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Crime & Punishment

 
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Astecus, a response to something i read somewhere
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Velicitia
XS Tech
#41 - 2015-01-02 19:35:40 UTC
Haven't read the entire post ... but it sounds like this guy gets EVE.

We need more people like him.

One of the bitter points of a good bittervet is the realisation that all those SP don't really do much, and that the newbie is having much more fun with what little he has. - Tippia
Max Deveron
Deveron Shipyards and Technology
Citizen's Star Republic
#42 - 2015-01-03 05:41:04 UTC
Tengu Grib wrote:


I do however take issue with your numbers on the production value of ships, it seems to me you are treating minerals mined as free, but they really aren't, they have an opportunity cost of market value. If you ignore that you will quickly find you'd make more money just selling the minerals and not building anything.

But that's a debate for another time.

See you in space.

-Tengu



Ok, ok i was just a little off.
But i did go an experiment and i must say you are evil sir cause i went dusted off 2 of my old miner alts by not using the toons i usually do on those accounts.
Here are my numbers:

Rich Plag 5,000 batches total (35,645,000 Isk worth)
Massive Scordite 1,166 batches ( 34,402,446 Isk worth)
Pyroxeres: 5,833 batches (36,345,174 Isk worth)

Total worth: 106,392,640 Isk

Minerals:
Tritanium: 5,135,356 (31,531,085.84 Isk)
Pyerite: 2,498,074 (29,951,907.26 Isk)
Mexallon: 657,801 (39,487,794.03 Isk)
Nocxium: 21,296 (11,569,477.92 Isk)

SubTotal: 112,540,265.05
Market tax: 1,463,023.46
Total: 111,077,241.59 Isk

time to collect: 43 minutes so we say 1 man hour
Now if i was purchasing those rocks or paying a mining fleet: 4 pilots = 27,769,310.39 per (includes Orca)
Orca and me would = 2 pilots so total to payout to others would of been = 55,538,620.78

Now with my BPO I can build 87 catalysts out of hose mins
I spend a lot time missioning and have the zyd and meg on hand from melting down everything.
87 catalysts = 3,640,678 Isk for production costs
add payout = 55,538,620.78

Total = 59,179,298.78

But then because of how i got my zyd and meg for those cats must include the bounty....lets say my avg for a big mission to include salvage time.
59,179,298.78 - 25,000,000 = 34,179,298.78/87 = 392,865.50 Isk per ship
90,172,032.98 - 34,179,298.78 = 55,992,734.11 profit or break even point depending on perspective

But since in reality i did all the work....all the ships had long paid for them selves.
Then Investment cost = 0
Production Cost = 3,640,678 Isk /87 = 41,846.87 per ship
Ship sales = 90,172,032.98 Isk (tax already determined)

Ship Cost/Prodcution Cost = 24.7679 or basically 2476.79% profit

**(rocks were mined, minerals refined......industry tab and wallet information used to calculate all ship/production info...no ships were actually built)**

So little off....but still less than 50,000 per destroyer and yes i could of just sold the minerals....but I am Indy i build stuff...
and again Damn you Sir!! for making me go hardcore mine again even if for just an hour.Big smile
Alana Charen-Teng
Garoun Investment Bank
Gallente Federation
#43 - 2015-01-03 06:30:51 UTC
I didn't bother trying to connect the dots in that poorly formatted wall of numbers. Can anyone confirm or deny whether the OP understands the concept of opportunity cost?
Kaldi Tsukaya
Deveron Shipyards and Technology
Citizen's Star Republic
#44 - 2015-01-03 07:03:41 UTC
Alana Charen-Teng wrote:
I didn't bother trying to connect the dots in that poorly formatted wall of numbers. Can anyone confirm or deny whether the OP understands the concept of opportunity cost?


He does. But as he said, "...i build stuff".

I have no idea how this relates to the thread topic, but dammit if it don't keep him awayBlink
Max Deveron
Deveron Shipyards and Technology
Citizen's Star Republic
#45 - 2015-01-03 07:16:57 UTC
Alana Charen-Teng wrote:
I didn't bother trying to connect the dots in that poorly formatted wall of numbers. Can anyone confirm or deny whether the OP understands the concept of opportunity cost?




87 catalysts would give me plenty of oppurtunities should the need arise, is that worth the cost?
Leto Thule
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#46 - 2015-01-03 07:34:52 UTC
Steppa Musana wrote:
Valkin Mordirc wrote:
And no the game mechanic is not overwhelmingly favour. If you properly tank your freighters/barges and such. You can pretty much avoid all of CODE. ganks. Use DOLTAN, use your DST's and so forth. I have a freighter alt. not once has it been ganked, because I take the precaution to keep it from happening.

Read Veers' posts and you'll see he argues that.

What's pointless is trying to be an anti-ganker. You aren't going to save a dumb freighter pilot or the AFK retriever. It's a waste of time. You'll just end up as loyalmoron's punching bag as he continues his never ending quest of turning CODE conflicts into a high school dramafest.


Loyalmoron? Every time insults are used (and really lame ones at that..) loyal looks better and you guys look worse. Its things like that.... albeit usually much worse... that fuels the CODE. tear machines and by proxy the very "high school drama" that you just referenced.

Thunderdome ringmaster, Community Leader and Lord Inquisitor to the Court of Crime and Punishment
Lady Areola Fappington
#47 - 2015-01-03 07:50:35 UTC
Leto Thule wrote:
Loyalmoron? Every time insults are used (and really lame ones at that..) loyal looks better and you guys look worse. Its things like that.... albeit usually much worse... that fuels the CODE. tear machines and by proxy the very "high school drama" that you just referenced.



Isn't CODE mind control a fun thing. Just the existence of CODE causes people to waste time being concerned about them.

We only have a limited amount of seconds granted to us for existence on this earth. Every second spent being concerned about CODE is a second stolen, that can never be gotten back. It's gone, forever, burned on the pyre that is The New Order.

7.2 CAN I AVOID PVP COMPLETELY? No; there are no systems or locations in New Eden where PvP may be completely avoided. --Eve New Player Guide
Nomis Alexander
Haldskel Corporation
#48 - 2015-01-03 09:18:05 UTC  |  Edited by: Nomis Alexander
Lady Areola Fappington wrote:

We only have a limited amount of seconds granted to us for existence on this earth. Every second spent being concerned about CODE is a second stolen, that can never be gotten back. It's gone, forever, burned on the pyre that is The New Order.


1000 times this.

EvE is a game and, love them or hate them, CODE (and the rest of the New Order) are playing it and having a good time along the way. In contrast, a significant number of AG community members seem riddled with angst and despair.

Please, instead of crying out for 'just one more nerf to hisec', why don't the antigankers simply log into the game and, with a smile instead of a scowl, play Eve; steal the freighter loot, blow up the freighter wrecks, whore on ganker's killmails, infiltrate their corps...just do something that adds content and fun to the sandbox! Then come back here, or to your blog, and tell us the story.

It's a game; play it and have fun!
Veers Belvar
Swordmasters of New Eden
#49 - 2015-01-04 01:03:30 UTC
Concord Guy's Cousin wrote:

Claims that there is no reason to be in a player corp, despite being in one himself; denigrates people who are in NPC corps as worthless....


Roll

Great analysis.....I'm in a 1 man shell tax evasion corp which i fold to wardeccs. That is not really what people mean by being in a player corp. It is a way to essentially be in an npc corp and avoid the 11% tax.
Max Deveron
Deveron Shipyards and Technology
Citizen's Star Republic
#50 - 2015-01-04 01:25:57 UTC
Veers Belvar wrote:
Concord Guy's Cousin wrote:

Claims that there is no reason to be in a player corp, despite being in one himself; denigrates people who are in NPC corps as worthless....


Roll

Great analysis.....I'm in a 1 man shell tax evasion corp which i fold to wardeccs. That is not really what people mean by being in a player corp. It is a way to essentially be in an npc corp and avoid the 11% tax.




Well then if thats the only reason for you to be in or have a corp.....then your useless to the community and should quit trying to adcovate/communicate a certain way of doing things to others......

And why you may ask? because your not here to form a social group, you are not here to play actively with a group of your choosing or some one elses......you are simply here for yourself and yourself only. But many of has have figured that out already.

Veers, EvE will never be, Should never be, a solo game. and hence that is why players are expected and should be willing to police things themselves not some degenerate NPC/admin programmed system like STO, star wars, wow, wot,rifts, or even half breeds like Archage.
And that is the crux of what my letter to Astecus was about.....it is the Players responsibility and only theirs to regulate whatever rules/laws they creae within the game mechanics. Unable to do that, then shouldnt be in a player corp (a social group trying to do things) and in some cases.....shouldnt be here at all because they just dont get it. effort = Fun/Reward and thats it.
Veers Belvar
Swordmasters of New Eden
#51 - 2015-01-04 01:29:41 UTC
Max Deveron wrote:
Veers Belvar wrote:
Concord Guy's Cousin wrote:

Claims that there is no reason to be in a player corp, despite being in one himself; denigrates people who are in NPC corps as worthless....


Roll

Great analysis.....I'm in a 1 man shell tax evasion corp which i fold to wardeccs. That is not really what people mean by being in a player corp. It is a way to essentially be in an npc corp and avoid the 11% tax.




Well then if thats the only reason for you to be in or have a corp.....then your useless to the community and should quit trying to adcovate/communicate a certain way of doing things to others......

And why you may ask? because your not here to form a social group, you are not here to play actively with a group of your choosing or some one elses......you are simply here for yourself and yourself only. But many of has have figured that out already.

Veers, EvE will never be, Should never be, a solo game. and hence that is why players are expected and should be willing to police things themselves not some degenerate NPC/admin programmed system like STO, star wars, wow, wot,rifts, or even half breeds like Archage.
And that is the crux of what my letter to Astecus was about.....it is the Players responsibility and only theirs to regulate whatever rules/laws they creae within the game mechanics. Unable to do that, then shouldnt be in a player corp (a social group trying to do things) and in some cases.....shouldnt be here at all because they just dont get it. effort = Fun/Reward and thats it.


Except that CCP themselves have said given current awoxxing/wardecc mechanics the rational thing to do for highsec players is to be in an npc corp. I'd love to be in a player corp - but if and only if awoxxing, wardeccs, and theft are removed from the game. Until that point I will rationally remain in 1 man/npc corp, and continue playing with others outside the broken corp system.
Max Deveron
Deveron Shipyards and Technology
Citizen's Star Republic
#52 - 2015-01-04 01:35:16 UTC
Veers Belvar wrote:
Max Deveron wrote:
Veers Belvar wrote:
Concord Guy's Cousin wrote:

Claims that there is no reason to be in a player corp, despite being in one himself; denigrates people who are in NPC corps as worthless....


Roll

Great analysis.....I'm in a 1 man shell tax evasion corp which i fold to wardeccs. That is not really what people mean by being in a player corp. It is a way to essentially be in an npc corp and avoid the 11% tax.




Well then if thats the only reason for you to be in or have a corp.....then your useless to the community and should quit trying to adcovate/communicate a certain way of doing things to others......

And why you may ask? because your not here to form a social group, you are not here to play actively with a group of your choosing or some one elses......you are simply here for yourself and yourself only. But many of has have figured that out already.

Veers, EvE will never be, Should never be, a solo game. and hence that is why players are expected and should be willing to police things themselves not some degenerate NPC/admin programmed system like STO, star wars, wow, wot,rifts, or even half breeds like Archage.
And that is the crux of what my letter to Astecus was about.....it is the Players responsibility and only theirs to regulate whatever rules/laws they creae within the game mechanics. Unable to do that, then shouldnt be in a player corp (a social group trying to do things) and in some cases.....shouldnt be here at all because they just dont get it. effort = Fun/Reward and thats it.


Except that CCP themselves have said given current awoxxing/wardecc mechanics the rational thing to do for highsec players is to be in an npc corp. I'd love to be in a player corp - but if and only if awoxxing, wardeccs, and theft are removed from the game. Until that point I will rationally remain in 1 man/npc corp, and continue playing with others outside the broken corp system.


Then why dont you do so? all you have to do is impose some security.
1.) Hire miners looking for a corp and have ways for them to get decent profits while assisting the corp
2,.) Hire missioners
3.) Set a low reasonable tax to provide for any office rents you might incur
4.) Keep all the share to yourself
5.) dont give out full director roles....create dedicated roles and titles. Use the HQ, base, and so forth abilities till they change how roles work to provide limited security.
That will ensure for the most part any finicial destruction to your corp, now as to combat awoxing i would need to test to see if thats an option anymore since they were supposed to get rid of it.
6.) War decs....always have an alt or 2 on standby for things. If you wish to fight off a wardec you will learn really quickly who are willing to actually play EvE and learn all its mechanics and those who do not.
Veers Belvar
Swordmasters of New Eden
#53 - 2015-01-04 01:39:44 UTC
Max Deveron wrote:


Then why dont you do so? all you have to do is impose some security.
1.) Hire miners looking for a corp and have ways for them to get decent profits while assisting the corp
2,.) Hire missioners
3.) Set a low reasonable tax to provide for any office rents you might incur
4.) Keep all the share to yourself
5.) dont give out full director roles....create dedicated roles and titles. Use the HQ, base, and so forth abilities till they change how roles work to provide limited security.
That will ensure for the most part any finicial destruction to your corp, now as to combat awoxing i would need to test to see if thats an option anymore since they were supposed to get rid of it.
6.) War decs....always have an alt or 2 on standby for things. If you wish to fight off a wardec you will learn really quickly who are willing to actually play EvE and learn all its mechanics and those who do not.


Why would I do this? I'm begging to get awoxxed and wardeccs....why would anyone want to join my corp? Everyone is much better off just playing solo and fleeting up when needed.

All wardeccing does is set you up for awoxxing, wardeccs, and theft. It provides literally 0 benefit.

Why on earth would any highsec player WANT to be in a player corp given the current mechanics?
Velicitia
XS Tech
#54 - 2015-01-04 01:50:07 UTC
Veers Belvar wrote:
Max Deveron wrote:


Then why dont you do so? all you have to do is impose some security.
1.) Hire miners looking for a corp and have ways for them to get decent profits while assisting the corp
2,.) Hire missioners
3.) Set a low reasonable tax to provide for any office rents you might incur
4.) Keep all the share to yourself
5.) dont give out full director roles....create dedicated roles and titles. Use the HQ, base, and so forth abilities till they change how roles work to provide limited security.
That will ensure for the most part any finicial destruction to your corp, now as to combat awoxing i would need to test to see if thats an option anymore since they were supposed to get rid of it.
6.) War decs....always have an alt or 2 on standby for things. If you wish to fight off a wardec you will learn really quickly who are willing to actually play EvE and learn all its mechanics and those who do not.


Why would I do this? I'm begging to get awoxxed and wardeccs....why would anyone want to join my corp? Everyone is much better off just playing solo and fleeting up when needed.

All wardeccing does is set you up for awoxxing, wardeccs, and theft. It provides literally 0 benefit.

Why on earth would any highsec player WANT to be in a player corp given the current mechanics?



He has a point ... You'd have to be a special kind of daft to join Veers' corp.

Kane would have a permadec in ... 15 seconds.

However, that's all because you (Veers) seem to go out of your way to annoy people.

I wanna be in a hisec corp, but the problem is they all talk a big game, and then fall apart under the slightest outside pressure. I dec'd a bigger corp, and within days, am getting "wtf, pick on us pro pvp people."

Hint guys - I'm a small fish in a big pond, and want to have a challenge (which these guys have provided a few times, even got a km outta me) ... Not go do something stupid like dec a group that can wipe the floor with me before i even load grid on the station undock.

One of the bitter points of a good bittervet is the realisation that all those SP don't really do much, and that the newbie is having much more fun with what little he has. - Tippia
Michele Bachmann
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#55 - 2015-01-04 03:59:05 UTC  |  Edited by: Michele Bachmann
What should concords response be to the white collar crime of tax evasion of the variety Veers is advocating?

Increase to his subscription or plex price would be appropriate imho
Veers Belvar
Swordmasters of New Eden
#56 - 2015-01-04 04:09:48 UTC
Michele Bachmann wrote:
What should concords response be to the white collar crime of tax evasion of the variety Veers is advocating?

Increase to his subscription or plex price would be appropriate imho


Hey, I'd be a big fan of getting rid of all highsec awoxxing and wars so that it becomes rational to join highsec player corps. Until that happens I would encourage everyone to be in 1 man shell tax evasion corps...which is the rational response to the broken mechanics.
Lin Suizei
#57 - 2015-01-04 04:19:33 UTC
Velicitia wrote:
However, that's all because you (Veers) seem to go out of your way to annoy people.

I wanna be in a hisec corp, but the problem is they all talk a big game, and then fall apart under the slightest outside pressure. I dec'd a bigger corp, and within days, am getting "wtf, pick on us pro pvp people."


Veers isn't wrong though. Consider your average elite highsec PvE expert: having invested several billion ISK into his mission-mobile of choice, he is completely uninterested in having any kind of pewing with other players, and cannot fathom the thought that principles might be more important than ISK to the ganker.

For such a player, why would he join a highsec corp, when he can create a tax evasion corp and just nullify incoming wardecs with the drop-and-reform technique?

In the dog-eat-dog world of New Eden, isn't this player the best player, abusing all broken mechanics as much as possible until CCP's hand is forced into fixing it, to render himself almost invulnerable in highsec?

Lol I can't delete my forum sig.
Max Deveron
Deveron Shipyards and Technology
Citizen's Star Republic
#58 - 2015-01-05 03:24:11 UTC
Veers Belvar wrote:
Michele Bachmann wrote:
What should concords response be to the white collar crime of tax evasion of the variety Veers is advocating?

Increase to his subscription or plex price would be appropriate imho


Hey, I'd be a big fan of getting rid of all highsec awoxxing and wars so that it becomes rational to join highsec player corps. Until that happens I would encourage everyone to be in 1 man shell tax evasion corps...which is the rational response to the broken mechanics.



Which broken mechanics?
Max Deveron
Deveron Shipyards and Technology
Citizen's Star Republic
#59 - 2015-01-05 03:29:14 UTC
Lin Suizei wrote:
Velicitia wrote:
However, that's all because you (Veers) seem to go out of your way to annoy people.

I wanna be in a hisec corp, but the problem is they all talk a big game, and then fall apart under the slightest outside pressure. I dec'd a bigger corp, and within days, am getting "wtf, pick on us pro pvp people."


Veers isn't wrong though. Consider your average elite highsec PvE expert: having invested several billion ISK into his mission-mobile of choice, he is completely uninterested in having any kind of pewing with other players, and cannot fathom the thought that principles might be more important than ISK to the ganker.

For such a player, why would he join a highsec corp, when he can create a tax evasion corp and just nullify incoming wardecs with the drop-and-reform technique?

In the dog-eat-dog world of New Eden, isn't this player the best player, abusing all broken mechanics as much as possible until CCP's hand is forced into fixing it, to render himself almost invulnerable in highsec?



1.) because he said as much wanting to be part of a corp....and if its his own corp then he needs to put in effort to make it work.

2.) no not the best player....as player = person behind the computer instead of character this person is pretty much the same child that cant get the concept of hop skotch down and runs crying when the other kids throw his ass out of the game to the nearest adult looking for a cookie because they were mean to him.
Alana Charen-Teng
Garoun Investment Bank
Gallente Federation
#60 - 2015-01-05 15:36:19 UTC
Lin Suizei wrote:
(words)


Welcome back, Lin Suizei! :)