good tracking with the bonuses.
-For solo work involving bubbles retributions are great with an afterburner.
-Different ways to fly.
Cons
-The retribution absolutely NEEDS T2 lasers to be fully effective.
-No third mid slot really sucks
-tracking drones can be harder
-without a Nos capacitor can be hard to manage

Vengeance
Pros
-Get an extra mid slot and built in adaptive nano plating with perfect skills.
-It's capacitor is much stronger than the retributions
-stronger survivability
-Faction rockets are great with meta 4 guns.
-Stronger active tank
- SHREKS drones
- selectable consistent damage (lower capacitor cost on rockets)
- larger cargo hold (bubbles and mobile depots)
Cons
-15km max range with rockets.
-Very few ships use rockets
-susceptible to kiters
-smaller HP pool

Both ships are rather slow and you need to be cautious and engage fights carefully
With the Retribution most people fly it as either a tankier punisher or a slower imperial navy slicer.
The vengeance basically always uses rockets in small gang.
For small gang work you will want a local rep it helps a lot when there is no logi in armor fleets you may be able to get away with buffer tank.
You also get a 5.5 au warp which is lower than interceptors but much faster than anything bigger than a frigate allowing you to catch cruisers easily.
Interceptors are immune to bubbles but depending on what your fighting a retribution or vengeance can fight off 3 inties alone.
You in the retribution when fighting things with blasters or autocannon you can ggenerally kite them a bit until they "catch" you to make up for lower dps.
RavenPaine
RaVeN Alliance
#6 - 2015-01-03 20:25:55 UTC
All good points here, and from many different perspectives.

I liked a Vengeance better, because of the third mid-slot and missile range, helps kite easier and hit better for noob pilots. Great for fighting blaster fitted ships.

Alaric mentioned it: Think to the future for weapon choice. The earlier you can focus skills, the faster you can master them.

Others mentioned this also, but I'll re-phrase: All PvP ships are going to die at some point. You can't 'buy' a win by stepping up so early in your career. Your skillings (trained skills AND piloting experience) just won't match the hull, won't do it justice. Fly some cheaper hulls and get used to losing a few of them.

I also agree with, 'fly whatever you want or think is cool'. It's your game, play it how YOU like, for the most part. You'll change your mind along the way (as we all do) but it's part of the learning curve.
Kharaxus
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#7 - 2015-01-03 20:58:59 UTC
Thor Mena wrote:
okay so im new to eve. a buddy of mine was saying since i love to kill other people so much that i should do pvp and thus here is my quesiton


vengeance or retribution?? explain the pro and cons of both please as i am only like 3 days old


Ask the question in EVE New Citizens Q&A and re-phrase the question so it doesn't get removed.

Eve is big. Eve is very very big. And dangerous. And big.

In 3 months you might know how to fit ships. I'm still learning after 6 years.
Paranoid Loyd
#8 - 2015-01-03 21:05:38 UTC
Relevant

"There is only one authority in this game, and that my friend is violence. The supreme authority upon which all other authority is derived." ISD Max Trix

Fix the Prospect!
Stapaina
State War Academy
Caldari State
#9 - 2015-01-03 22:03:52 UTC
Go for Ceptors first (crow or stiletto), Harpy, Caracal, Proteus / Legion. But a lot is going to depend on corp / alliance you are going to join.
fauckasf afasdaf
Imperial Shipment
Amarr Empire
#10 - 2015-01-03 22:56:06 UTC
What do you want to do with them? Lows small gang nullsec? Also don't use either of them as heavy tackle unless your getting isk out the wazoo as its a dangerous job
Kharaxus
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#11 - 2015-01-03 23:26:32 UTC
Thor Mena wrote:
vengeance or retribution?? explain the pro and cons of both please as i am only like 3 days old


I remember back in the old days when people would buy 100 Rifters (or build) and then go kill them - therefore "creating content".

Go kill 100 Punishers.
Chainsaw Plankton
FaDoyToy
#12 - 2015-01-04 05:35:24 UTC
fly a few of the t1 frigs see how it goes, and then I'd probably be interested in trying a navy slicer. since amarr is at t4 in FW right now they are selling for about 9mil each, and most of the popular fits are pretty cheap, can probably fly 2 slicers for every 1 assault frig.

sounds to me like the tormenter is one of the better amarr t1 frigs. might be worth flying that instead of the punisher

@ChainsawPlankto on twitter
fauckasf afasdaf
Imperial Shipment
Amarr Empire
#13 - 2015-01-04 07:50:47 UTC
Beam tormentors have 3 mid slots to the punisher 2 allowing for better kit fits I believe
Gregor Parud
Imperial Academy
#14 - 2015-01-04 09:00:27 UTC
They have massive cap/fitting issues to make up for their 2 light drones.
Thor Mena
Hastati Forge
#15 - 2015-01-04 09:14:37 UTC
well im only going to fly amarr. any suggestions for pvp?
fauckasf afasdaf
Imperial Shipment
Amarr Empire
#16 - 2015-01-04 09:48:51 UTC
Imperial navy slicer with T2 lasers and amarr frigate V us ice Scorch and a nano fit are a great way to learn manual piloting.
Executioners amd punisher both work well in small gangs. How many allies do you expect to fly with and what kind of jobs will you be doing? Are you going to gate camp in nullsec with bubbles? Maybe am Ab fit retribution with a scrambler? Are you expecting to have to be the one getting tackle? If so without camping bubbles you will most likely need an MWD.
Gregor Parud
Imperial Academy
#17 - 2015-01-04 11:35:28 UTC  |  Edited by: Gregor Parud
Executioner is quite good, much cheaper and less scary than Slicers. If you want to figure out how a Retribution would work then you can go for a Punisher as well but just realise that being sluggish generally means you die (it's also why I wouldn't advocate AFs in general; too sluggish).

Tormentor CAN be nice but it's one of those ships that tries to do two things at once meaning it has to be kinda mediocre at both, it just won't work well on low SP. If you're looking for a funky solo frigate then you might have a look at the Sentinel but the same thing applies; don't just rush for bling stuff until you actually have a clue and have the SP to make it happen.

Whichever you choose you'll lose dozens of them at alarming rates so you might as well choose cheap and cheerful. I'd opt for either the kiting Executioner or the brawling Punisher, both will give you a good idea of the pros and cons of laser ships and their respective tactics. Just note that IF you choose to use pulse lasers you MUST have T2 ones, to be able to use Scorch crystals. Beams can be T1/meta.
Ralph King-Griffin
New Eden Tech Support
#18 - 2015-01-05 11:35:51 UTC
Thor Mena wrote:
well im only going to fly amarr. any suggestions for pvp?


Yeah, don't just fly amarr.

You're cutting yourself off from 3/4 of the frigates in the game and are likely going to be frustrated because of it.

I was.

Murderers of Negotiable Motivations

=]|[=
Maeltstome
Ten Thousand Days
#19 - 2015-01-06 14:29:10 UTC
I made this post a while back. Hopefully some of it helps; it's aimed at brand new players such as yourself.

https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=4786621

Justin Zaine
#20 - 2015-01-08 08:30:35 UTC
1. Don't fly AF's. Primarily because they're slow and less than optimal for frig vs frig PVP, but also because you're a new player and should not be jumping into one at this point in time. If you're trying to set a mid-long term goal that's cool, but for now i'd have my sights set on T1 frig piloting if I were you.

2. I'm gonna play devil's advocate here and tell you NOT to cross train. Sure, you're limiting yourself to less frigates than you would have access to if you did cross train, but Amarr have a good lineup of ships and if you spend your time skilling into those and learning to fly them, you'll be happy you spent the time doing so rather than splitting your skills all over the place. Frigs are more balanced these days than they ever have been, and Amarr has a lot of good ships in general, not just in the frig lineup.

3. If you're looking to get into frigate PVP and want to fly Amarr, you can't do much better than a Slicer. Seriously, its one of the best frigates in the game right now. A kitey frig with damage projection out to 25km with Scorch, there are few things that can touch it if you fly it right. A guy named Chessur -- A very experienced frig pilot -- flies them to great effect. I'm actually surprised he hasn't commented here yet, but I think that he would also recommend the Slicer if he were here. Maybe not at your beginning level, but as a goal to work towards. Regardless, if he does make an appearance here, listen to him.

4. My suggestion to you would be to join Amarr FW and make isk while learning to PVP. It's very possible to plex your account with FW LP and in the meantime you can exchange T1 Amarr frigs for Slicers at the LP store. Win win?

He will win who knows when to fight and when not to fight.

He will win who, prepared himself, waits to take the enemy unprepared.
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